Catholics follow the teachings of men rather than the Holy Spirit. Or do they...?

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Peter not in charge of his church? Hardly. Chapter 15 of Acts shows that after he spoke (v. 7-11), “the assembly was silent” (verse 12). Paul and Barnabas simply recounted how God had worked through them. By the way, if the Holy Spirit is all that is needed, why did the leaders of the Church have to bother with a council? The Holy Spirit could simply have impressed on everybody what should be done. The answer is that the Holy Spirit DID work, through the leaders that Jesus appointed for his church.

Hi Robert,
I didnt explain myself properly. The reason Paul came to Jerusalem was because of the false teaching coming from Jerusalem. Peter was in charge, I suppose. Therefore he must be responsible for the teachings coming from Jerusalem if he was the pope. Was he weak and failed to stop individual teachings? Why were false teachings coming from Jerusalem? Yes after Paul came Peter stood up but before Paul came the teachings were for the law and circumcision and Peter had this responsibility. He seems to have had a great respect for Paul because Paul also withstood Peter to his face on another matter where Peter showed a weakness for the praise of men.
My heart goes out to Peter that he should be humbled so many times so that we might learn the truth and not take the wrong path. Can you see the messages? Do you feel for poor Peter?
I agree with you. The Holy Spirit was obeyed because the circumcision and the law ( almost entirely) was done away with, but to achieve this Paul had to come to Jerusalem. These things transpired that we should learn from them. What can we learn from this? In all things, the Holy Spirit is the strength, and God’s wisdom is far above us.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Actually, Isaiah was referring to the Jewish leaders of his day. Are there Catholic leaders who could fit that description? No doubt. But then, you can find leaders of any church that match that description. Still that doesn’t take away from the authority that Jesus gave the Apostles and his successors.

The quote talks about the Holy Spirit as the only one God can trust. " for with stammering lips and another tongue" and this is the age of the spirit. I am not denying the apostles and the earthly church, but I keep on saying about the role of the church and the role of the Holy Spirit.

. Edwin, you are once again arguing from the either/or position. Catholics are both/and. Just because I am a Catholic and obey the teachings of the Pope and magisterium does NOT mean I abdicate responsibility for spiritual growth in my life. If you are able, you should find a book on the saints (I’ve heard that Butler’s Lives of the Saints

is a classic). You will read about Catholic men and women who led extraordinary Spirit-filled lives, more so than any non-Catholic I’ve ever read about (with the exception of the Eastern Orthodox). Take for example Mother Teresa.

I am a Catholic for two reasons: One is the sacraments. The second reason is that the teaching authority of the Church provides a boundary that prevents me from drifting into spiritual error, which is very easy if you are on your own. Look at the folks in Jonestown, Waco and “Heaven’s Gate” who were led to destruction by false teaching, yet thought they were following the Holy Spirit.

Yes , Robert you are right and I am wrong. I am guilty of agruing the either /or position and have put everyone into the same basket. I apologise for that and ask for your forgiveness.
It is almost impossible for me to find books in English here in Thailand. I mean there are plenty of books but they are a good journey from here and then the chances of finding a particular book is very remote. I dont know anything about Mother Theresa apart from newspaper accounts but yes she seemed a very loving person.
You mentioned the two reasons you became a catholic. And in here you just confirm my fears. Because other people have errred you feel it is not possible for you to do this so you need the boundaries of the church. And in so doing you also fill up your belief to their boundaries, trusting in men’s decisions. There is a line here that one knows or I suppose doesn’t know. There also is the role of the church. How could you, Robert, possibly think that you would be like those poor people who went so far away from scripture.( Waco etc) I dont believe you could Robert. Go for a bit more faith, step out in belief, staying inside scripture.
For walking in faith brings love and surety and joy and comfort and peace, the things that no one else has available, the things that separate Christians from all others.These are not words Robert, they are emotions alive in me because of the workings of the Holy Spirit. Yes I have tribulations and yes I hate them, but even in them I have knowledge that it **is **tribulation and it will pass and in passing, joy and increased understanding and faith and love and knowledge are the fruits. Of all the precious stones none shines any where near as brightly as the truth.
I want to thank you for the spirit in which you conduct your posts.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

Hi Robert,
I didnt explain myself properly. The reason Paul came to Jerusalem was because of the false teaching coming from Jerusalem. Peter was in charge, I suppose. Therefore he must be responsible for the teachings coming from Jerusalem if he was the pope. Was he weak and failed to stop individual teachings? Why were false teachings coming from Jerusalem? Yes after Paul came Peter stood up but before Paul came the teachings were for the law and circumcision and Peter had this responsibility. He seems to have had a great respect for Paul because Paul also withstood Peter to his face on another matter where Peter showed a weakness for the praise of men.
My heart goes out to Peter that he should be humbled so many times so that we might learn the truth and not take the wrong path. Can you see the messages? Do you feel for poor Peter?
I agree with you. The Holy Spirit was obeyed because the circumcision and the law ( almost entirely) was done away with, but to achieve this Paul had to come to Jerusalem. These things transpired that we should learn from them. What can we learn from this? In all things, the Holy Spirit is the strength, and God’s wisdom is far above us.

Paul says in Galatians 2:11-13 that he confronted Peter in Antioch because he had stopped eating with Gentile converts. However, nowhere in Galatians or in Acts is there any evidence that Paul overruled Peter as far as leadership authority went. As a matter of fact, Paul confronted Peter precisely because Peter *was *the leader of the church- his actions were setting a bad example. But regarding the council in Acts 15, as I have already said in a previous post, the assembly was SILENT after Peter spoke. At no time did Paul make any sort of statement to the council telling them what to decide: Acts 15:12 simply states that Paul and Barnabas simply recounted the signs and wonders that God had wrought while they were among the Gentiles. The only other apostle who had any (name removed by moderator)ut in the decision making was James, the bishop of Jerusalem, who suggested 4 simple rules for Gentile Christians- Acts 15:20 (presumably in order to avoid scandalizing the Jewish Christians).

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

You mentioned the two reasons you became a catholic. And in here you just confirm my fears. Because other people have errred you feel it is not possible for you to do this so you need the boundaries of the church. And in so doing you also fill up your belief to their boundaries, trusting in men’s decisions. There is a line here that one knows or I suppose doesn’t know. There also is the role of the church. How could you, Robert, possibly think that you would be like those poor people who went so far away from scripture.( Waco etc) I dont believe you could Robert. Go for a bit more faith, step out in belief, staying inside scripture.

I mentioned Jonestown and Waco as extreme examples of how people can be falsely led. However, I almost did fall for a couple cults. When I first became a Christian, I did not belong to any church; it was “just me and Jesus.” I felt in my heart of hearts that the church Jesus founded must still be around, yet there were so many different churches claiming to follow the Bible, yet taught conflicting doctrine. I read some literature by a couple different groups who quoted the Bible, and claimed to be “the true church,” and I was almost convinced. But, by the grace of God and careful study, I was able to avoid becoming entrapped by them. However, the problem remained: Which church was the one Jesus founded? There are thousands of churches out there, all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, all claiming to follow the Bible, yet they cannot agree on important matters like the sacraments, church structure, the nature of salvation, or even matters like the nature of God and Jesus. 1 Corinthians 14:33 tells us that God is not the author of confusion, so all these contradicting sects cannot all be right, or what God intended. Edwin, in several posts you stated you wished that denominations would put their differences aside. Let me propose to you a parable of my own making:

THE PARABLE OF THE CUBIT

I was in the third grade when I started learning about various methods of measuring. One of the things we were taught was an ancient measurement called the cubit (it’s used in the Bible to give the dimensions of Noah’s ark, the Ark of the Covenant, and the new Temple in Ezekiel). References indicate that the cubit was approximately 18-22 inches long and was measured from one’s elbow to the tip of the middle finger. Herein lies the problem: Very few people have the same length of arm. Now, this isn’t a big deal if you’re working by yourself. However, if you are working on a big construction project (say, the pyramids) and each worker is using his own arm as the standard of the cubit, it’s obvious you are going to have a lopsided mess. In order to prevent this, the king (or pharaoh, etc.) would have a measurement taken of his arm, and a rod would be made to that measurement (it was usually made of gold, with jewels, etc.) and THAT would be the standard cubit for as long as he reigned.

Continued…

 

[RNRobert]

Conclusion…

                    Application of the parable

Here is the problem with Christianity outside of Catholicism: all claim to follow the Bible, but cannot agree on what it teaches. As a result, Christianity has become a lopsided mess. You cannot have a united Church unless you have a set standard for teaching, and a final authority to settle disputes. This is why I am Catholic: because I believe it was the Church founded by Christ himself, not some Johnny-come-lately with a rented pulpit and his own Scripture interpretation. Therefore, when a Pope or bishop speaks, He is speaking with the authority given by Christ himself: “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Luke 10:16, Douai-Rheims).

edwinG:
It is almost impossible for me to find books in English here in Thailand. I mean there are plenty of books but they are a good journey from here and then the chances of finding a particular book is very remote. I dont know anything about Mother Theresa apart from newspaper accounts but yes she seemed a very loving person.

Have you thought about trying to order books online? I know Amazon.com has a wide selection of books, and they have free shipping for orders over $25- however, I think that’s only for orders shipped to US addresses. It might be a different story for shipping overseas.

edwinG:
I want to thank you for the spirit in which you conduct your posts.

You are welcome!

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Paul says in Galatians 2:11-13 that he confronted Peter in Antioch because he had stopped eating with Gentile converts. However, nowhere in Galatians or in Acts is there any evidence that Paul overruled Peter as far as leadership authority went. As a matter of fact, Paul confronted Peter precisely because Peter *was *the leader of the church- his actions were setting a bad example. But regarding the council in Acts 15, as I have already said in a previous post, the assembly was SILENT after Peter spoke. At no time did Paul make any sort of statement to the council telling them what to decide: Acts 15:12 simply states that Paul and Barnabas simply recounted the signs and wonders that God had wrought while they were among the Gentiles. The only other apostle who had any (name removed by moderator)ut in the decision making was James, the bishop of Jerusalem, who suggested 4 simple rules for Gentile Christians- Acts 15:20 (presumably in order to avoid scandalizing the Jewish Christians).

Hi Robert,
Yes you did say that in another post, but before Peter spoke, before Paul came to Jerusalem, teachers from Jerusalem, members who were elders or apostles who attended the meeting, were preaching the law to Christian gentiles. That is why Paul came to Jerusalem. Because these false teachings were coming from the church which Peter was heading. Peter is responsible surely for this false teaching, Nothing was done until Paul came. Peter either didnt know or agreed with it, or disagreed and couldnt stop it. How do you read this. The very men in charge of the false teaching were in the meeting. They were under Peter’s authority. Why was this happening?
Acts 15:4 And when they had come to Jerusalem they were received by the church and the apostles; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up,saying, " It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Then it says after much dispute.
Again I say Robert, this false teaching was coming from some of the elders in the church. This is Peter’s responsibility. He was lacking, but we do not know why. Surely you can see this. That is why Paul came to Jerusalem.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Conclusion…

Application of the parable

Here is the problem with Christianity outside of Catholicism: all claim to follow the Bible, but cannot agree on what it teaches. As a result, Christianity has become a lopsided mess. You cannot have a united Church unless you have a set standard for teaching, and a final authority to settle disputes. This is why I am Catholic: because I believe it was the Church founded by Christ himself, not some Johnny-come-lately with a rented pulpit and his own Scripture interpretation. Therefore, when a Pope or bishop speaks, He is speaking with the authority given by Christ himself: “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Luke 10:16, Douai-Rheims).

Have you thought about trying to order books online? I know Amazon.com has a wide selection of books, and they have free shipping for orders over $25- however, I think that’s only for orders shipped to US addresses. It might be a different story for shipping overseas.

You are welcome!

Hi Robert,
I agree, Christ is the final authority.Again we come to my point, the role of the earthly church. I feel that the catholic church is locked back in pre Jesus time. Yes you have the Gospel and the letters etc but your hearts are with the law of these words and not the Spirit of the Word. You cant seem to find a safe way to let go of man’s teachings and personally listen to Jesus. You say you **almost **went the wrong way. Robert, if you are in Jesus, you can;t go astray for long. Just believe Robert because He will bring you back. Do you really think that if someone was trying their best to obey His teachings He would let you wander off to destruction. Robert you couldnt possibly believe that. How many people really want to go the distance? Most find a level they are comfortable with and let it lie their. But if you wish to go further, will He let you fall, in your sincerity. If you believe He would let you fall you must have a very low opinion of Him. IF you think He is not capable of leading you in your sincerity, you must have a very low opinion of His capabilities. If you dont trust your sincerity, it is best to stay where you are.
In love I speak these words to you Robert, because I want you to have the best available in the Kingdom of God.

About amazon.com, thanks for the suggestion, however I dont have a credit card.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[enanneman]

God be with you, Edwin!

In reading your post, you say:

edwinG:

Peter is responsible surely for this false teaching, Nothing was done until Paul came.

Where does Acts state that Peter is responsible for false teaching? You’re reading something that isn’t there, my friend. One could view all the New Testament Epistles as the Apostles correcting false teachings. “Don’t eat meat sacrificed to idols. Don’t receive the Eucharist unworthily. Don’t aquire a wife in lustful passions.” It’s pretty clear that once the Apostles set up the early churches, they spent much of their time correcting the false teachings and practices that continually crept in. Peter’s not responsible for this. Like any student, the new Christians made mistakes, and the Apostles simply had to correct them–there’s nothing sinister in this.

Then, you say:

edwinG:

Again I say Robert, this false teaching was coming from some of the elders in the church. This is Peter’s responsibility. He was lacking, but we do not know why. Surely you can see this. That is why Paul came to Jerusalem.

Edwin, Peter was a man, just like you and I. And, he faced the same problems at evangelizing that Jesus did. People misinterpreted His teachings just like they misinterpreted Peter’s, and the rest of the Apostles for that matter.

But, you make it seem like Peter was teaching false doctrines and Paul went up to Jerusalem to correct him. This viewpoint is not present in Acts.

Acts 15:1-2
Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.

My friend, it’s clear that Paul, Barnabas and some of the others went to Jerusalem to solve this question, not to correct false teachings that Peter had given. Paul presented a question, Peter provided an answer, and the matter was settled.

Peter shows his authority when he says in verse 7:

My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Then, as Robert says, the matter was settled and everyone fell silent.

Peace be with you Edwin!

Eric

 

[RBushlow]

edwinG:

before Paul came to Jerusalem, teachers from Jerusalem, members who were elders or apostles who attended the meeting, were preaching the law to Christian gentiles. That is why Paul came to Jerusalem.

I’m sorry Edwin, but you are speculating here. There is nowhere in scripture that says “There were false teachings, so Paul went to Jerusalem”. You are completely fabricating this. The scripture only states what occured when Paul got to Jerusalem. Anything else is pure supposition on your part.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord
.

 

[Church_Militant]

PhilVaz:

Naw, Roman Catholics and Orthodox too still follow the traditions of men rather than the Holy Spirit. And Matt 15 still applies to them. But of the 20,000 Prot denoms or so, about 17,000 are following the Holy Spirit, the others the tradition of men. Just kidding Good 2-part post.

Phil P

One books of mine says it’s more like 33,830 PLUS…

 

[RNRobert]

Hi Edwin!

I see enanneman already said what I was going to say about Peter and the Council of Jerusalem, so I’ll go on and reply to the rest of your post.

Are Catholic doctrines the teachings of men? Not so. Jesus told his Apostles that those heard them heard Him, and those who rejected them rejected Him. This meant than when they taught, it was not mere “teaching of men,” but the words of Christ himself. If this was not so, then when Paul wrote admonishing the Corinthians or Galatians, the people in those churches could simply ignore him and claim they were “following the Holy Spirit instead of man.” Now, what happened to the teaching authority when they died? Did it simply disappear, leaving Christians to fend for themselves? No, they set other Christians in position as bishops (Read 1 Timothy and Titus). If Paul could speak to other Christians with authority in the first century, then why can’t their successors do so in the 21st century? I listen to the teachings of the Catholic Church because I am listening to Christ himself.

Regarding false teachings: If you consult the Scriptures, you will notice that the sacred writers are constantly warning against false teachers. Jesus called them ravening wolves in sheep’s clothing (Matt 7:15); Paul calls them dogs (Philippians 3:2); John tells his listeners not to receive false teachers into their house or even greet them, or else shares in their evil works (2 John 10-11); Jude likens them to waterless clouds, fruitless trees, and wild waves, among other things (Jude 12-13). Interestingly, Jude 11 says that false teachers “perished in the rebellion of Korah. Who was Korah? Read the sixteenth chapter of Numbers. He led a rebellion against the God-appointed authority of Moses and Aaron.

As you can see from Scripture, falling into falsehood is a very real danger. Paul tells the Galatians he is amazed how quickly they fell away from the truth (Galatians 1:6). The problem is this: How do you determine what is true and what is false? The Bible? It is God’s Word, to be sure, but many groups have perverted it for their own ends. There are so many groups that use the Bible and claim to be led by the Holy Spirit but teach contradicting things. The JWs say that Jesus was an angel; the Mormons say that God the Father was once a man; the Unitarians say Jesus is just a man, etc. Edwin, it all comes down to one question: Whose authority can you trust? You will probably say “the Holy Spirit.” I say “AMEN.” The problem is that in the Bible we see that God never intended for us to be a “denomination of one.” Jesus prayed that we should be one (John 17:21-23) and that we should not get out of habit of meeting together (Hebrews 10:25). The church is not be some invisible “church of all believers” but a city on a hill, not a light under a bushel basket (Matt 5:14-15) Scripture also shows that Jesus appointed people to speak in his name. Now, my question to you is this: Which church today speaks with the same authority that the Apostles had?

 

[MariaG]

posted by Edwin #67

Yes you have the Gospel and the letters etc but your hearts are with the law of these words and not the Spirit of the Word.

That is a serious charge you make. Please be more specific.

You cant seem to find a safe way to let go of man’s teachings and personally listen to Jesus.

Once again, please be more specific.

You say you **almost **went the wrong way. Robert, if you are in Jesus, you can;t go astray for long

But we can go astray. We can always choose to turn our back on Christ.

You have a very low and wrong opinion of the Catholic Church. Frequently you infer to people that they do not trust the Holy Spirit to lead them. You miss the bigger picture. We completely trust the Holy Spirit and believe the promises in Scripture that talk about the church. You are always saying that a church is a body of people not a denomination, but until Protestants rebelled, there was only ONE denomination. Catholic. You do not trust God to be able to keep His ONE denomination that there was for over a thousand years free from error. You are following the teachings of those who did not think God was big enough to keep His Church, the only church that was around free from error. Trust in the Holy Spirit? We do.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[enanneman]

RNRobert:

I see enanneman already said what I was going to say about Peter and the Council of Jerusalem, so I’ll go on and reply to the rest of your post.

I’m sorry if I stepped on your toes. I just had to respond to Edwin’s incredible statement: “Peter is responsible surely for this false teaching, Nothing was done until Paul came.”

Peace and God bless!

Eric

 

[RNRobert]

enanneman:

I’m sorry if I stepped on your toes. I just had to respond to Edwin’s incredible statement: “Peter is responsible surely for this false teaching, Nothing was done until Paul came.”

Peace and God bless!

Eric

Oh no, not at all! As a matter of fact, I couldn’t have rebutted him better myself.

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

About amazon.com, thanks for the suggestion, however I dont have a credit card.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

Edwin:

If you’re interested in reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, try these two sites:

Downloadable version (takes up less than 2 mb of disk space)
hismercy.ca/

Online version
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It draws its teachings from the Apostle’s Creed, the 10 Commandments and the Lord’s Prayer, and much of it quotes from Scripture.

You can also go to www.vatican.va to download the encyclicals written by Popes in the last hundred or so years.

I also have a book, Catholics on the internet, which lists websites that have books that can be downloaded for free (mostly older authors, like Newman and Chesterton). If you’re interested, feel free to ask and I’ll look them up for you.