"Catholics gave us the Bible": Is this a true statement?

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These prior “canonizations” are irrelevant to the discussion.
They most certainly are not irrelevant to this discussion. The topic is the development of the Bible as we know it today. It was a long road filled with many Biblical canons that the Catholic Church is not responsible for. So the answer to the question is both yes and no.
I THINK that Jerome was at first an admirer of Origen but then not.
I think you’re right. Some of his first writings were translations of Origen’s homilies.
 
Hi everyone! Is the statement “Catholics gave us the Bible.” a true statement? 🤷:confused: I believe it is because Catholics wrote the New Testament and came up with the entire Biblical canon. Am I right or am I wrong? 🤷:confused:
Essentially, the Scriptures are a product of the Church, not, as some Protestant churches teach, the other way 'round.

This being said, the Canonization discernment process did take a period of some centuries, for a variety of reasons. The need for an official Canon was two-fold: 1) what was to be specifically INCLUDED, and 2) what was to be specifically EXCLUDED. A necessary tension existed between these two factors. For example, Marcion, in order to support his heretical viewpoints, EXCLUDED everything that couldn’t be used to support his point of view. Some of the Gnostic sects INCLUDED texts (spurious or otherwise) which could be used to defend their heretical viewpoints.

Now, while it is true that there were certain books whose inclusion were extensively debated and eventually INCLUDED (II Peter, II, and II John, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and while it is true that there were certain books whose inclusion were extensively debated and eventually EXCLUDED (The Didache, I Clement, The Shepherd of Hermes) there was remarkable early virtual unanimity on the core of the New Testament – as can be demonstrated by the 2nd century (at the latest). This “core” included:

The Gospel According to St. Matthew
The Gospel According to St. Mark
The Gospel According to St. Luke
The Gospel According to St. John
The Acts of the Apostles
13 Letters of St. Paul
The First Letter of St. John
The First Letter of St. Peter

All these books enjoyed virtually universal acceptance very early on.
 
They most certainly are not irrelevant to this discussion. The topic is the development of the Bible as we know it today. It was a long road filled with many Biblical canons that the Catholic Church is not responsible for. So the answer to the question is both yes and no.
I think you’re close, but not quite on target. I would re-phrase your statement to read:
*It was a long road filled with many **proposed **Biblical canons that the Catholic Church is not **directly *responsible for.
 
They most certainly are not irrelevant to this discussion. The topic is the development of the Bible as we know it today. It was a long road filled with many Biblical canons that the Catholic Church is not responsible for. So the answer to the question is both yes and no.

I think you’re right. Some of his first writings were translations of Origen’s homilies.
The topic of the discussion is the very fact that the true Bible was brought about by the Holy Spirit through the Church. The calims of an agnostic are irrelevent.
 
I think you’re close, but not quite on target. I would re-phrase your statement to read:
*It was a long road filled with many **proposed ***Biblical canons that the Catholic Church is not **directly **responsible for.
The canons I’ve been talking about were not merely proposals. Some were established canons, such as Marcion’s, that the Catholic Church did not approve. In terms of indirect responsibility, The Catholic Church cannot label someone a heretic then lay claim their work…even indirectly.
 
The canons I’ve been talking about were not merely proposals. Some were established canons, such as Marcion’s, that the Catholic Church did not approve. In terms of indirect responsibility, The Catholic Church cannot label someone a heretic then lay claim their work…even indirectly.
If the Catholic Church said, “Wow, we don’t have a clue what should be Canon, but this dude Marcion has got it going on (other than his little heretic teachings), so we’ll borrow his Canon”, then you may have a point. Marcion was his own little Pope and had his own little Canon. That’s got nothing to do with the Canon of the Catholic Church, because Marcion’s Canon can not be found to have influenced the Catholic Church’s determination of Her Canon in any way.
 
Hi everyone! Is the statement “Catholics gave us the Bible.” a true statement? 🤷:confused: I believe it is because Catholics wrote the New Testament and came up with the entire Biblical canon. Am I right or am I wrong? 🤷:confused:
jesus organised the first Catholic church there were 120 catholics in the upper room at Pentecost. Yes, we all know Peter was a Catholic and went to church regularly. All the first century christians where catholics and so yes, they wrote the bible and compiled it.

So yes, the first Catholic church was built by the apostles and they were all catholic and they put the bible together.
 
That’s got nothing to do with the Canon of the Catholic Church, because Marcion’s Canon can not be found to have influenced the Catholic Church’s determination of Her Canon in any way.
I’ve never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out the fact that the Catholic Church was neither the first nor the last party to develop a Biblical cannon.
 
Origen was the first great commentator on the whole Bible. A genius. He fell out of favor and we don’t have the bulk of what he wrote. I don’t think he ever became a formal heretic like Tertullian. He speculated so much that some of his stuff was too wild to be accepted by the Church, but he also wrote a lot of good stuff. I THINK that Jerome was at first an admirer of Origen but then not.
I think everyone is getting WAY too bent out of shape about what Robby S. said. In no way was he saying any of these canons, including the Muratorian Canon (which he didn’t mention: newadvent.org/cathen/10642a.htm ) were official.

Many books such as the Shepherd (by Hermas), the epistle of Pope Clement I to the Corinthians, and others were included in these “canons” – including the compilation of Scripture that Eusebius of Caesaria presented as a gift to Constantine to thank him for allowing the Council of Nicaea to happen safely (not that Constantine did much else to protect the orthodox Catholics from slaughter by Arians… given his own son Constantius was Arian).

Not all those books (Shepherd, Clement) were bad or heretical! But they were just not inspired. The Arian crisis helped force the Catholic Church to make a decision once and for all about the Scripture. The councils of Hippo (A.D. 393) and Carthage (397) ratified once and for all the official canon.

Bear in mind, Robby is right about the initial rejection of some books and acceptatnce of others.

St. Jerome in fact was AGAINST the deuterocanonical OT books and did not want them included. But as many here have said, it was not an INDIVIDUAL’s choice, but one of the Holy Spirit working through the WHOLE BODY of Christ, the Church.

Jerome’s objections were based on the fact that having studied in Jerusalem and being very familiar with Judaism, he felt that since the Jews rejected the deuterocanonicals in their council of A.D. 90 (bear in mind, this is AFTER the formation of the Catholic Church, who was using the deuterocanonicals!), the Catholic Church should too. But the Jews had no authority to canonize anything!

And even after A.D. 90, many diaspora Jews (notably in Ethiopia, the Maghreb, and Egypt) continued to use the deuterocanicals and do so until today.

The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible… read “HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE” by Rev. Henry Graham. Great book on the history of the canonization of the Bible.
 
I’ve never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out the fact that the Catholic Church was neither the first nor the last party to develop a Biblical cannon.
And I’m just pointing out that the Bible that is used today was given to us with the authority of the Catholic Church. All other Canons were just opinions and had no authority whatsoever.

So, as has been pointed out to you by others, Marcion’s and others canons are simply opinions. Some opinions had more weight than others, i.e Athanasius maybe. But these canons held up for opinion by all of these individuals (or groups) simply reflect the prevailing opinion (most often) of their specific region at their specific time. They were not binding in any way.
 
Emperor,

An " official " canon implies authority. If the Catholic Church had and continues to have the authority to make official the Sacred Scriptures, then individuals would be precluded from making official, their own canon.

If the Catholic Church does not have and never had such authority, who did and who does now. More importantly, if the Catholic Church did not have the authority to canonize the books of the bible then the bible is unauthorized and not official ( or from God ).

Removing books from the initial canon compiled by the Catholic Church eleven hundred years after the fact does not suddenly make the canon more official or more authoritative.
Both canons would be unauthorized.

The books themselves are inanimate and have no ability to authorize themselves. None of the books attempt to make an explicit claim to be self authoritative unless you take passages and find implied meaning, and then who has the authority to correctly discern the implied meaning?

Who among the thousands of Protestant Churches can authoritatively interpret scripture?
None can, but supposedly with the help of the Holy Spirit, each individual can and apparently the Holy spirit is handing out different answers to different people.

It’s an all or nothing proposition. Either the Catholic Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit,
cooperated with God’s desire that it reveal to man that which was to be revealed or it’s all unauthorized and fraudulent.

May the peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT
 
I believe the catholic did give us the bible…but only under the supervision of God himshelf.

Peace and blessings
 
Hi everyone! Is the statement “Catholics gave us the Bible.” a true statement? 🤷:confused: I believe it is because Catholics wrote the New Testament and came up with the entire Biblical canon. Am I right or am I wrong? 🤷:confused:
Without reading any of the previous responses I will say this.

The answer is that the “Christian Church”, which was “Catholic” (universal) and Unified under the authority of the Bishops and in communion with the Successor of Peter in Rome did compile the canon and thus gave us the Bible.

Now the reason I stated the above is because many non-catholic Christians take offence at the statement that the “Catholic” Church gave us the Bible. This is because when they hear such a statement they tend to view it in a different context. The context of one “denomination” (catholics) claiming ownership of “God’s Word”. (My apologies for my “generalization” here)
However it is important for both Catholics and non-catholics alike to recognize that the history of the Written Word contained in the volume commonly called “The Bible” did come through the offices of the “Pre-reformation” Christian church, commonly refered to as Catholic.
Now as for arguing this or that belief or interpretation, that is something quite apart from the origins of the Written Volume we call “The Bible”. Catholics however can make the very good claim that Magisterium has access to the largest, oldest and most complete collection of writings form the pre-reformation church dating back even to the early centuries after the Apostles. Given this great storehouse of writing and information, catholics can certainly have a great deal of confidence that the teachins of the Church are consistant with the teachings of the Apostles and ECF’s.

In summary - If you are debating with a NCC, be careful about using the “Catholics gave you the Bible” line. It may throw up more roadblocks than it would open doors. The history of the Bible is, of course, perfectly valid when one gets into issues such as the validity of the canon or the differing canons or the actual authority (belief in the inspiration) of the Bible books. But try to be careful in how you trace the Bible’s history so that you draw the other person toward the truth of your argument rather than cause them to “hunker down” in defence of their position.

Peace
James
 
The canons I’ve been talking about were not merely proposals. Some were established canons, such as Marcion’s, that the Catholic Church did not approve. In terms of indirect responsibility, The Catholic Church cannot label someone a heretic then lay claim their work…even indirectly.
Not exactly.

Marcion’s “Canon” (c. AD 140) consisted of Luke, Acts, and 10 letters of St. Paul. The Church did not have difficulty with these books, merely with how Marcion used them.

Prior to the 4th century, “canon” is an historically problematic word. It is important that we do not confuse “Books Used By” with “Established Canon”.

We can determine “Books Used By” by looking at citations throughout a particular author’s work. (This doesn’t mean, of course, that a particular author didn’t use other books – but that’s an argument from silence, unable to be determined either way.

In the 2nd Century, the books used by St. Polycarp (c. AD 150) included Matthew, Mark, Acts, 9 of St. Paul’s letters, I Peter and I John. The books used by St. Justin Martyr (c. AD 165) included all four Gospels, 10 of St. Paul’s letters and Revelation.

The so-called “Muratorian Canon” c. AD 200 represents a partial list of books (the beginning and ending of the fragment is lost – and the only extant copy dates 400-500 years after the original). The interest of this document lies primarily in its age and not its content, as both the writer and the reader are unknown.

In the 3rd Century we have lists of books used by Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 215), Hippolytus of Rome (c. 235) and Origen (c. 254).

Clement used the entire corpus of what would become the New Testament except for James, II Peter, and II John. He used in his writings a number of books later deemed non-canonical, including three which he admitted were disputed (the Protevangelium of James, the Acts of John and the Acts of Paul).

Hippolytus used almost the same books as did Clement with these two exceptions. He seems to have used II Peter and he did not use Jude. He recognized both Hebrews and II Peter as “disputed”.

Origen used the entire corpus of what would become the New Testament but recognized the disputed nature of James, II Peter, II and III John, and Jude. He also used, but recognized as disputed I Clement, Barnabas, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas. He specifically named and rejected 8 other documents which seems to have had gnostic or docetic tendencies.
 
The statement is, of course, rather misleading. Surely there are only two senses only in which it can be claimed that the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. First, it put the books of the New Testament into canonical form, a process not completed until the late fouth-century Council of Carthage; second, it provided the world with the first Latin translations of the Bible as a whole, though the Bible was very scarce until the time of the printing presses. That said, without the Catholic Church it is doubtful the Bible would ever have become a coherent whole let alone become known to the world.
I am doubtful whether my response here can much be helped by reference to individual books as the fact are matter of history. Much more complex issues arise concerning the integrity of each and every part of the Bible, which as we all know is inspired rather than self-attesting. The Church and the Tradition came before the book of the Church.
 
Continuing with my previous post:

In the 4th Century, we begin to see lists of books actually promulgated by Church leadership, rather than books merely used by scholars.

Eusebuis’ Ecclesiastical History (c. AD 325) provides three categories of books: Those books which were accepted; those which were disputed; and those which were rejected. In his “Accepted” list we find all four Gospels, Acts, all 13 letters of St. Paul, Hebrews, I Peter and I John. In his “Disputed” list, we find James, II Peter, II and III John, Jude, Revelation, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Acts of Paul, the Revelation of Peter, Barnabas, and the Gospel of the Hebrews. The final six books in this list were shortly thereafter rejected. In his “Rejected” list we find the Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthias; and the Acts of Andrew and John. All five of these books pretty much disappear from historical sight at this time.

There was a Canon promulgated at the Council of Laodicea in AD 363 which promulgated a list of books identical to what was recognized as the New Testament with the exception of Revelation. St. Gregory of Nazianzus (d. AD 389) promulgated an identical list. St. Athanasius, in his Festal Letter of AD 367 provided the full 27 book corpus, noting that while the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas were non-canonical, they could be read in churches.

The Canons promulgated by St. Augustine and St. Jerome, and the Canons promulgated by the Council of Hippo (AD 393) and by the Councils of Carthage (AD 397 and 419) all provide the same full list of 27 books. There was also a Council in Rome in AD 382 at which many scholars (including myself) but not all believe that the full 27 book canon was promulgated as well.

The Council at Carthage in AD 419 is of particular importance because at the end of the statement on Canonical Scripture we find the following text: (emphasis mine)

Let this be sent to our brother and fellow-bishop Boniface (of Rome) and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things that we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

From this point forward, there was virtually no discussion of the Canon (either Old OR New Testament) until the Protestant Reformation!
 
The Word of God had its beginniings with the ancient scribes who put together the Hebrew Bible. By the sixth century they were succeeded by a group known as the Moscoretes, who continued to preserve the Word of God, for the next 500 years. By the tenth century A.D., the Moscoretes of Tiberia, led by the family of ben Asher, carried the text on the 12th century and it was reconized as the only form of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Daniel Bombery printed the first Robbinic in 1515-1525. A second edition by Jacob ben Charyyim was also printed by Bomberg. This was adopted by most King James translators.
The King James draws on manuscripts from the dead sea caves–in a few places the Hebrew became obecure (1611) but has been resolved by the King James through the Hebrew text…the King James follows the Greek speaking churhes and was first published in 1516.
Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, and King James are the favored historical pages that carried on the historical manuscripts.
2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God.” The Bibles true writings owe existence to the authority, power and providence of God.
Deu. 4:2 " You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Rev. 22:19 “And if anyone cancels or takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written inthis book.”
The Church claimes to have given the world the Bible. But as stated above (please do your own investigating as to the original writings, not accepting just my word or the word of the church), in Deu. and Rev. the church added to and changed the given word to encompass its own beliefs and dogmas. Thus they gave a bible inspired by man and not of God.
Recalling that Jesus was not Catholic. He was a Jew. The seven churchs listed in the NT were not Catholic. No where in God’s scripture does it tell us the Catholic church is the one and only church. He gave us seven different examples of “church” and we are to take the best from Pauls teachings to the people of the early churchs.
Please do your own history checking to understand the departure that took place.
 
The Word of God had its beginniings with the ancient scribes who put together the Hebrew Bible. By the sixth century they were succeeded by a group known as the Moscoretes, who continued to preserve the Word of God, for the next 500 years. By the tenth century A.D., the Moscoretes of Tiberia, led by the family of ben Asher, carried the text on the 12th century and it was reconized as the only form of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Daniel Bombery printed the first Robbinic in 1515-1525. A second edition by Jacob ben Charyyim was also printed by Bomberg. This was adopted by most King James translators.
The King James draws on manuscripts from the dead sea caves–in a few places the Hebrew became obecure (1611) but has been resolved by the King James through the Hebrew text…the King James follows the Greek speaking churhes and was first published in 1516.
Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, and King James are the favored historical pages that carried on the historical manuscripts.
2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God.” The Bibles true writings owe existence to the authority, power and providence of God.
Deu. 4:2 " You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Rev. 22:19 “And if anyone cancels or takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written inthis book.”
The Church claimes to have given the world the Bible. But as stated above (please do your own investigating as to the original writings, not accepting just my word or the word of the church), in Deu. and Rev. the church added to and changed the given word to encompass its own beliefs and dogmas. Thus they gave a bible inspired by man and not of God.
Recalling that Jesus was not Catholic. He was a Jew. The seven churchs listed in the NT were not Catholic. No where in God’s scripture does it tell us the Catholic church is the one and only church. He gave us seven different examples of “church” and we are to take the best from Pauls teachings to the people of the early churchs.
Please do your own history checking to understand the departure that took place.
The King James draws on the scrolls from the Dead Sea Caves?!? Weren’t these scrolls unearthed in the 1950’s???

I think a quick fact-checking will find your story is riddled with errors. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
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