Catholics follow the teachings of men rather than the Holy Spirit. Or do they...?

[RNRobert]

How many times have we have Catholics heard this accusation? Many non-Catholics (some folks I’ve debated with on this forum take umbrage with the term “Protestant” despite the fact that the denomination they belong to didn’t exist prior to Luther’s revolt in 1521; so I’ll just say “non-Catholic” instead”) accuse Catholics of replacing the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit with “the traditions of men.” At least two different members on this forum have accused me, as a Catholic, of substituting the inspiration of the Holy Spirit with the teachings of men. One even asked me, if the Pope was in one corner and the Holy Spirit in another, which would I choose?

The problem with this attitude is that it takes an either/or approach to the faith. Catholics, on the other hand, take a both/and approach. We certainly do follow the Scriptures (heck, it’s our book to begin with) and all Catholics are expected to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit (we receive him at confirmation, so we sure ought to be listening to them), but we need to make sure that the practice of our faith and our interpretations of scripture is in line with the Magisterium.

But is this biblical? Absolutely! Throughout Scripture, we see that while God can and does speak to people directly, far more often he uses certain men to speak to others. In Exodus, God used Moses to lead the Jews out of slavery into the Promised Land. In later years God sent the prophets to condemn the idolatry and pride of the Jews in an attempt to bring them back to true worship of the Lord.

But what about the New Testament? Some non-Catholics seem to think that the New Covenant, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, meant that we could communicate with God directly without having to go through other men (they often quote 1 Timothy 2:5 to support their position). However, nowhere in the Gospels or Epistles are we told that we can be spiritual Lone Rangers (or to borrow the U.S. Army slogan, “a denomination of one,” as some non-Catholics on this board seem to be), interpreting the Scriptures as we see fit. In the Gospels, Jesus did not give his teaching authority to all and sundry, but primarily to the Twelve, and later to a select group of seventy-two disciples. In the book of Acts, we see the Apostles appointing deacons to take care of church matters not related to preaching and teaching (6:1-6) and holding a council to decide what should be done regarding Gentile circumcision (chapter 15). In these two passages, we can see the genesis of the institutional church. St. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 12:28-29 that the members of the Body of Christ have differing functions. In the various epistles, when the writers commanded their audience to excommunicate a disobedient member (1 Corinthian 5:4-5) or to keep away from false teachers, they were not making suggestions, but giving an order and expecting to be OBEYED.

The question remains: What happened to this teaching authority when the last of the Apostles died? Did it simply pass from them into their writings? For Catholics (and Orthodox) the answer is clear: they choose successors to carry on their work. One may ask another question: If the Bible and the Holy Spirit is all that is necessary to be a good Christian, why did Christ bother with the Apostles: why did he not simply hand out pocket New Testaments and tell them to ask the Holy Spirit to help them understand it? If that is all that is needed, why are there so many “Bible-only” groups who claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit yet cannot agree on what the Scripture says? For that matter, if the Holy Spirit is all that is needed to guide us (as some non-Catholics claim) why bother with the Scriptures?

Continued…

 

[RNRobert]

Concluded…

It must be remembered that Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He attacked the Pharisees often for their spiritual deadness and adding man-made rules to the commandments, but nowhere does he free his listeners from disobeying them (see Matthew 23: 1-3). Another telling passage is John 11:49-52, where Caiphas makes a prophecy about Jesus so that the Jewish nation would not perish. He is able to make this prophecy not because of his personal holiness (far from it) but because, as verse 51 puts it, he was the high priest that year. In other words, his ability to prophesy was due to HIS OFFICE. The Holy Spirit worked through the Jewish high priest in the same manner that the Holy Spirit works through the Pope and bishops. Their ability to lead the church is not dependant on their personal holiness (although they are called to a high to degree of holiness, as we all are), but on their position. This is important to remember when our church leaders don’t perform their duties as they ought. As Frank Sheed writes in Theology for Beginners, when we become Catholic, we are joined to Christ, not the men who happen to run it at the time. However, just like the Pharisees who “sat on the seat of Moses” in Jesus day, they do hold a lawful office and need to be obeyed, regardless of how unedifying their personal lives may be.

In conclusion, I’d like to say that the “replacing the Holy Spirit with men” argument is one of the sillier arguments posited against the Church. When you think about it, all of us, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or whatever, owe much of our faith to the “teachings of men.” We first hear the Gospel from men (or women), whether it be a tract, revival meeting, radio preacher or televangelist. The Holy Spirit did not drop the Holy Bible into our laps directly from Heaven; rather, he used men to write it, collate it preserve it and print it. I recall reading a story in Kevin Orlin Johnson’s book Why Do Catholics Do That? about the Rabbi Hillel, who died when Jesus was a boy. A Gentile came to him for instruction, and said, “I’ll believe you about the written Torah."

 

[PhilVaz]

Naw, Roman Catholics and Orthodox too still follow the traditions of men rather than the Holy Spirit. And Matt 15 still applies to them. But of the 20,000 Prot denoms or so, about 17,000 are following the Holy Spirit, the others the tradition of men. Just kidding Good 2-part post.

Phil P

 

[Erich]

Luke 10:16 says it pretty succinctly, I think:

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

 

[MariaG]

I find it completely ironic when the Catholic Church gets accussed of not being biblical. Yet they have to jump through hoops explaining why John 21 is meant to be go and teach forgiveness instead of go and forgive. Why we are saved by faith alone, yet James says we are justified by our works. The list goes on and on. I came out of a Bible alone Church, and guess what? I consider the best Bible church out there to be the Catholic Church. Fundamental to the core!

God Bless,

Maria

 

[RNRobert]

OOPS!

I was cutting and pasting this post from a Word document, and i just realised I clipped off the last part of the post about the Rabbi Hillel. Here it is in it’s entirety:

I recall reading a story in Kevin Orlin Johnson’s book Why Do Catholics Do That? about the Rabbi Hillel, who died when Jesus was a boy. A Gentile came to him for instruction, and said, “I’ll believe you about the written Torah, but not about the oral. Take me on as a convert on condition that you teach me the written Torah only.” The rabbi agreed, and spent the first day teaching the man the Hebrew alphabet. The next day the rabbi again taught the man the Hebrew alphabet, but in reverse. When the man complained, Hillel said, “If you have depend on me to teach you the alphabet, how much more must you depend on me for the interpretation of the Torah.”

Hope it makes more sense now!

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Catholics are expected to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit (we receive him at confirmation,.

Hi RNRobert,
John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I choose you… "
You say you receive the Holy Spirit at confirmation.
This is not so.
You can not come to God. God chooses. You can not come to God through good works, only by election.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but you cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
The sequence is the Holy Spirit comes to you and leads you to Jesus. When you believe, you are born again and the Holy Spirit and Jesus indwell in your heart. If you are not a tare, you followed the Holy Spirit to Jesus.You WERE following the Holy Spirit, why would you stop and make Him subject to your earthly church. Where is your faith in His ability? Did He go and learn at the synagogues? Why cant you follow Jesus. Do you believe He was fully man? If yes, He did perfectly, why cant you at least try each and every day and practise practise practise. He wont disappoint you.

If the pope Honorius was in one corner and the Holy Spirit was in the other corner who would you choose?

Believe me RNRobert, there is no doubt if you are awake to the Holy Spirit.
This comes back to another post of mine. What is the role of the church on earth? For there is a rightful place for all in God’s kingdom.

Some non-Catholics seem to think that the New Covenant, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, meant that we could communicate with God directly without having to go through other men

1Timothy2:5 “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.”
Surely you believe this. Or are you saying it is wrong?
God has used many ways to teach of Himself and now we are in the age of the Spirit, Our leader is a Spirit. We are living in a spiritual kingdom.

What happened to this teaching authority

The bible is so full that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Why not try? Following the Holy Spirit isn’t against the teachings of the Roman catholic church. In all sincerity pray for the moving of the Holy Spirit and ask for Him to lead you. Tell God you will submit to the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit to guide you, you are missing out on the fullness of joy in being a christian. He makes christianity a joy and comfort, and gives us peace and security. Christ was being loving when He sent the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit helps you do all things. Catch a bus, get a seat on a bus, find a car park, dont be late, avoid a traffic jam every little conceivable thing, He is there making your life easier so that in the end you just give up worrying. Life is beautiful with Him leading your life. The president of the United States was never guarded so lovingly or perfectly. The only thing that can happen to you when you are under His guardian ship is what Jesus wants to happen for your growth. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[RNRobert]

Hello Edwin!

edwinG:

You say you receive the Holy Spirit at confirmation.

This is not so.
You can not come to God. God chooses. You can not come to God through good works, only by election.

Ye know not the Scriptures.
**While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came [down] to Ephesus where he found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They answered him, “We have never even heard there was a holy Spirit.” He said, “How were you baptized?” They replied, with the Baptism of John." Paul then said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentence, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. ****And when Paul laid [his] hands on them the holy Spirit cam upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. **Acts 19:1-6)

You notice that even though the men were believers, they did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul LAID HANDS ON THEM. This is reflected in the Catholic rite of confirmation, where the believer is anointed with oil, the way priests and kings were anointed in the Old Testament (This represents the believer having a share in the priesthood and kingship of Jesus).

---

EdwinG:

You WERE following the Holy Spirit, why would you stop and make Him subject to your earthly church.

Where is your faith in His ability? Did He go and learn at the synagogues? Why cant you follow Jesus. Do you believe He was fully man? If yes, He did perfectly, why cant you at least try each and every day and practise practise practise. He wont disappoint you.
Edwin, Edwin, Edwin. You just don’t get it. The “earthly church” isn’t the creation of me or any priest, bishop or Pope. The church is Jesus creation, and he set leaders over the church to act as shepherds.

EdwinG:

If the pope Honorius was in one corner and the Holy Spirit was in the other corner who would you choose?

Let me put it to you another way. If you lived in New Testament times, and Peter or Paul or another apostle gave you a command, would you obey them, or would you tell them “I have the Holy Spirit, I don’t need to listen to you.” Keep in mind, that when New Testament writers commanded something (like when Paul told the Corinthians to expel the man sleeping with his stepmother in 1 Cor. 5:1-5), they expected to be obeyed.

continued…

]

 

[RNRobert]

Conclusion…

The problem Edwin, is that you see the situation as an either/or, while the Catholic position is both/and. We should listen to the Holy Spirit always, but we must listen to the shepherds that Jesus placed over us, or else we risk falling into spiritual delusion.
Let me put it another way. In Matthew 16: 19, Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Do you realize what this means? In Isaiah 22:20-23, God says to Eliakin that He will “place the key of the house of David on his shoulder, when he opens, none shall shut, when he shuts, nonje shall open.” Now, Eliakin wasn’t the king, Hezekiah was. Eliakin was what is known in other countries as the prime minister. The prime minister wasn’t the king, but he spoke with the king’s authority. So, in the case of Matthew 16, Jesus was making Peter his prime minister, and gave him the power to bind and loose. He is to be obeyed as you obey Jesus, and you disregard him at your peril (“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me.” -Luke 1:16). I listen to the Pope because he is the successor to Peter and Jesus gave HIM (not me or you) the keys to the kingdom.

As for 1 Tim 2:5, I do not consider it mistaken. Jesus is the only one who could have paid the price for our sins. However, as I have demonstrated above, Jesus delegated his authority to certain men to be shepherds for his flock.

Edwin, I wasn’t always a Catholic. I had the Holy Spirit, but I didn’t belong to his Body, the Church. Remember, being a Christian is not like joining the US Army. We are NOT called to be “a denomination of one” but to come together in "One body and one spirit…One Lord, One faith, One baptism. (Ephesians 4:4-5).

I ask you to seriously consider the claims of the Catholic Church. By joining you sacrifice nothing, but gain so much more by being joined to Christ’s body.

Your in Jesus,

Robert

 

[RNRobert]

MariaG:

I find it completely ironic when the Catholic Church gets accussed of not being biblical. Yet they have to jump through hoops explaining why John 21 is meant to be go and teach forgiveness instead of go and forgive. Why we are saved by faith alone, yet James says we are justified by our works. The list goes on and on. I came out of a Bible alone Church, and guess what? I consider the best Bible church out there to be the Catholic Church. Fundamental to the core!

God Bless,

Maria

What I also find ironic is that the fundamentalists who scream the loudest about Catholic ‘traditions of men’ then turn around and impose on their members rules that are found nowhere in the Bible! Examples: No drinking (I wonder what a Baptist would have done at Cana ), no smoking, no caffeine, various dietary laws (like the SDAs- I thought Jesus said it was what came out of a man, not what went in him, that made him unclean ), rules against movies, TV, cards or dancing, etc.

 

[rwoehmke]

Paul says , "Do you not know you are temples of the Holy Spirit. When we are baptized we are baptized in Spirit and Truth. The Lord takes up a dwelling place within us and through His Graces we are guided in our lives. Scripture and Tradition play a role in that. When we think the Spirit is speaking to us(individually) in Scripture we need to check with Tradition to see if this is just us talking to ourselves or are we being brought to truth. It is the Body of Christ the Church which guides us in all these things. It can be fatal to our salvation to “go it alone.” Confirmation enhances these gifts of the Spirit so that we can take our proper place in the Body of Christ, the Church.

 

[RNRobert]

rwoehmke:

Paul says , "Do you not know you are temples of the Holy Spirit. When we are baptized we are baptized in Spirit and Truth. The Lord takes up a dwelling place within us and through His Graces we are guided in our lives. Scripture and Tradition play a role in that. When we think the Spirit is speaking to us(individually) in Scripture we need to check with Tradition to see if this is just us talking to ourselves or are we being brought to truth. It is the Body of Christ the Church which guides us in all these things. It can be fatal to our salvation to “go it alone.” Confirmation enhances these gifts of the Spirit so that we can take our proper place in the Body of Christ, the Church.

This is what I was trying to get through to Edwin (both here and on another thread).

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Scripture may be divinely inspired, but it is not God; it is a vestige of God. Therefore, unlike God, it cannot behave interactively to see that it is interpreted correctly.

That is why we must be transformed. Through transforming union, and not literal interpretation, we become more like Christ in heart and in mind, and the truth in terms of what we are called to do and what we aren’t.

Literal interpretation is the most “surface” level of encounter with God through the scriptures. Deeper levels are the allegorical meaning, often defined by the Church, one other level I forgot about, and the deepest level which is Divine Union. If we allow the Holy Spirit to transform us, then we do not need the Church to tell us what is right or wrong on a day to day basis because we will have internalized the two greatest commandments, although we would be foolish to ignore her teachings for a number of reasons I dare not guess at just yet.

There is no “interpretation” of love. There are descriptions of characteristics of love, but those descriptions only help guide on in judging whether love abounds; they do not define it.

Alan

 

[edwinG]

HI RNRobert,
thank you for the beautiful and loving way in which you answered.

RNRobert:

Hello Edwin!
Ye know not the Scriptures.
**“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They answered him, “We have never even heard there was a holy Spirit.” He said, “How were you baptized?” They replied, with the Baptism of John." Paul then said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentence, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. ****And when Paul laid [his] hands on them the holy Spirit cam upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. **Acts 19:1-6)

You notice that even though the men were believers, they did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul LAID HANDS ON THEM. This is reflected in the Catholic rite of confirmation /QUOTE]

Robert I dont understand why you would compare the Baptism of John( of repentance) with a baptism that came after Christ. Matthew 28:20 " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
and Mark 16:16 " He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." 17 " And these signs etc etc etc.
No these people were only baptised, an action to prove their belief. No confirmation was necessary. Maybe that is a “man rule” I do not know.

Edwin, Edwin, Edwin. You just don’t get it. The “earthly church” isn’t the creation of me or any priest, bishop or Pope. The church is Jesus creation, and he set leaders over the church to act as shepherds.

I

I do get it completely.I agree with you. I dont agree with the role the church has to play. I dont agree with the unconditional submission to men as you do. I Thess 5:21 " Test all things; hold fast what is good" why test anything if you can act on the testing?
Look most of this is off the point. Most of what the church says and does is beautiful. I am talking about you. Your individual day to day work for Christ. And without this active role of the Holy Spirit in your life you are missing out on Him as your comforter. He brings so so so so very much into your life. Joy and peace, security, help etc. He is constantly leading you in a loving way. He is your invisible barrier against all the world except that which is necessary to keep you going in His direction, and to build your faith, love Holy Fear ( like 2 Samuel 6:9) and reverence etc. You have come out of the world in so far as you are a member of the Kingdom of God. Start looking for the real joy etc of being a Christian.

. If you lived in New Testament times, and Peter or Paul gave you a command, would you obey them, or would you tell them “I have the Holy Spirit, I don’t need to listen to you.” Keep in mind, that when New Testament writers commanded something (like when Paul told the Corinthians to expel the man sleeping with his stepmother in 1 Cor. 5:1-5), they expected to be obeyed.

Peter, Paul or apostles had signs showing they were appointed and followed the Holy Spirit just as Christ followed the Holy Spirit. What signs does your pope have to show that his actions are led by the Holy Spirit. My answer, I would follow the lead of Peter or Paul or apostles.See Mark 16:17 To help you I ask if Honorious was in one corner and Paul ( not the leader) was in another corner who would you follow?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

Hi RNRobert,

I am struggling with computers. Some of my answer in the preceding post ( my first answer) is buried in your text. I hope you re- read your first text in my answer to you so you can read my reply.
I am sorry my answers are so difficult to follow at times.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwin Ghttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Conclusion…

The problem Edwin, is that you see the situation as an either/or, while the Catholic position is both/and.

The problem is , I am not explaining myself very well. It is not either /or or both/and.
The problem is the role of the church and the role of the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus check what the Holy Spirit was telling Him.He was fully human. Did He go to the synagogues and check even though Christ said we were to follow the synagogues’s teachings. ( not false teachings but to check the word) See again I Thess5:21)

We should listen to the Holy Spirit always, but we must listen to the shepherds that Jesus placed over us, or else we risk falling into spiritual delusion.

I see what you write Robert, but can you give me some examples of how you personally listen to the Holy Spirit and what actions follow so I can understand. Again Thess 5:21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.” Why obey this scripture. Just ask the demoninational church, especially the Roman Catholic church because when you dont understand you follow the earthly church because of your vow of submission to men.

Let me put it another way. In Matthew 16: 19, Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Do you realize what this means? In Isaiah 22:20-23, God says to Eliakin that He will "place the key of the house of David on his shoulder.

This is an area we will never agree on. The keys of binding or loosening is given to all apostles.

As for 1 Tim 2:5, I do not consider it mistaken. Jesus is the only one who could have paid the price for our sins. However, as I have demonstrated above, Jesus delegated his authority to certain men to be shepherds for his flock.

1Tim 2:5 For their is one God and one Mediator between between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
This passage is mediation not payment of price of sin. Talk about Jesus as mediator the only one. Where does the bible say that Jesus and an earthly church is mediator. This is what I am talking about the role of the earthly church and the Holy Spirit.

Edwin, I wasn’t always a Catholic. I had the Holy Spirit, but I didn’t belong to his Body, the Church. Remember, being a Christian is not like joining the US Army. We are NOT called to be “a denomination of one” but to come together in "One body and one spirit…One Lord, One faith, One baptism. (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Robert, what are you telling me? ““I had the Holy Spirit, but I didn’t belong to His body.”” You can decide if you want to join the US Army. You can not decide if you want to become a member of His body. He chooses you. You can not choose Him.

I ask you to seriously consider the claims of the Catholic Church. By joining you sacrifice nothing, but gain so much more by being joined to Christ’s body.

If I joined the Catholic Church, I would be accepting Total Submission to men, in all things. This would cause doubt in my heart. And doubt itself is a sin, as it is a lack of faith.
In a whisper I ask you, how many members in the Roman Catholic church dont agree with the church 100%. They are against their vow. They have doubts. The church is causing sin because of this requirement. Being under a law creates sin. Do you understand the meaning ot the testaments?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Hi rwoehmke,
Thanks for the post

rwoehmke]Paul says , "Do you not know you are temples of the Holy Spirit. When we are baptized we are baptized in Spirit and Truth. The Lord takes up a dwelling place within us and through His Graces we are guided in our lives. Scripture and Tradition play a role in that. When we think the Spirit is speaking to us(individually) in Scripture we need to check with

I agree with this. Note Robert that on baptism not confirmation we receive the Holy Spirit. Now I do not want to go on indefinitely about what is and what isnt tradition as it will go no where. I trust in Christ that the scripture we have is His word. Now I know that the Catholic Church has some extra books and some extra words in Daniel. I can not comment on those extra words and books but I know my postion in Christ and how much the Holy Spirit is in my life. Therefore I know in every portion of my heart that nothing else is necessary, scripture wise, than what I have. I know this because of the Holy Spirit. As I am just a person the same as you, I KNOW you dont need all of that tradition that has filled up some huge intelluctual void. The more extras you have the more chance of being led astray.

Tradition to see if this is just us talking to ourselves or are we being brought to truth. It is the Body of Christ the Church which guides us in all these things. It can be fatal to our salvation to “go it alone.” Confirmation enhances these gifts of the Spirit so that we can take our proper place in the Body of Christ, the Church

You only need the scripture to see. Is your scripture so lacking that you need tradition to check. It is not the body of christ, the earthly church that guides you. It is the Holy Spirit. Did the synagogues guide Jesus. He was fullly man. The old testament was correct. Jesus testified to it. No, He did not go to the synagogues. I sometimes doubt that Roman Catholics believe that Christ was fully man. You seem to think He had some partiality shown to Him. No one, especially me is suggesting to “go it alone” . Why talk like that. The Holy Spirit and scripture and your church.But not not not 100% submission to men.
“Confirmation enhances gifts”. Is this scripture or tradition?
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Note Robert that on baptism not confirmation we receive the Holy Spirit.

On baptism AND on confirmation we receive the Holy Spirit.

“for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:16-17)

No, He did not go to the synagogues.

“And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.” (Mt 4:23)

“And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.” (Lk 4:16)

I sometimes doubt that Roman Catholics believe that Christ was fully man.

Jesus is fully man and fully God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

edwinG:

If I joined the Catholic Church, I would be accepting Total Submission to men, in all things. This would cause doubt in my heart. And doubt itself is a sin, as it is a lack of faith.
In a whisper I ask you, how many members in the Roman Catholic church dont agree with the church 100%. They are against their vow. They have doubts. The church is causing sin because of this requirement. Being under a law creates sin. Do you understand the meaning ot the testaments?

Dear Edwin,

Do you think submitting to a wordly government creates sin for you? If not, then why can you not look at the Church as another step “toward” God’s government even if you don’t believe she rules Christ’s kingdom with His infallibility? Do you agree that she is at least 99% on the mark with faith and morals, and do you accept that early Catholics actually wrote the words in the Bible? Do you know of another denomination that you believe is more spirit-led, or do you believe in group religion at all?

By the way, even if you’re not ready to join the Church yet, you might check out some cool scriptures. Two of those books that are in the Catholic Bible but not others I really like are Sirach and Wisdom. Whether you agree with whatever human decision maker it was to include it in the Catholic Bible or to exclude it from others, don’t you find them pretty cool at first glance?

You see, now I’m recruiting. We need more Catholic who are serious about their faith and I think you’d make a good one. (Sorry if you consider that an insult. )

Come one in; the water’s fine. There is intelligent life here.

Alan

 

[edwinG]

Sarah Jane:

On baptism AND on confirmation we receive the Holy Spirit.

“for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:16-17)

“And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.” (Mt 4:23)

“And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.” (Lk 4:16)

Jesus is fully man and fully God.

Hi Sarah Jane,
The quote you have used is taken out of context. My words have always been that Christ did not go to the synagogues to learn or for guidance. So I ask you again, Did Jesus go to the synagogues to learn. Did He go to the synagogues for guidance. Once when He was 12 and He amazed them.
Tell me Sarah Jane, how did Jesus learn? Was Jesus fully man? Are you fully man? Can you learn the same as Jesus? If not what scripture can you give to me to support your view?

The prior post said I did not understand and that the Spirit was given at confirmation. I reiterated my statement. Baptism.

Then you said And on confirmation. John14:15 " the Spirit of truth , whom the world cannot receive , because it neither sees Him nor knows Him , but you know Him,for He dwells with you and will be in you."

Sarah Jane, the Holy Spirit doesn’t pick occasions to visit, once He has come, He will never leave you. He is indwelling.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif