Catholics follow the teachings of men rather than the Holy Spirit. Or do they...?

[AlanFromWichita]

RNRobert:

You also stated that if Paul was in one corner and Honorious was in another, who would I obey? Again, this is a both/and situation. When the last of the Apostles died, where did their teaching authority go to? Keep in mind that the Apostles worked miracles primarily to establish the credentials of Jesus’ Church, and as the Church became established the need for miracles decreased.

Dear RNRobert,

I agree with you about all those passages that tell us to obey men, therefore to obey men is to obey Jesus. This kind of troubled me a few months ago, as I was going through Acts and found the passage where the high priest had ordered the apostles not to preach in Jesus’ name, but they did anyway. In this case, they apparently had the high priest in one corner and the Holy Spirit in the other corner.

Acts 5:29: But Peter and the apostles said in reply, "We must obey God rather than men.

Then they were flogged and released, and they rejoiced at being able to suffer in the name of Christ.

I finally concluded that the greatest value of the Bible is not in its literal translation, but in its transforming and unifying abilities, so I quit trying to reconcile this passage with those you quoted. Do you have any good ideas on this?

Alan

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

. what happened to the authority of the apostles?

Edwin, How do you see Jesus, fully God /man etc and The Holy Spirit: is he just the impersonal force of God? Baptism:, and if so, how should we baptise (which words should we use, .
Which day of the week should we worship on?
Can you lose your salvation? Some say yes, and say no.

Edwin, there will be someone out there who will tell you YOU ARE WRONG,and claim they are being led by the Holy Spirit.

God is not the author of confusion

we need the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. I agree with you 100% on that! Without Him, all the church going in the world won’t save us. And we need to read the Scriptures daily. However, we still need the shepherds that God appointed over us. Remember, the folks at Jonestown and Waco.
I became a Catholic because I believe it is the one **that Christ founded. **

Hi RNRobert,
Thanks for the great post.
A correction. I submit continuallly as I walk in love, but **I cant make a total submission **to man.
The authority is with the Holy Spirit. The bible makes this so so so so so plain.
Where we are confused is in the role of the church.
Peope on this list say they are guided by the Holy Spirit and I am sure they are in a passive sense. Man if you only took the time to practise following Him, how joyous your life would be. On another thread a man asked how he could love Jesus more and several people answered and told him all of the things in the catholic teaching and he replied he was doing those things. No one told him to ask and pray for the moving of the Holy Spirit so he could feel Christ in him.I mean physically so his love could grow, so his religion would come alive and not be just words on a page and yeah yeah isnt it great yeah. The Holy Spirit who parted the Red Sea and knocked down the walls of Jericho is physical, you can feel Him and talk to Him and He will move and acknowledge your questions. And your love can grow, as He comes alive and you have this Almighty Holy Spirit as your personal guardian and He loves you and nothing can happen that is against His will.
Fully Man Fully God
see above re Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Which day to worship. Every day.
If you are seed you cannot lose your salvation, but if you are part of the 30 to 60 to 100 times, then maybe you can lose your salvation, not because you dont believe in Christ for every knee shall bow but because you refused to obey the Holy Spirit ( who amongst other things hands out your works) Not listening to the Holy Spirit can cause you a lot of grief, but listening and doing is peace and joy which can never leave you even during tribulation.
Many people do not have a deeper understanding of the word 'faith" and yes people can quote scripture endlessly to prove a point even when the scripture is out of context etc. Most people are satisfied with where they are. Only a few are really interested in continuing to seek. Many just want to defend where they are at, but it is God who can stir up our interest or have it evaporate. In the kindgom of God there are many many jobs, I think the system given to Moses by his father in law may be the model and this entails many levels. So God in Christ does not require as much from some people as He does from other people. We are all brothers in Christ, to love and edify each other.
This is one of the main roles of the church, not to cause divisions but to create brotherly love. When people say the HolySpirit led me to this denomination,believe them.
Who said the Holy Spirit wanted every one in the same earthly church. There would be no confusion if all Christian just loved one another irrespective of their denomination.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[GaryZak]

And I guess, by this same logic, THE LOVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOWS by deeds and events are of MEN and WOMEN, not SPIRIT?

And ALL PROTESTANT ACTIONS are of PURE SPIRIT???

Mother Teresa, if should could have been more PROTESTANT, with a family to think about, she’d could have done more of GOD’S WILL???

 

[RNRobert]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear RNRobert,

I agree with you about all those passages that tell us to obey men, therefore to obey men is to obey Jesus. This kind of troubled me a few months ago, as I was going through Acts and found the passage where the high priest had ordered the apostles not to preach in Jesus’ name, but they did anyway. In this case, they apparently had the high priest in one corner and the Holy Spirit in the other corner.

Acts 5:29: But Peter and the apostles said in reply, "We must obey God rather than men.

Then they were flogged and released, and they rejoiced at being able to suffer in the name of Christ.

I finally concluded that the greatest value of the Bible is not in its literal translation, but in its transforming and unifying abilities, so I quit trying to reconcile this passage with those you quoted. Do you have any good ideas on this?

Alan

In the case of Acts 5:29, you have to remember that the high priest no longer had any real authority. John 11:49-52 shows how the Holy Spirit spoke through the office of high priest. However, the Jewish sacrificial system that he led became null and void at the moment of Christ’s death (as evidenced by the tearing of the veil in front of the Holy of Holies). Therefore, the high priest at this point no longer had any authority.

 

[joehar]

here are some examples :

The Pope is the Head of the Church

“For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his
office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of
the entire Church has full, supreme, and
universal power over the whole Church, a
power which he can always exercise
unhindered.”
Verification:(#882, p. 254)
The Bible Says…


Jesus is the Head of the Church

God did not appoint Korol Wojtyla (John Paul II) to be the universal power over the whole Church. The Bible says the Lord Jesus Christ is the head of the church: “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as CHRIST IS THE
HEAD OF THE CHURCH…” -Eph. 5:23 *Note: Of course Jesus’ Church is NOT the Catholic Church. Perhaps the Pope could be referred to as the head of the Catholic Church, but this false religious organization is not part of the body of Christ, the true Church.

**RCC Catechism Says… **
**The Pope is the Supreme Pastor and Teacher **

“The Roman Pontiff…as supreme pastor
and teacher of all the faithful…”
**Verification: **(#891, p. 256)
The Bible Says…

**The Holy Ghost is the Supreme Teacher **

The Pope’s position as “supreme pastor and
teacher” is null and void, for the Bible says this
position is already filled by someone else, and He
will abide forever. Thus, there is no need to elevate Korol Wojtyla to take over the job that is reserved for the Holy Spirit alone. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have
said unto you.” --John 14:26 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH…” -John 16:13 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOR EVER;” --John 14:16

Read and think on before it is 2 late.

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

Hi RNRobert,
Thanks for the great post.
A correction. I submit continuallly as I walk in love, but **I cant make a total submission **to man.

What do you mean by “total submission to man?” Just because I’m a Catholic, it DOES NOT MEAN:

• That I surrendered my brain when I converted.
• That I became a mindless drone.
• That the Pope, bishop or priest has to approve everything I do (i.e, who to marry, where to live, what job I have, etc.)
• That I am am not allowed to read Scripture for myself)
• I don’t have to take any responsibility for my spiritual growth

It DOES mean:

• I obey the teachings of the church in regard to morals (i.e. birth control, abortion, sex, etc.) BTW, the church doesn’t make these rules because they’re a bunch of grumpy old men who want to keep us from having a good time, but use the church’s 2,000 years of experience to keep us from things that will hurt us and distance ourselves from God).
• That if there is a question regarding spirituality, interpretation of scripture, etc., the church is the final authority

edwinG:

The authority is with the Holy Spirit. The bible makes this so so so so so plain.

Yes, but it is also plain that the Holy Spirit works through the leaders of the church. While the Spirit does work through us individually, it was never intended for us to be spiritual Lone Rangers. In Acts 15, we see it was the CHURCH LEADERS in COUNCIL, not individual Christians, who made the decision about how to admit Gentile converts into the church. It’s also good to remember that they could not “search the scriptures” for their decision, as the OT didn’t apply and the NT didn’t exist.

edwinG:

Who said the Holy Spirit wanted every one in the same earthly church. There would be no confusion if all Christian just loved one another irrespective of their denomination.

In John 17, Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as He and his Father were. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians, mentions ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism (4:4). In other epistles he says to maintain unity and to avoid those who cause dissensions. The problem is, outside of the Catholic Church, there is only anarchy- Christians are divided up into thousands of sects and cannot agree on even the most basic tenets of the Christian faith.
I hope this helps you to understand why I believe the Catholic Church is THE church founded by Jesus, not just another manmade denomination.

Robert

 

[sackett]

Hey fellas,

In this debate on, among other things, when someone receives the holy spirt, why hasn’t anyone turned to the book of Galatians when Paul speaks on this point?

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so many things in vain – if it really is in vain. Does He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law or by hearing with faith?​

You don’t believe that a baby can have faith, do you? No of course not, there seems here to be an understanding that takes place, hearing, and then believing. Why hasn’t anyone talked about this yet?

Dave

 

[RBushlow]

joehar:

here are some examples

May the peace of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ be with you.

Please read the Gospel of Matthew Chapter 16 verse 19 when Jesus himself said to Peter
“And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” Now understand, in the time of Our Lord the giving of the keys and the power of binding and loosing indicated giving all authority and power. These are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Anyone who attempts to deny the words of Jesus is a FALSE TEACHER. Quit listening to the erroneous teachings of the alse preachers who have torn many souls away from the Church which Jesus founded. Come home to Christ and His Church. Pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you in all Truth and Light and He will guide you.

May the peace Christ, the Love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[germys9]

sackett:

Hey fellas,

In this debate on, among other things, when someone receives the holy spirt, why hasn’t anyone turned to the book of Galatians when Paul speaks on this point?

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so many things in vain – if it really is in vain. Does He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

---

You don’t believe that a baby can have faith, do you? No of course not, there seems here to be an understanding that takes place, hearing, and then believing. Why hasn’t anyone talked about this yet?

Dave

First of all in you need to read the passage in context and reallize that Paul is writing to 1st century Jews and not 21st century American Christian individualists. Jesus said “Let the children come to me;” by your theology, all infants, children below the age of reason, the mentally retarded, and all of those who have never even heard the name Jesus before, are condemmed to hell. Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[RNRobert]

MariaG:

I find it completely ironic when the Catholic Church gets accussed of not being biblical. Yet they have to jump through hoops explaining why John 21 is meant to be go and teach forgiveness instead of go and forgive. Why we are saved by faith alone, yet James says we are justified by our works. The list goes on and on.

Here’s another example: Fundamentalists who insist that the millenium mentioned in Revelation is a literal 1000 years, but then do all sorts of ‘lateral arabesques’ in trying to prove that Jesus was only speaking figuratively in John 6 when he talked about his followers eating his flesh and drinking his blood!

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Here’s another example: Fundamentalists who insist that the millenium mentioned in Revelation is a literal 1000 years, but then do all sorts of ‘lateral arabesques’ in trying to prove that Jesus was only speaking figuratively in John 6 when he talked about his followers eating his flesh and drinking his blood!

Hi RNRobert,
I hope you are full of beans.
To the question; are Christ’s words spiritual food? Are you now living in a spiritual kingdom, the kingdom of God?
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

What do you mean by “total submission to man?” Just because I’m a Catholic, it DOES NOT MEAN:

• That I surrendered my brain when I converted.
• That I became a mindless drone.
• That the Pope, bishop or priest has to approve everything I do (i.e, who to marry, where to live, what job I have, etc.)
• That I am am not allowed to read Scripture for myself)
• I don’t have to take any responsibility for my spiritual growth

It DOES mean:

• I obey the teachings of the church in regard to morals (i.e. birth control, abortion, sex, etc.) BTW, the church doesn’t make these rules because they’re a bunch of grumpy old men who want to keep us from having a good time, but use the church’s 2,000 years of experience to keep us from things that will hurt us and distance ourselves from God).
• That if there is a question regarding spirituality, interpretation of scripture, etc., the church is the final authority

• Hi RNRobert,
• I guess you are just a tad stirred up.Surely there is no need for me to answer.

Yes, but it is also plain that the Holy Spirit works through the leaders of the church. While the Spirit does work through us individually, it was never intended for us to be spiritual Lone Rangers. In Acts 15, we see it was the CHURCH LEADERS in COUNCIL, not individual Christians, who made the decision about how to admit Gentile converts into the church. It’s also good to remember that they could not “search the scriptures” for their decision, as the OT didn’t apply and the NT didn’t exist.

• 1Peter1:22 “Since you have purifued your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren love one another fervently with a pure heart.”
• There is no mention of a denominational church.
• There is always His Church.
• Ephesians 4:21 " If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him as the truth is in Jesus."
• Surely the O T did apply and the words of Jesus were ringing in their ears and the Holy Spirit was alive with Jesus in their hearts. Obviously the Holy Spirit led them to this decision but in reality the matter should not even have come up but that men wanted to stick to their traditions and could not accept the new age of the Spirit.

In John 17, Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as He and his Father were. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians, mentions ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism (4:4). In other epistles he says to maintain unity and to avoid those who cause dissensions. The problem is, outside of the Catholic Church, there is only anarchy- Christians are divided up into thousands of sects and cannot agree on even the most basic tenets of the Christian faith.
I hope this helps you to understand why I believe the Catholic Church is THE church founded by Jesus, not just another manmade denomination.

The one church is in Christ. I wish denominations would stop berating one another and look at the commonality, of Christ and belief in Him. We all have to stand before Him and what is not love is sin. Accept different levels of faith, of knowledge of all things in Christ as we are different in Him having different work and even different rewards. Take off our denominational hat and just wear Christ. What is not of Christ may be pride.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

Hi RNRobert,
I hope you are full of beans.
To the question; are Christ’s words spiritual food? Are you now living in a spiritual kingdom, the kingdom of God?
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yes, we are in a spiritual kingdom. However, we humans are hybrids: We are neither pure spirit like the angels, nor are we pure matter like the animals. We are both. This is why Jesus used things like water, bread and wine, and even spit and mud in his ministry (one woman was cured of a disease merely by touching the hem of his robe). To deny this is a form of Gnosticism.

Scripture says something else in reference to John 6:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord…For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. (1 Corinthians 11:27, 29-30)

It is interesting to note that ‘judgment’ in the above passage is rendered as ‘damnation’ in the King James Version.

Here is a question. If I tear up a picture of President Bush, am I guilty of assassinating him? In the same vein, if the Eucharist is merely a symbol, how can anyone be guilty of the Lord’s body and blood?:ehh:

---

---

 

[RBushlow]

RNRobert:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord…For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. (1 Corinthians 11:27, 29-30)

It is interesting to note that ‘judgment’ in the above passage is rendered as ‘damnation’ in the King James Version.

Here is a question. If I tear up a picture of President Bush, am I guilty of assassinating him? In the same vein, if the Eucharist is merely a symbol, how can anyone be guilty of the Lord’s body and blood?

Well said.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

joehar:

here are some examples :

The Pope is the Head of the Church

“For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his
office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of
the entire Church has full, supreme, and
universal power over the whole Church, a
power which he can always exercise
unhindered.”
Verification:(#882, p. 254)
The Bible Says…
佳木斯幸蒲顾问有限公司

Jesus is the Head of the Church

God did not appoint Korol Wojtyla (John Paul II) to be the universal power over the whole Church. The Bible says the Lord Jesus Christ is the head of the church: “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as CHRIST IS THE
HEAD OF THE CHURCH…” -Eph. 5:23 *Note: Of course Jesus’ Church is NOT the Catholic Church. Perhaps the Pope could be referred to as the head of the Catholic Church, but this false religious organization is not part of the body of Christ, the true Church.

**RCC Catechism Says… **
**The Pope is the Supreme Pastor and Teacher **

“The Roman Pontiff…as supreme pastor
and teacher of all the faithful…”
**Verification: **(#891, p. 256)
The Bible Says…

**The Holy Ghost is the Supreme Teacher **

The Pope’s position as “supreme pastor and
teacher” is null and void, for the Bible says this
position is already filled by someone else, and He
will abide forever. Thus, there is no need to elevate Korol Wojtyla to take over the job that is reserved for the Holy Spirit alone. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have
said unto you.” --John 14:26 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH…” -John 16:13 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOR EVER;” --John 14:16

Read and think on before it is 2 late.

Dear joehar!

I think that your wishes for us are good: “Read and think on before it is 2 late”, you say to us catholics.

Perhaps you should do a bit of thinking and reading yourself?

catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

God bless you!

G.G.

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

There is no mention of a denominational church.There is always His Church

Exactly! There was only one church back then. And guess which church of all the thousands of churches today can trace it’s roots directly to Jesus and his Apostles? You guessed it, the Catholic Church.

edwinG:

Obviously the Holy Spirit led them to this decision but in reality the matter should not even have come up but that men wanted to stick to their traditions and could not accept the new age of the Spirit.

Yes, but those were the Jews who rejected Christ completely. On the other hand, the Catholic Church preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ every day at Mass.

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Exactly! There was only one church back then. And guess which church of all the thousands of churches today can trace it’s roots directly to Jesus and his Apostles? You guessed it, the Catholic Church.

Does this apply to the Catholic Church then,
Isaiah 28:7 " But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment,
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.
9 Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breast?
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little , there a little

For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people
To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
you may cause the weary to rest,”
And “this is the refreshing”

Yet they would not hear."

Which church relies entirely on the “man” and the group of “men” who aren’t supposed to be wrong.
This passage as well as countless others say the Holy Spirit is the one true teacher, available to all who want to listen. Why didn’t Jesus write? Easy, because He wants us to Listen for and then listen to the Holy Spirit. He has individual work for you to do. Does your parish priest know what it is on a daily basis?

Who is God talking about when He says " Yet they would not hear" - His Holy Spirit.
From my position catholics seem to be reluctant in accepting the Holy Spirit’s teaching because of the faults of men. You seem to plead that because other people have failed to obey that no one can ,therefore you listen to your church leaders and miss out on allowing your faith to grow, on peace, on joy, on the very aspects that make the Christian journey enjoyable even in tribulation.

Yes, but those were the Jews who rejected Christ completely.

You were talking about Acts 15.
Here is Acts 15.5 "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Another aspect to consider is that Peter was pope ( according to the catholic church) but they the church are splintered, teaching the law and circumcision. Paul had to come back and remonstrate. Peter was either not in control of his own church as early as then, or he was in error. Can you see another meaning which can be drawn from these circumstances.
Note , Paul came because of this division from Jerusalem
In search of the truth,
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

RNRobert:

Yes, we are in a spiritual kingdom. However, we humans are hybrids: We are neither pure spirit like the angels, nor are we pure matter like the animals. We are both. This is why Jesus used things like water, bread and wine, and even spit and mud in his ministry (one woman was cured of a disease merely by touching the hem of his robe). To deny this is a form of Gnosticism.

Scripture says something else in reference to John 6:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord…For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. (1 Corinthians 11:27, 29-30)

It is interesting to note that ‘judgment’ in the above passage is rendered as ‘damnation’ in the King James Version.

Here is a question. If I tear up a picture of President Bush, am I guilty of assassinating him? In the same vein, if the Eucharist is merely a symbol, how can anyone be guilty of the Lord’s body and blood?:ehh:

Hi Robert,
Loved your answer.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

Does this apply to the Catholic Church then,
Isaiah 28:7 " But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment,
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.
9 Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breast?
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little , there a little

For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people
To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
you may cause the weary to rest,”
And “this is the refreshing”

Yet they would not hear."

Actually, Isaiah was referring to the Jewish leaders of his day. Are there Catholic leaders who could fit that description? No doubt. But then, you can find leaders of any church that match that description. Still that doesn’t take away from the authority that Jesus gave the Apostles and his successors.

edwinG:

This passage as well as countless others say the Holy Spirit is the one true teacher, available to all who want to listen. Why didn’t Jesus write? Easy, because He wants us to Listen for and then listen to the Holy Spirit. He has individual work for you to do. Does your parish priest know what it is on a daily basis?

From my position catholics seem to be reluctant in accepting the Holy Spirit’s teaching because of the faults of men. You seem to plead that because other people have failed to obey that no one can ,therefore you listen to your church leaders and miss out on allowing your faith to grow, on peace, on joy, on the very aspects that make the Christian journey enjoyable even in tribulation.

No, my parish priest does not know the Holy Spirit’s plan for my life, nor is he supposed to. Edwin, you are once again arguing from the either/or position. Catholics are both/and. Just because I am a Catholic and obey the teachings of the Pope and magisterium does NOT mean I abdicate responsibility for spiritual growth in my life. Are there Catholics who lead their spiritual lives on autopilot? Of course! However, I’m sure you can find people like that in any denomination, any church. If you are able, you should find a book on the saints (I’ve heard that Butler’s Lives of the Saints is a classic). You will read about Catholic men and women who led extraordinary Spirit-filled lives, more so than any non-Catholic I’ve ever read about (with the exception of the Eastern Orthodox). Take for example Mother Teresa. She was obedient to the teachings of the Catholic Church, yet I doubt you will deny that she lived a life filled with the Holy Spirit.

I am a Catholic for two reasons: One is the sacraments. As I mentioned a couple posts back, we are hybrids, both spirit and matter, which is why Jesus instituted things like baptism the Eucharist, to be channels of grace, and participating at Mass and confession helps to infuse grace and to become mature in the spiritual life. The second reason is that the teaching authority of the Church provides a boundary that prevents me from drifting into spiritual error, which is very easy if you are on your own. Look at the folks in Jonestown, Waco and “Heaven’s Gate” who were led to destruction by false teaching, yet thought they were following the Holy Spirit.

 

[RNRobert]

edwinG:

You were talking about Acts 15.
Here is Acts 15.5 "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Another aspect to consider is that Peter was pope ( according to the catholic church) but they the church are splintered, teaching the law and circumcision. Paul had to come back and remonstrate. Peter was either not in control of his own church as early as then, or he was in error. Can you see another meaning which can be drawn from these circumstances.
Note , Paul came because of this division from Jerusalem

Peter not in charge of his church? Hardly. Chapter 15 of Acts shows that after he spoke (v. 7-11), “the assembly was silent” (verse 12). Paul and Barnabas simply recounted how God had worked through them. By the way, if the Holy Spirit is all that is needed, why did the leaders of the Church have to bother with a council? The Holy Spirit could simply have impressed on everybody what should be done. The answer is that the Holy Spirit DID work, through the leaders that Jesus appointed for his church.