Catholics...For Your Advise.

[ralphinal]

I would agree 100%. Further, it is an attack on the family in every form, and here is why.

St. Joseph could not be Jesus’s adopted Father. He was married to Mary, but she is not his Mother.

This also means that if you do not share genetic code, you are not the parents of the child. What about people who were adopted? By this line of thought, if you are not biologically related, you are an outsider are not really part of the family.

 

[greggy53]

Everyone, please read this.

Mosacked basically holds that the Holy Spirit put a created Jesus into Mary’s womb in the same way that God created Adam in the Gardan, sans the mud. Mary was needed to allow the Word made Flesh a place to develop and a person to help raise him, but that was all. She is of no importance in Jesus’s life, according to this line of thought.

Now, Greg pointed out how we see it. He was Divine as his Father was Divine and He is the Second Person, but he was Human because his Mother was Human. Greg mentioned that Maey gave birth to Jesus and Jesus is Divine. Mosacked does not deny either of those. What he denies is that Mary had anything to do with Jesus being conceived or becoming Human.

His point of view can only work I think if Mary had no choice in the matter. In other words she was predestined, and had to go along with it. Then she becomes just a vessel, and the description of a monkey giving birth becomes just as plausible at least from the fundamentalist view point. I guess the next question might be why then was Mary, or any human needed for the Holy spirit to conceive Jesus?. He made Adam from the dust of the earth, why didn’t he make the new Adam Jesus the same way? He could have been just as human as Adam, but divine as well. But we Catholics understand that in Genesis after Eve used her free will to sin that the father prophesied that another woman would use her free will and accept God’s grace and defeat sin. We know and accept with great joy that Mary’s free consent and acceptance of God’s will was a necessary part of his plan for all mankind’s salvation.

 

[Anna_Scott]

MOSACKED

I am still waiting for an answer to my #388 post.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Anna, you THINK too much.

If a person has a corrupted mind or darkened senses, his/her thought process will corrupt the teachings in scripture they read. Instead of just FOLLOWING scripture, the person starts to think of all kinds of outrageous reasonings/justifications.

Do you know that all that we humans need to do is OBEY?

…and Jesus said in John 4:22 - We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews.

Mosacked,

I’ve seen the damage you’ve done on other threads.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not taking the “bait.”

Anna

Javl,

After reading Mosacked’s post to me on my Thread: Orthodox-Are the Jews Still God’s Chosen People? I think he is behaving more like a “troll” than a person who desires an honest discussion.

This is a quote from the Indiana University.

kb.iu.edu/data/afhc.html
"People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt discussion, and to make trouble. The best response to a troll is no response. If you post a follow-up message, you are contributing to the resulting clamor and most likely delighting the troller. Before posting a response, consider the following questions:

* Have responses already been posted by others?

* Will my post add any information that others are not likely to be aware of already?

* Is the issue resolvable, or will discussion turn into name-calling?

* Should I send private email instead of posting publicly?

* Will I later regret the contents of what I am posting?"

I will not respond to any more of Mosacked’s posts. I think we have given him far too much attention already. It would be different if showed any sincerity in his posts.

Anna

 

[Janet1983]

But we Catholics understand that in Genesis after Eve used her free will to sin that the father prophesied that another woman would use her free will and accept God’s grace and defeat sin

Well I thought that God had said something different…

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Her seed, one of her (Eve’s) descendants was to bruise the devils head… That is Jesus.
The serpent is Satan and those knowingly or unknowingly serving him are his seed. The seed of the woman is Christ and His church…
This is an age old battle and Jesus was the one to succeed in bruising the serpents head.
With Jesus Satan tried to “bruise his heel” several times. First he tried to kill Him through Herod’s actions, then he tried to use the Pharisees and others to make Him stumble, he also tried to tempt Him… and finally he got Him crucified, a temporary victory.
Christ however already bruised his head by His victory over death and sin… and He will crush Satan and all his powers and his empire of demons at the end of days…

 

[greggy53]

Well I thought that God had said something different…
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. …

The first and most important problem you have is that you are working out a bad translation of the Bible. This is what the Douay-Rheims says;
Gen3 15
“ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

This is how the Douay-Rheims explains the passage:
"15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. "

So no, God had not said something different. The verse makes a lot more sense when put properly doesn’t it? He seed is Jesus, and with her acceptance, obedience and sinless life Thru her seed Jesus the serpent’s head was chrushed. She had a very important part to play in God’s plan for our salvation, and those that ignore or ridicule the mother of God are going to have a lot to answer to…do I hear an Amen from anyone?

 

[greggy53]

Do you see? By her(Mary’s) cooperation, and her selflessness vs. Eve’s rebellion and selfishness. This is what was prophesied by God in the garden.

 

[Janet1983]

The first and most important problem you have is that you are working out a bad translation of the Bible. This is what the Douay-Rheims says;
Gen3 15
“ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

This is how the Douay-Rheims explains the passage:
"15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. "

So no, God had not said something different. The verse makes a lot more sense when put properly doesn’t it? He seed is Jesus, and with her acceptance, obedience and sinless life Thru her seed Jesus the serpent’s head was chrushed. She had a very important part to play in God’s plan for our salvation, and those that ignore or ridicule the mother of God are going to have a lot to answer to…do I hear an Amen from anyone?

No amen’s from here…
A literal translation, word for word, from the Hebrew would look like this:
enmity | will put | between | and between | and the woman | between | your seed | between | seed | he | shall bruise | the head | and you | shall bruise | the heel

The trouble is this though:
הוּא has 3 possible definitions: he, she and it.
The short definition however is: he
This word is used for Adam most of the time… For her another word is used too… זֹאת (hereby in it, likewise, the one other, same, she, so much, such deed, that)

So please don’t go ahead and tell me my translation is false just because it uses a different, but correct translation here.

 

[greggy53]

No amen’s from here…
A literal translation, word for word, from the Hebrew would look like this:
enmity | will put | between | and between | and the woman | between | your seed | between | seed | he | shall bruise | the head | and you | shall brה

So please don’t go ahead and tell me my translation is false just because it uses a different, but correct translation here.

If you are using a Protestant Bible I would say that your translation has been polluted by those who would discredit God’s Church and to promote their own false teachings.

 

[Janet1983]

If you are using a Protestant Bible I would say that your translation has been polluted by those who would discredit God’s Church and to promote their own false teachings.

I will continue using my KJV and going back to the original text for confirmation. I simply will not rely on a Latin translation.
There is more than one way to translate this passage so don’t tell me my Bible is at fault. With my translation it is giving all the glory to Jesus Christ and it actually underlines what you said, refuting others who say that Jesus and Mary were not related. Her seed (Eve’s seed) can only be her seed if Jesus has at least one human parent.
He is the seed that brings down the devil.
May you be blessed.

In Him,
Janet

 

[greggy53]

I will continue using my KJV and going back to the original text for confirmation. I simply will not rely on a Latin translation.
There is more than one way to translate this passage so don’t tell me my Bible is at fault. With my translation it is giving all the glory to Jesus Christ and it actually underlines what you said, refuting others who say that Jesus and Mary were not related. Her seed (Eve’s seed) can only be her seed if Jesus has at least one human parent.
He is the seed that brings down the devil.
May you be blessed.

In Him,
Janet

Where do you think your KJV came from? All the Bibles in the world started out from the Latin Vulgate. It was the only translation used by Christians for over a 1000 years. It was and is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew texts. It was first translated into the common tongue (latin) in the 4th century by St Jerome. Your bible is not only incorrect in many places it is also incomplete. The Douay Rheims Bible was first published in English some 30 years before the KJV.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Huge sidebar–please accept my apologies in advance.

Where do you think your KJV came from? All the Bibles in the world started out from the Latin Vulgate. It was the only translation used by Christians for over a 1000 years. It was and is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew texts. It was first translated into the common tongue (latin) in the 4th century by St Jerome. Your bible is not only incorrect in many places it is also incomplete. The Douay Rheims Bible was first published in English some 30 years before the KJV.

It is important to get the facts regarding Bible translations.

This is a quote from the Bible Translations Guide found under the Faith Tab of CAF:
Link: catholic.com/library/Bible_Translations_Guide.asp

Bible Translations Guide
What many advocates of both King James-onlyism and Douay-Rheims-onlyism do not know is that neither Bible is the original issued in the 1600s. Over the last three centuries, numerous minor changes (for example, of spelling and grammar) have been made in the King James, with the result that most versions of the KJV currently on the market are significantly different from the original. This has led one publisher to recently re-issue the 1611 King James Version Bible.

The Douay-Rheims currently on the market is also not the original, 1609 version. It is technically called the “Douay-Challoner” version because it is a revision of the Douay-Rheims done in the mid-eighteenth century by Bishop Richard Challoner. He also consulted early Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, meaning that the Douay Bible currently on the market is not simply a translation of the Vulgate (which many of its advocates do not realize).

For most the question of whether to use an old or a modern translation is not so pointed, and once a decision has been reached on this question it is possible to select a particular Bible version with relative ease.

We recommend staying away from translations with unconventional renderings, such as the TEV, and **suggest using the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. This is a Church-approved version of the RSV that has a few, minor changes in the New Testament. It has been reissued by Ignatius Press under the title The Ignatius Bible **(available from Catholic Answers in both hardcover and paperback formats).

Quote from the Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:

“For four hundred years, following upon the great upheaval of the Reformation, Catholics and Protestants have gone their separate ways and suspected each other’s translations of the Bible of having been in some way manipulated in the interests of doctrinal presuppositions. It must be admitted that these suspicions were not always without foundation. At the present time, however, the sciences of textual criticism and philology, not to mention others, have made such great advances that the Bible text used by translators is substantially the same for all–Protestants and Catholics alike.”

Quote from the Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in The Catholic Comparative New Testament:

This edition of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible has been prepared for the use of Catholics by a committee of the Catholic Biblical Association of Great Britain. It is published with ecclesiastical approval and by agreement with the Standard Bible Committee and the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States. . . . A small committee of members of the Catholic Bible Association was formed and permission obtained to examine this translation and suggest any changes that might be required to make it acceptable to Catholics. The Standard Bible Committee of the U.S.A. was then approached and they gave warm welcome to the proposal."

So, a non-Catholic Bible became a Catholic Bible, and is now a Catholic recommended translation.

The Revised Standard Version of the Bible, was edited for Catholic use; and became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, The Ignatius Bible.

I do not prefer the KJV or the Douay-Rheims translations. However, they both have important histories and were great accomplishments in their own way.

My point is that Protestants and Catholics have more in common, when it comes to Bible translations, than most people realize. Let’s focus on the things that unite us.

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[rinnie]

Well I thought that God had said something different…

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Her seed, one of her (Eve’s) descendants was to bruise the devils head… That is Jesus.
The serpent is Satan and those knowingly or unknowingly serving him are his seed. The seed of the woman is Christ and His church…
This is an age old battle and Jesus was the one to succeed in bruising the serpents head.
With Jesus Satan tried to “bruise his heel” several times. First he tried to kill Him through Herod’s actions, then he tried to use the Pharisees and others to make Him stumble, he also tried to tempt Him… and finally he got Him crucified, a temporary victory.
Christ however already bruised his head by His victory over death and sin… and He will crush Satan and all his powers and his empire of demons at the end of days…

Okay but we have a problem her seed would be Jesus you said. Okay then what is thy seed. Would that not be Jesus also then? Why is there 2 mentioned? Thy seed and her seed? Could you explain that. Thanks.

 

[Javl]

Javl,

After reading Mosacked’s post to me on my Thread: Orthodox-Are the Jews Still God’s Chosen People? I think he is behaving more like a “troll” than a person who desires an honest discussion.

This is a quote from the Indiana University.

kb.iu.edu/data/afhc.html
"People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt discussion, and to make trouble. The best response to a troll is no response. If you post a follow-up message, you are contributing to the resulting clamor and most likely delighting the troller. Before posting a response, consider the following questions:

* Have responses already been posted by others?

* Will my post add any information that others are not likely to be aware of already?

* Is the issue resolvable, or will discussion turn into name-calling?

* Should I send private email instead of posting publicly?

* Will I later regret the contents of what I am posting?"

I will not respond to any more of Mosacked’s posts. I think we have given him far too much attention already. It would be different if showed any sincerity in his posts.

Anna

You are quite right, Anna. I was hoping otherwise. I truly didn’t think that he would respond to my question. His actions and blasphemous statements and responses should have been the tip off, but then there was always hope.

I also noticed his “comments” on your Chosen People thread. I was going to respond, but knowing what he is, I will try not to give him any attention whatsoever. I hope others will also do the same.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

Simon prophesied to her that a sword would pierce her soul. That was Jesus on the cross. John 19:25-27

Jesus directly crushed the serpent and was directly struck by the serpent, while Mary in-directly did it by her cooperation to be the Mother of God!:thumbsup:

 

[Javl]

Huge sidebar–please accept my apologies in advance.

It is important to get the facts regarding Bible translations.

This is a quote from the Bible Translations Guide found under the Faith Tab of CAF:
Link: catholic.com/library/Bible_Translations_Guide.asp

Quote from the Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:

Quote from the Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in The Catholic Comparative New Testament:

So, a non-Catholic Bible became a Catholic Bible, and is now a Catholic recommended translation.

The Revised Standard Version of the Bible, was edited for Catholic use; and became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, The Ignatius Bible.

I do not prefer the KJV or the Douay-Rheims translations. However, they both have important histories and were great accomplishments in their own way.

My point is that Protestants and Catholics have more in common, when it comes to Bible translations, than most people realize. Let’s focus on the things that unite us.

Respectfully,
Anna

An excellent post. I hope all would read it and understand.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

You are quite right, Anna. I was hoping otherwise. I truly didn’t think that he would respond to my question. His actions and blasphemous statements and responses should have been the tip off, but then there was always hope.

I also noticed his “comments” on your Chosen People thread. I was going to respond, but knowing what he is, I will try not to give him any attention whatsoever. I hope others will also do the same.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I agree. It is better for us, especially during this holiday season to pray for him, and ask Jesus to help him to reconsider his ways.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Javl,

After reading Mosacked’s post to me on my Thread: Orthodox-Are the Jews Still God’s Chosen People? I think he is behaving more like a “troll” than a person who desires an honest discussion.

This is a quote from the Indiana University.

kb.iu.edu/data/afhc.html
"People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt discussion, and to make trouble. The best response to a troll is no response. If you post a follow-up message, you are contributing to the resulting clamor and most likely delighting the troller. Before posting a response, consider the following questions:

* Have responses already been posted by others?

* Will my post add any information that others are not likely to be aware of already?

* Is the issue resolvable, or will discussion turn into name-calling?

* Should I send private email instead of posting publicly?

* Will I later regret the contents of what I am posting?"

I will not respond to any more of Mosacked’s posts. I think we have given him far too much attention already. It would be different if showed any sincerity in his posts.

Anna

You are quite right, Anna. I was hoping otherwise. I truly didn’t think that he would respond to my question. His actions and blasphemous statements and responses should have been the tip off, but then there was always hope.

I also noticed his “comments” on your Chosen People thread. I was going to respond, but knowing what he is, I will try not to give him any attention whatsoever. I hope others will also do the same.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I’m glad you did not respond. Sadly, there are people who delight in insulting and stirring up trouble. They take advantage of the kindness and good nature of people who want to help. I think all we can do is pray for him.

Anna

 

[greggy53]

**

The Revised Standard Version of the Bible, was edited for Catholic use; and became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, The Ignatius Bible.

I do not prefer the KJV or the Douay-Rheims translations. However, they both have important histories and were great accomplishments in their own way.

My point is that Protestants and Catholics have more in common, when it comes to Bible translations, than most people realize. Let’s focus on the things that unite us.

Respectfully,
Anna**
While the newer version of the Catholic bible is the one we use in Mass here in the States. I for one find the modern gender -neutral editing very bland, and watered down. The Douay-Rheims English translation is the closest to the original vulgate translated by St Jerome, and has been endorsed by many leaders in the Church. It will be in use long after the “modern” translations have gone by the wayside. As far as focusing on things that unite us I can think of nothing better than first agreeing on what the word of God is and we can’t do that when everybody wants to write their own version of the story.

 

[Janet1983]

Where do you think your KJV came from? All the Bibles in the world started out from the Latin Vulgate. It was the only translation used by Christians for over a 1000 years. It was and is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew texts. It was first translated into the common tongue (latin) in the 4th century by St Jerome. Your bible is not only incorrect in many places it is also incomplete. The Douay Rheims Bible was first published in English some 30 years before the KJV.

How is my Bible incomplete or incorrect?
The scholars who translated the KJV wanted to make sure it was accurate apart from the translations of Jerome… How would you know whether my Bible is incomplete? Remember that the Original is not at all in Latin.

 

[greggy53]

How is my Bible incomplete or incorrect?
The scholars who translated the KJV wanted to make sure it was accurate apart from the translations of Jerome… How would you know whether my Bible is incomplete? Remember that the Original is not at all in Latin.

The Deuterocanonical is not included in modern versions of Protestant Bibles. These scriptures have been part of the NT since the Bible was first assembled by the council of Rome in 387 AD. The Douay-Rheimes contains the exact same books that were declared Holy scripture by the Church at that time. Older Protestant Bibles had them included as the Apocrapha.