Catholics, do you know what documents they mean?

[Syele]

I was reading some “positions” statements for the Assembly of God today and ran across this quote:

The General Council of the Assemblies of God has historically opposed the consumption of alcohol in any form. Early documents of the church declare, without reservation or compromise, a position of total abstinence.

They do not say what early documents of the Church they are referring to. I know the Catholics here are more well versed in the early Church Fathers writings than I am, do any of you know what documents they are referring to? (I is possible I suppose that they mean early Assembly of God Documents but I doubt it.)

 

[Della]

That you’d have to ask them, I’m afraid. Not that it is impossible that they may have found a line somewhere in the early Church to support their abstinence, but it isn’t a biblical position, and that, I would think, would be enough to show that total abstinence isn’t necessary.

 

[IsMiseSteise]

I don’t think it has anything to do with Catholic documents since wine has been a large part of life since the very beginning and through the ages. It must have to do with the Assemblies of God documents.

I’m sure that someone around here can give you a better answer.

 

[Syele]

it isn’t a biblical position, and that, I would think, would be enough to show that total abstinence isn’t necessary.

I’m with you on that point, I was just trying to understand thier justification of the position. Being as how my own ‘denomination’ is not present locally, AoG is the closest to it so I have been attending there. I’m finding that “close” is still far away.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Considering that the use of wine in the liturgy has been there since Jesus Himself blessed it and gave it to His disciples, I hardly think that there would be any documentation anywhere in any shape or form that would call for total abstention from wine!!

Now, OTOH, I’ll bet these people found some of those cute little gnostic snippets etc (you know, the people who felt that all ‘matter’ is evil, and only the ‘spirit’ is good), and took those documents and. . .well. . .

You see what happens when you don’t listen to the approved authority for interpretation of Scripture?

 

[jbuck919]

Total prohibition in the Western sense is strictly an American (meaning United States) phenomenon of the last couple of centuries that found its way into the belief system of certain sects. You will find nothing supporting it in ancient documents (Judaeo-Christian ones, anyway) produced at a time when such an idea would have been considered laughable. Jesus did not perform his first miracle by turning water into Welch’s grape juice.

Having said that, it is not necessarily a bad idea (I mean as an individual decision), for the whole phenomenon of prohibition did not take place in a vacuum. The US was demonstrably the most drunken nation the world had ever known for a period of several generations. The statistics on the per capita consumption of hard liquor in the 19th century are hair raising. It got tied up with social prejudices (including against the Irish), but nobody was imagining that the Demon Rum and John Barleycorn were realistic embodiments of a problem.

As recently as my teenage years the CYO would raffle off a “basket of joy,” meaning that someone was buying liquor for teenagers to give as a raffle prize to raise money. More recently than that, I have been in a parish hall the day after St. Patrick’s Day when it smelled like a bar. Is having a little nip against Catholic teaching? No, of course not. But the depredations wrought by habitual drunkenness, collective and individual, which have too often been enabled by the church, have brought untold harm. We can take a page from the book of our Baptist brethren on this one.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

The recent craze to completely shun alcohol in certain districts of evangelical Christianity is, as others have mentioned, a relatlively new phenomenon. If you read history, you will discover that many Christian groups that you would not expect to consume alcohol in fact did so. The Amish and Mennonites, regarded by some as “puritanical,” in fact at one time socially consumed alcoholic beverages, even in America. At least, that’s what I’ve read. What I do know is that there is no Scriptural passage that rejects the consumption of alcohol. Against drunkeness and uncalled for revelry, yes; against a little drinking to make the hearts of men merry, no.

 

[tequilamac]

I was reading some “positions” statements for the Assembly of God today and ran across this quote:

They do not say what early documents of the Church they are referring to. I know the Catholics here are more well versed in the early Church Fathers writings than I am, do any of you know what documents they are referring to? (I is possible I suppose that they mean early Assembly of God Documents but I doubt it.)

That is very unlikely. If they had a statement about gluttony, one would understand. But in a world without refrigeration, food preservation, and water miles and miles away in a well, to make wine off limits would absolutely condemn people to the most grisly of deaths.
Even the Egyptians we can thank for beer. And then of course we can consider st. Bridgid and her lake of beer.

 

[Della]

I’m with you on that point, I was just trying to understand thier justification of the position. Being as how my own ‘denomination’ is not present locally, AoG is the closest to it so I have been attending there. I’m finding that “close” is still far away.

I understand your dilemma. I was a member of the Assemblies of God for many years and it loosened up quite a lot over the 20 years I was a member. These days most take a “don’t ask, don’t tell” kind of stance on many things that were once big issues from movies to make-up, music/dancing to reading material, dress and jewelry. If they are your only choice in your area, just don’t drink in their presence. I doubt anyone will even ask you about it, though. If you feel you can’t do that then find a church that isn’t so restrictive in which to worship–that’s all I can suggest apart from looking into the Catholic Church (you knew I had to include that, I’m sure )

 

[Syele]

I understand your dilemma. I was a member of the Assemblies of God for many years and it loosened up quite a lot over the 20 years I was a member. These days most take a “don’t ask, don’t tell” kind of stance on many things that were once big issues from movies to make-up, music/dancing to reading material, dress and jewelry. If they are your only choice in your area, just don’t drink in their presence. I doubt anyone will even ask you about it, though.

Yeah no one has said anything to me about it so far. I’m an extremely light drinker anyhow (About one or two drinks a year). I normally don’t wear makeup (I’m allergic) so that isn’t a problem. But there have been some other things I have trouble with there (Doctrines about speaking in tongues.) I figure if I know about them in advance it won’t broadside me when someone brings it up.

If you feel you can’t do that then find a church that isn’t so restrictive in which to worship–that’s all I can suggest apart from looking into the Catholic Church (you knew I had to include that, I’m sure )

I knew that was comming from someone soon. LOL I can handle the differences, but I do like to know where they are coming from and where they are getting their arguments in advance.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Is having a little nip against Catholic teaching? No, of course not. But the depredations wrought by habitual drunkenness, collective and individual, which have too often been enabled by the church, have brought untold harm. We can take a page from the book of our Baptist brethren on this one.

The Church does not enable drunkeness, it has always been a sin. The problem really is that people don’t understand the line between moderation and drunkeness-in both extremes. Some folks think they aren’t drunk unless they are passed out in their own vomit and some folks think they committed a mortal sin of drunkeness if they started feeling warm.

The Baptists are the last ones we should be learning from, at least the Baptists that seem to predominate. Scrupulously avoiding alcohol as if it were the devil itself is rediculous.

 

[tequilamac]

I was reading some “positions” statements for the Assembly of God today and ran across this quote:

They do not say what early documents of the Church they are referring to. I know the Catholics here are more well versed in the early Church Fathers writings than I am, do any of you know what documents they are referring to? (I is possible I suppose that they mean early Assembly of God Documents but I doubt it.)

there is a total abstinence from alcohol that is biblical, though it isn’t from the early Church Fathers. The nazirites, which you can find in Numbers, particularly Numbers 6 and in todays readings in Sirach and Hannah devoting her son son to God as a nazirite. The practice of becoming a nazirite is old Judaism, and includes the shaving of the head, and complete abstinence from any fruit of the grapevine for a designated period which could be as long as six months to a lifetime. As a nazirite, one was completely consecrated to God and followed these showing rules. These showing rules or Old Law were no longer necessary with the coming of Christ. Baptism in His Name and belief in Him and the following of His Commandments replaced the showing laws of the Nazirites under Moses. Perhaps they mean the early Church Fathers, Moses and Aaron, rather than the early Christian Fathers for you will find that many of the practices of extreme Christian fundamentalism including the Assembly of God Churches, adhere more to the teachings of the fulfillment of the Laws under Moses rather than the radical Christianity of Paul who found adherence to the old Mosaic laws a sign of denial of Christ. And this law of abstinence concerning the Nazirites was given by God directly to Moses in Numbers. It is a problem also with the Christian Zionists who demand a complete rebuild of the Temple Mount in the physical sense as a sign of the coming of Christ. Most Christian fundamentalist churches put extreme stress on the Mosaic laws and I would assume the Assembly of God churches are stressing the Nazirite laws of total abstinence found in Numbers 6.

 

[Alexius]

I highly doubt that if Christ wanted alcohol prohibited in his Church, he would have miraculously changed water into wine at the wedding in Cana. He probably would have changed water into…well…grape juice !!!

 

[Hesychios]

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the grape juice ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no juice.” (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”

His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it. And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become juice, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves good juice first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good grape juice until now!”

Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him. John Chap 2:1 - 11

 

[Alexius]

Hesychios: On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the grape juice ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no juice.” (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”

His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it. And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become juice, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves good juice first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good grape juice until now!”

Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.

The NAV = “Non - Alcohol Version!”

 

[tequilamac]

None of my family were pioneers into AA. I wonder if things might have changed if St. Brigid had prayed for a lake of near beer rather than the stout.

 

[goitalone]

I was reading some “positions” statements for the Assembly of God today and ran across this quote:

They do not say what early documents of the Church they are referring to. I know the Catholics here are more well versed in the early Church Fathers writings than I am, do any of you know what documents they are referring to? (I is possible I suppose that they mean early Assembly of God Documents but I doubt it.)

Does it matter really?

Bible says it harmful, and we all know it is harmful, so why try and find ways to make it RIGHT to drink it, when the Bible, and our own God given reasoning tells us it is bad to drink any at all…unless it is grape juice (unfermanted wine).

Listen to the Lord your God people!

 

[Mirdath]

Here’s one for you: 1 Timothy 5:23 – Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

 

[cazayoux]

Bible says it harmful,

Do tell. Where does the bible say wine is harmful?

 

[simbagizmo]

From my understanding, the wine that was used in Scripture contained less then 3 percent alcohol. This was actually wine mixed with water. The strong drink reference in Scripture was unmixed wine that contains 3 to 9 percent alcohol. This being true, anything over 3 percent alcohol would be considered strong drink according to Scripture.