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estesbob
Guest
Nonsense. He is now and always has been nothing more that a fringe canidate.
- Status
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gilliam
Guest
Speaking of the Tea Party. Gallup has come out with a new poll:
Tea Party Sparks More Antipathy Than Passion
PRINCETON, NJ – More Americans consider themselves strong opponents of the Tea Party movement than strong supporters, by 20% to 14%, and the ratio is a similar 22% to 15% among registered voters. When factoring in those who support or oppose the movement but not strongly, the opposing groups are more evenly matched, with 25% of Americans in total classified as Tea Party supporters and 28% as opponents. About 4 in 10 Americans as well as registered voters say they neither support nor oppose the Tea Party.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/8cirkxxaducglv4ofjqf5a.gif
Gallup has previously measured support for the Tea Party movement, but this is the first time it asked a follow-up question that probes intensity.
One of the more striking findings of the Aug. 4-7 USA Today/Gallup poll is that nearly half of self-described liberals, 48%, consider themselves strong opponents of the Tea Party, significantly greater than the 30% of conservatives calling themselves strong supporters. Similarly, by 39% to 31%, there are more strong Democratic opponents than strong Republican supporters. Among independents, 14% are strong supporters and an equal number are strong opponents.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/s_2opixaj06k01rbq7wfqg.gif
Adults 35 and older are slightly more likely to call themselves strong supporters of the Tea Party movement than are those 18 to 34. Also, consistent with racial differences in party identification, whites are more supportive than blacks of the Tea Party. Gallup finds little difference between men’s and women’s relationship to the movement.
Residents of the East are less likely than those in other regions to be strong Tea Party supporters, and the East has the highest percentage of strong opponents. The South, however, is the only region where strong supporters outnumber strong opponents (17% vs. 11%).
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/oxtccqtog0qtrfibfdsrng.gif
Tea Party Support Dips to New Low
At 25%, overall support for the Tea Party among U.S. adults is similar to the previous low of 26% found in October 2010. Support increased to 32% last November – immediately after the 2010 midterm elections – and held at 30% in January and April of this year before dropping to the current new low.
Overall opposition to the Tea Party movement, now 28%, is about average for where it has been since early 2010, while the 42% saying they are neither supporters nor opponents is a new high.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/jdzo8stx7e6x9bzwdhk0oa.gif
Bottom Line
The national Tea Party movement appears to have lost some ground in popular support after the blistering debate over raising the nation’s debt ceiling in which Tea Party Republicans in the U.S. House and Senate fought any compromise on taxes and spending. Fourteen percent of Americans consider themselves strong supporters of the Tea Party movement, and, perhaps not coincidentally, 12% of the public consists of conservative Republicans who wanted members of Congress who shared their views on the budget to hold out for a deal they could agree with. That is according to a July 15-17 Gallup poll on the debt ceiling debate.
gallup.com/poll/148940/tea-party-sparks-antipathy-passion.aspx
Tea Party Sparks More Antipathy Than Passion
PRINCETON, NJ – More Americans consider themselves strong opponents of the Tea Party movement than strong supporters, by 20% to 14%, and the ratio is a similar 22% to 15% among registered voters. When factoring in those who support or oppose the movement but not strongly, the opposing groups are more evenly matched, with 25% of Americans in total classified as Tea Party supporters and 28% as opponents. About 4 in 10 Americans as well as registered voters say they neither support nor oppose the Tea Party.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/8cirkxxaducglv4ofjqf5a.gif
Gallup has previously measured support for the Tea Party movement, but this is the first time it asked a follow-up question that probes intensity.
One of the more striking findings of the Aug. 4-7 USA Today/Gallup poll is that nearly half of self-described liberals, 48%, consider themselves strong opponents of the Tea Party, significantly greater than the 30% of conservatives calling themselves strong supporters. Similarly, by 39% to 31%, there are more strong Democratic opponents than strong Republican supporters. Among independents, 14% are strong supporters and an equal number are strong opponents.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/s_2opixaj06k01rbq7wfqg.gif
Adults 35 and older are slightly more likely to call themselves strong supporters of the Tea Party movement than are those 18 to 34. Also, consistent with racial differences in party identification, whites are more supportive than blacks of the Tea Party. Gallup finds little difference between men’s and women’s relationship to the movement.
Residents of the East are less likely than those in other regions to be strong Tea Party supporters, and the East has the highest percentage of strong opponents. The South, however, is the only region where strong supporters outnumber strong opponents (17% vs. 11%).
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/oxtccqtog0qtrfibfdsrng.gif
Tea Party Support Dips to New Low
At 25%, overall support for the Tea Party among U.S. adults is similar to the previous low of 26% found in October 2010. Support increased to 32% last November – immediately after the 2010 midterm elections – and held at 30% in January and April of this year before dropping to the current new low.
Overall opposition to the Tea Party movement, now 28%, is about average for where it has been since early 2010, while the 42% saying they are neither supporters nor opponents is a new high.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/jdzo8stx7e6x9bzwdhk0oa.gif
Bottom Line
The national Tea Party movement appears to have lost some ground in popular support after the blistering debate over raising the nation’s debt ceiling in which Tea Party Republicans in the U.S. House and Senate fought any compromise on taxes and spending. Fourteen percent of Americans consider themselves strong supporters of the Tea Party movement, and, perhaps not coincidentally, 12% of the public consists of conservative Republicans who wanted members of Congress who shared their views on the budget to hold out for a deal they could agree with. That is according to a July 15-17 Gallup poll on the debt ceiling debate.
gallup.com/poll/148940/tea-party-sparks-antipathy-passion.aspx
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Good Lord. bob, even the “lamestream media” admits that it was Paul’s 2008 campaign that planted the seeds that eventually gave root to the Tea Party. Sorry you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge it.
washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/13/tea-party-godfather-ron-paul-running-president/
businessinsider.com/ron-paul-tea-partiers-and-congress-did-they-want-sp-downgrade-is-that-treason-2011-8
usnews.com/news/blogs/Ken-Walshs-Washington/2011/08/18/tea-party-champion-ron-paul-takes-bow-in-new-hampshire
msnbc.msn.com/id/43019901/ns/politics-decision_2012/t/tea-party-godfather-ron-paul-declares-bid/
huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/will-palin-and-the-neocon_b_456824.html
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JMJSHJ
Guest
If Ron Paul’s views are to be considered more seriously from people here then his apologists here should learn that when independent people who have no party affiliation make valid criticisms, it would be wise to not get so angry at them.
I personally offer no disagreements regarding his economic policies but don’t treat that as acceptance. My biggest beef’s with him is his strange social policies (decriminalizing all drugs) and his incredibly naive foreign policies.
Anybody who says that Pakistan should have been consulted prior to the Bin Laden raid is not fit for Office of the President. This raid was not the first time that we have tried to get him but unlike the other times, Pakistan wasn’t consulted. So what made this raid successful? Gee…
This doesn’t make the US to be the World’s Police officer but just a country that is holding a person to justice that committed grave acts of atrocity against innocent civilians.
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Big_Ro
Guest
You didn’t offend me at all. I was just taken aback at the anger that I perceived in your response and frankly this response onl convinces me that I was right. Let’s see, where to begin…first of all, I didn’t insult your intelligence at all. As far as the wide swath, did you look at the RCP link I posted. RCP lists several polls across a long period of time and averages them together. They all show more or less the same results. Romney and Perry at the top with Paul and Bachman either third or fourth. Read 'em and weep. Second, I never said that the polling in any way paints an obvious picture of Perry being the eventual nominee. I said that it makes a case that Paul does not have enough support amongst Republican voters to secure the nomination and that the trend shows that he is stable. IMO, this points to a strong dedicated cadre of suporters that are indded the envy of many other candidates. It also, by my reading, points to a very limited appeal. If he or his policies had a wider audience, it would show in the numbers. Now, you are welcome to believe whatever you like as to why he has not been able to expand his appeal. I have said and will say again, its because the voters have weighed, measured and found lacking his appeal as a Presdiential candidate. You and others are welcome to support him with full-throated enthusiasm. Bully for you!!
I do agree that some posters on this thread denigrate Dr. Paul. I am not one of those people. I have serious reasons for not being a supporter of Dr. Paul, but I don’t think I have personally denigrated the man. As far as him being unelectable…well its a term of art. He’s clearly electable because he meets the constitutional requirements for the office. If he gets enough votes then he’s electable. I have recently dropped that verbiage and taken the more accurate term that he will not be elected. I guess I could be wrong and if so you are welcome to take me to task on it, but I seriously doubt it’ll happen.
Finally, how have I engaged in “name-calling” or bogus appeals? please read through the thread and find where I have engaged in such behavior. This is a falsehood. You are engaging in an ad hominem attack which the Mod has already warned the posters to this thread to avoid. I am voicing my opinion. You are welcome to disagree or agree. You are welcome to your own opinion, I would ask that you afford me the same respect and not engage in these types of outrageous attacks on me personally. To suggest that I am being disingenuous as to being able to form an opinion independent of my affinity to one Party or the other or one Candidate or the other is frankly quite insulting and a violation of the rules of this forum. you are castinga spersions toward me as opposed to providing me with the benfit of the doubt. I am being charitable to you by not assigning some agenda when you support Dr. Paul by using what is, IMO, unpursuasive facts. My prediction stand, Rick Perry will be the Nominee and Ron Paul will fail to rise above his current standings. Deal with it.
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Big_Ro
Guest
I think you’re right about this Scott. From my perspective, Paul’s supporters were and continue to make up a core group within the Tea Party and they were Tea Party before there was such a thing. Estesbob is welcome to disagree but that’s par for the course.
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tomarin
Guest
That’s a little hard to believe. There may be some overlap between the two groups, but I don’t see them as identical, not by a long shot.I think you’re right about this Scott. From my perspective, Paul’s supporters were and continue to make up a core group within the Tea Party and they were Tea Party before there was such a thing. Estesbob is welcome to disagree but that’s par for the course.
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estesbob
Guest
Fringe canidate with miniscule support he is at least 3rd down on the list of candidates supported by tea partiers I will,however, take note of your new found respect for MSNBC and the Huffington Post
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Big_Ro
Guest
The key phrase is “within the Tea Party”. So, I am not saying that they are one in the same. I’m saying and I think that a reasonable reading of the history of the group shows, that Ron Paul’s supporters formed a core group upon which the larger movement was built. I think they continue to form a core group, but by no means make up the enitre group or groups. If they did, Ron Paul would be leading by wide margins in the polling data. It is my opinion that his numbers demonstrate that he has a core constituency that is dedicated and loyal as well as stable and not growing. I believe that the Tea Party groups are in firm control of the Republican nominating process for this cycle. So, again, the polling data seems to support my hypothosis. He continues to poll at a certain level. It’s neither growing nor falling.
So, my comment was quite accurate. I think when you go back and read it a little more carefully you’ll see that I said no such thing as your comment is suggesting. Seems like a reasonable mistake and assign no malice toward me on your part. I hope my comment clarifys.
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gilliam
Guest
The Tea Party movement (TPM) is an American populist political movement that is generally recognized as conservative and libertarian, and has sponsored protests and supported political candidates since 2009. It endorses reduced government spending, opposition to taxation in varying degrees, reduction of the national debt and federal budget deficit, and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution.
The name “Tea Party” is a reference to the Boston Tea Party, a protest by colonists who objected to a British tax on tea in 1773 and demonstrated by dumping British tea taken from docked ships into the harbor. Some commentators have referred to the Tea in “Tea Party” as the backronym “Taxed Enough Already”.
The Tea Party movement has caucuses in the House of Representatives and the Senate of the United States. The Tea Party movement has no central leadership, but is composed of a loose affiliation of national and local groups that determine their own platforms and agendas. The Tea Party movement has been cited as an example of grassroots political activity, although it has also been cited as an example of astroturfing.
The Tea Party’s most noted national figures include Republican politicians such as Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Dick Armey, Herman Cain, and Ron Paul, with Paul described by some as the “intellectual godfather” of the movement. Though the Tea Party movement is not, as of 2011, a national political party, polls show that most Tea Partiers consider themselves to be Republicans and it has tended to endorse Republican candidates. Commentators including Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport have suggested that the movement is not a new political group, but simply a rebranding of traditional Republican candidates and policies. An October 2010 Washington Post canvass of local Tea Party organizers found 87% saying “dissatisfaction with mainstream Republican Party leaders” was “an important factor in the support the group has received so far”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Par…nd_and_history
The name “Tea Party” is a reference to the Boston Tea Party, a protest by colonists who objected to a British tax on tea in 1773 and demonstrated by dumping British tea taken from docked ships into the harbor. Some commentators have referred to the Tea in “Tea Party” as the backronym “Taxed Enough Already”.
The Tea Party movement has caucuses in the House of Representatives and the Senate of the United States. The Tea Party movement has no central leadership, but is composed of a loose affiliation of national and local groups that determine their own platforms and agendas. The Tea Party movement has been cited as an example of grassroots political activity, although it has also been cited as an example of astroturfing.
The Tea Party’s most noted national figures include Republican politicians such as Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Dick Armey, Herman Cain, and Ron Paul, with Paul described by some as the “intellectual godfather” of the movement. Though the Tea Party movement is not, as of 2011, a national political party, polls show that most Tea Partiers consider themselves to be Republicans and it has tended to endorse Republican candidates. Commentators including Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport have suggested that the movement is not a new political group, but simply a rebranding of traditional Republican candidates and policies. An October 2010 Washington Post canvass of local Tea Party organizers found 87% saying “dissatisfaction with mainstream Republican Party leaders” was “an important factor in the support the group has received so far”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Par…nd_and_history
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gilliam
Guest
A little more:
Membership and demographics
Several polls have been conducted on the demographics of the movement. Though the various polls sometimes turn up slightly different results, they tend to show that Tea Party supporters are mainly white and slightly more likely to be male, married, older than 45, more conservative than the general population, and likely to be more wealthy and have more education.
One Gallup poll found that other than gender, income and politics, self-described Tea Party members were demographically similar to the population as a whole.
When surveying supporters or participants of the Tea Party movement, polls have shown that they are to a very great extent more likely to be registered Republican, have a favorable opinion of the Republican Party and an unfavorable opinion of the Democratic Party. The Bloomberg National Poll of adults 18 and over showed that 40% of Tea Party supporters are 55 or older, compared with 32% of all poll respondents; 79% are white, 61% are men and 44% identify as “born-again Christians”, compared with 75%, 48.5%, and 34% for the general population, respectively.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement#Background_and_history
Membership and demographics
Several polls have been conducted on the demographics of the movement. Though the various polls sometimes turn up slightly different results, they tend to show that Tea Party supporters are mainly white and slightly more likely to be male, married, older than 45, more conservative than the general population, and likely to be more wealthy and have more education.
One Gallup poll found that other than gender, income and politics, self-described Tea Party members were demographically similar to the population as a whole.
When surveying supporters or participants of the Tea Party movement, polls have shown that they are to a very great extent more likely to be registered Republican, have a favorable opinion of the Republican Party and an unfavorable opinion of the Democratic Party. The Bloomberg National Poll of adults 18 and over showed that 40% of Tea Party supporters are 55 or older, compared with 32% of all poll respondents; 79% are white, 61% are men and 44% identify as “born-again Christians”, compared with 75%, 48.5%, and 34% for the general population, respectively.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement#Background_and_history
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tomarin
Guest
It sounds like you’re making a very nuanced argument. So you’re not saying that Ron Paul is the godfather of the Tea Party movement?
No malice, animus or animadversion whatsoever.
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louis91766
Guest
Does the Tea Party back the foreign policy of Ron Paul? I think that they are on opposite sides on foreign policy.
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kubark
Guest
So it’s “offensive” to use the term “neoconservative” to describe one’s political persuasion, but “fringe candidate” is perfectly acceptable. Strange how “neoconservative” yields moderator notices from Robert Bay, yet crickets for “fringe candidate.” But on a more serious note, estesbob, I thought you might be interested in the fact that if Ron Paul ran against President Barack Obama today, he’d run about even with the incumbent, according a new Gallup poll. The Gallup results show that 82 percent of self-identified Republicans say they’d vote for Paul, if a Paul-Obama election were held today. And weren’t you just saying something about “single-digit” numbers, estesbob. Didn’t you use the words “unelectable?”
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tomarin
Guest
I’d say that Ron Paul is best known for two positions: an extreme non-interventionism in foreign policy and his desire to return the U.S. currency to a gold standard. I don’t think either of those two views are associated with the Tea Party which as far as I know is primarily concerned with reining in federal budgets.
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Big_Ro
Guest
Thank you for noticing that I am making a nuanced argument. I pride myself in doing so. However, I just don’t see how you can reach the conclusion that I am not crediting Paul for giving birth to the Tea Party movement. I am saying that his Libertarianism underpins a good deal of the Tea Party platform as it exists. I’m saying that his supporters animated the movement and gave it’s original core constituency. That the larger group that currently identifies with the brand may have moved away from some or even most of Paul’s positions, such as in foreign policy, I don’t think is in question. So, I am just not seeing how I am not being clear. Are you trying to lure me in to some kind of argument? I don’t get it. I hope this clarifies what I have been trying to say.
“animadversion”…nice. I had to look that one up. Kudos.
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kubark
Guest
The foreign policy of Ron Paul is the foreign policy of the Founders. It is the foreign policy of Thomas Jefferson who, in his first inaugural address, called for “peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.” It is the foreign policy of George Washington who, in his Farewell Address, reminded us that, “The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible…Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?” Ron Paul’s foreign policy is the foreign policy of non-intervention. It puts American interests ahead of all other foreign interests. It follows the Just War Doctrine, which the war in Iraq did not even come close to satisfying. And remember, for much of the early 20th century our country had an excellent reputation in the Middle East, the part of the world we are told will hate us no matter what we do. The Islamic world has never been democratic. Yet, before we intervened there, our last threat came from the Barbary pirates. Certain “conservatives” have been converted to the belief that only by making the world democratic can we ever make America secure. But our Founders did not believe this; they did not even believe in democracy, per se. They thought they were creating a Republic that would be made secure by staying out of the wars of the blood-soaked continent their fathers had left behind. Interventionism is not the solution. Interventionism is the problem. And all this talk of a “democratic” Middle East may end up coming back to haunt us. Ironically, Israel may end up the biggest loser if “democracy” comes to the Middle East. Just look at Egypt and how far the situation has worsened in that country since Obama decision to back “democracy” and threw an autocratic, yet secure ally (Mubarak) under the bus. Sharia law will replace any secular constitution. The same will likely happen in Libya and anywhere else this so-called “democratic revolution” spreads. And who will suffer the most? Israel and Middle Eastern Christians. Between Bush and Obama we are witnessing the greatest blunders in American foreign policy. Bush and Obama will be long gone and OUR children will have to live with the consequences.
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Big_Ro
Guest
Don’t forget his aversion to the Federal Reserve.
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estesbob
Guest
Are you speaking of the same Thomas Jefferson who went to war with the BARBARY Pirates in 1801???
It should be noted that he did this WITHOUT congressional approval.
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MMolloy
Guest
Your biggest beef with him is that he wants to end the WAR on a Substance and the WAR on a Tactic? Hmmm Both have only been successful at doing ONE thing… Increasing the size and scope of Government. The War on Drugs is a war on the People of this country and anyone who takes a look at the incarceration rates in this country should be ashamed at supporting such a War on Freedom/Liberty: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline.gif
This War has turned our legal system on its head through asset forfeiture laws and the like… The SCOTUS just ruled that the police can enter your home without a warrant if they hear the toilet flush, since obviously you are flushing drugs down the toilet. Law Enforcement Officers are beginning to speak out on this in droves: leap.cc/
As far as Bin Laden is concerned, It would’ve been nice if Bin Laden (who supposedly wasn’t armed or resisting) was taken alive for questioning… maybe he might have a little valuable information??? If it was believed (or is currently believed) that Pakistan was harboring OBL… why on earth does the US Government continue to give them over 2 Billion in aid per year? I personally believe that OBL has been dead for quite some time… it’s unfortunate that we have no body and most of the Seal Team is unlikely to ever be heard from again… this side of the pearly gates.
Also, taking out OBL is not something Dr. Paul was opposed to in a general sense and as I mentioned previously he was fully in support of Letters of Marque and Reprisal (the historical means for going after Non Nation State aggressors). And this is how OBL (or his double) were eventually killed, by a small team acting with good intelligence. NOT by Occupying a country for Ten Years and another for 8 (or 21 depending on what you consider occupation) years. How many countries do we need to be at war with before the War Hawks on this site realize that the US’s Foreign Policy is flawed and that our country is BROKE.
I’m sure all the War on a Tactic supporters here will love going against the man who killed OBL… not much noise about it now but just wait to the General. How are you going to contrast the Status Quo Republican with Obama? “Yes, my guy supports the Warfare and Welfare State too… he just wants to make them more efficient”? LOL As I’ve said before… This is the END of the FEDeral Reserve and it’s Illusionary Monetary Policy, the End of Central Planning and the End of the Welfare and Warfare State.
- Status