Catholics have confession, what do Protestants have if they sin?

[Winstone]

1beleevrfFirst of all, by all means as your brother in Christ, I am not saying God has not or will not forgive you,if you do not confess to a priest. I am NO ONE to say such a thing. And yes, one is free to go directly to God even as Catholics. I just want to clarify that I am not trying to disrespect your faith or religious traditions. If I have then I owe you an apology.

Peace

If, as a Catholic, you are free to go directly to God (and I assume you mean to obtain forgiveness for any sins committed) why do you need to go to a priest? Your faith in the merits of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for you. Why do you need a priest to say your sins are forgiven when it is plainly written that they are in God’s Holy Word - The Bible. Isaiah 1:18 - ‘‘Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.’’ Read the words to this hymn of worship:

Thank You for the cross Lord
Thank You for the price You paid
Bearing all my sin and shame
In love You came
And gave amazing grace

Thank You for this love Lord
Thank You for the nail pierced hands
Washed me in Your cleansing flow
Now all I know
Your forgiveness and embrace

Worthy is the Lamb
Seated on the throne
Crown You now with many crowns
You reign victorious
High and lifted up
Jesus Son of God
The Darling of Heaven crucified
Worthy is the Lamb
Worthy is the Lamb

Let’s just spread the love of Christ and testify with our lives to the Risen Lord. Catholic/Protestant - let’s share the love of the Lord to each other. God Bless, Winstone - London, UK

 

[Winstone]

WELCOME HOME!’’

The most common thing I hear is “to recite the sinners prayer” an INNOVATION caused by broadcast medias limited time constraints. IT has NO effect at all. And certainly should not permit anyone to feel secure in the forgiveness of sin.

PROTESTANTS who HAVE NO OPPORTUNITY to know the truth; WHICH excludes all on this Forum; can make a PERFECT act of contrition; BEGGING God’s mercy and that combined with SINCERE contrition, with a firm desire to NOT sin in the same manner again; MIGHT be acceptable to God.?

The thing is ; it MUST BE “perfect”. And one can never know with certainity that it is

That friends is why Christ Himself instituted the Catholic Sacrament of Confession… the only way to know for certain one’s sins ARE forgiven.

This sacrament is a completation of OT practice of God using priest and is now Perfected because it provides GRACE.

John 20:19-23.

God Bless,
Pat

It would seem, Pat, that you cannot and will not even consider the non-Catholic position and remain intransigent in upholding the Catholic position on confession. Jesus is much more understanding than you and he had many occasion to be trapped by the priests and teachers of His days. One response to the priests, the so-called holy men of Israel:

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

Many-a-time our Church - at the top and the bottom - has misled the faithful - no wonder the non-Catholic Christians appeal to scripture in their defence. The Church is Holy because of the Saviour not its adherents. In your zeal to prove Catholicism to be ‘true’ you think it o.k. to hit out at our separated brethren, and I do not believe even our Holy Father in Rome would approve of your method. The Pope on our behalf has had to apologise so often for the injustices done by the Church historically when, like yourself, they were so right! We have to understand that our teaching, our understanding and our traditions come from Rome, who say that they can be adequately understood from the Bible - Protestantism in all its forms do not subscribe to this, and still are producing ‘saints’.

God grant you wisdom!

Winstone - London

 

[PJM]

=RealEstateCarol;
***You’re sincerity got to me. So I’ll share with you what the verses selected actually mean.

Certainity all Salvation is through GOD. Look at the many examples of GOD [before Jesus time of Visitation] and how salvation was effected***

Num.15: 28 “And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.”

Lev.4: “Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace ; and the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven”

Selvation is always [even in the CC] Through God in the Name of Jesus.

Jesus made that death payment.

Jesus died that one’s sins MIGHT [not have] been forgiven

**Matt.26: 28 "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many **for the forgiveness of sins"
Luke.24: 47 “and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem”.

Acts.2: 38 "And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” [UP to the time of the Baptism. BUT that does prevent one from sinning after have received the sacrament].

One of the most critical RULES for understanding the Bible is THAT NO ONE PASSAGE MAY CONTRADICT ANOTHER PASSAGE. wERE THIS PERMITTED THE BIBLE WOULD BE WORTHLESS FOR TEACHING FAITH [SEE 2nd. Tim. 3:16-17]

All we have to do is accept the payment Jesus made.

John.20: 19 to 23 “When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Matt.16: 19I [Jesus]] I will give you [Peter / My CC] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

NOTE: V. 21: " As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." MEANING with My powers and authority as GOD!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

**AND Jn. 3: **5 say’s:"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” AND John 3:36 say’s: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. **Matt.19:17: **** “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 5:14 "[14]"Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you.” 1 Jn. 1:8-10 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ** If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.**”

First this refers to the OT “works of The Law”-covenant NOW replaced by the One new Covenant.

2nd. Eph. 10 “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand,** that we should walk in them.” ** Eph. 2:19-21 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] ***built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, ***
in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple [SINGULAT /The CC] in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit”.

SORRY I have to ruun BUT if you desire more information just send me a PM.

May God Bless you and grant you HIS Wisdom.

Pat
PJM

 

[Winstone]

Depends on what you mean by being “neglected”. The more holy churches that all peoples have access to, the better - it’s that simple. God gets all the glory - many Protestants would agree with that. When we acknowledge that, and come to his Temple, we share in that glory.

That simple - that simple: the famous Kahlil Gibran known for ‘‘The Prophet’’ observed in his days buildings to man’s glory at the expense of the poor. ‘‘Oh Jesus, they have built these churches for the sake of their own glory, and embellished them with silk and melted gold. . . . They left the bodies of Thy chosen poor wrapped in tattered raiment in the cold night. . . . They filled the sky with the smoke of burning candles and incense and left the bodies of Thy faithful worshipers empty of bread. . . . They raised their voices with hymns of praise, but deafened themselves to the cry and moan of the widows and orphans. Come again, Oh Living Jesus, and drive the vendors of Thy faith from Thy sacred temple, for they have turned it into a dark cave where vipers of hypocrisy and falsehood crawl and abound.’’
Kahlil Gibran (1883 - 1931)

As for the invisible Church (believers in general) - yes, I’m sure the “Roman Catholic Church” has been thoroughly guilty of not providing enough food and shelter for people over the years (amongst other things). Nevertheless, as I stated before: That doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church itself (separated from the sins of individual men) is at fault. It is still Christ’s Church, the one He established here on earth - and nothing can change that. No institution is perfect, but only the Catholic Church was founded on and by Jesus Christ. Also simple to understand.

Disagree: Jesus stood before the most learned and influential people of His day. Did the Sanhedrin not have authority - wasn’t the body of truth to be found in the Books of Moses and their interpretation of the Holy Scriptures and they had the Temple of Solomon - the extravagance of our Church beggars belief. Please don’t minimise the persecution, execution, intimidations and lies perpetrated by the Church to protect its own interests. The quicker we acknowledge our culpability historically the better we shall all be purified.

Then why does Ephesians 4:30 warn us: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. Yes, we are “sealed”, but why the warning? Doesn’t sound like “eternal security” to me. 1 Corinthians 10:12 - Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. How can we ever be truly sure of our Salvation and our hearts without the Church (the Catholic Church) Christ established on earth?

The Bible teaches that true hope breeds holiness and endurance, not license and indifference. As a matter in fact, the one who believes hope is not an expectation of the fulfillment of God’s promises ought to consider what James says in James 1. Here the Bible describes the person who doubts as unstable, doubleminded, and tossed about by waves. If hope is wishy-washy, the Christian life be wishy-washy.

So there are two theological extremes which are both unbiblical. One is the “once-saved, always-saved” doctrine. The other unbiblical extreme is the “once-saved, barely-saved” doctrine. Why are there extreme doctrines? Usually they come about as a “reaction” to another extreme or false doctrine.

Yes, He did it the first time - but salvation can be lost. How can a Protestant be sure that they’re saved to begin with? This is why Christ established His One Church on earth, to make us certain that we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Being a Protestant (at least for me) was a very lonely, unfruitful road. “Feeling” like you’re saved isn’t enough; it needs external assurance, and works.

We have seen that it is not absolutely impossible to fall away after being saved. At the same time, we have also seen that a Christian can live in confident expectation that he or she is going to be with God in Heaven. So it is imperative that Christians understand true biblical hope so they can live with boldness and confidence and not fall away in despair.

I entered this debate because I believe the non-Catholic world is so often misrepresented. It seems to annoy us Catholics that those of non-Catholic Christian faith manage to arrive at faith in God through Jesus Christ, believe implicity in the Bible as the only rule of faith and manage to live without the organisation of the Catholic Church. In so doing, misrepresenting Protestant beliefs, so much spirituality is lost and the possibility of brotherly love unlikely.

Protestants, who are faithfully following Christ according to their consciences i.e. their understanding of the supreme sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins will be saved. They may stumble and fall on their way to heaven but they will be saved. We only fall when we are wounded - we don’t have to go back to the beginning. The saviour will carry us to safety and back to the Father. Surely we Catholics can appreciate that. We are the Church Militant but our only weapon should be LOVE. The question ‘’…what do Protestants have?’’ was posed by a Catholic - the following hymn lots of non-Catholic Churches sing has the answer:

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain:
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

God Bless
Winstone - London

 

[Holly3278]

I grew up Southern Baptist and I also tried out a Pentecostal church. Southern Baptists and Pentecostals have altar calls while at church where you go up and confess your sins to God. Other than that, they just confess their sins to God privately. However, this is not effective for mortal sins unless it is perfect contrition that they have.

 

[PJM]

=Brywan;7965273]Back in the day when I was an evangelical Christian—

I believed that confessing my sins privately to God was enough and that if I had wronged someone, I needed to make restitution if necessary–(but how much restitution is necessary?) I remember a little exercise I was taught to do–write out all your sins (to God) and then write I John 1:9 across the list “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Then I tore up the list. I was taught to believe that all my sins–past, present, future are already forgiven because of Christ’s death on the cross–“confessing” meant “to agree with God”
–to agree with God that I had sinned and to agree that my sins were already forgiven…

My dear friend in Christ, Allow me to use this as a objective lesson.

Salvation has a direct path that essentially has ONLY two choices in reply to the most important question anyone can ask if they really wish to get to heaven.
WHO"S IN CHARGE?

I [me] am or** I AM =Exod.3: 6 **And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. [14] God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.’” …this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

God permits US to freely choose to attempt our way [which is what you’re trying; or to learn what God actually teaches. **In this ORDER look up and READ 1 Jn.1: 8-10, 1Jn. 5: 16-17 and John 20:19-23; then reread Mt. 16-19.

Friend, “if we are faithful” means one thing only. IF WE DO IT GOD’s WAY! Humility and obedience are key essential s to everyone’s salvation. The CC practice of forgiveness of sins through PRIEST is not new! It dates back at least as far as Moses and His brother and Brothers sons: High priest and priest

Lev.16: 21 “and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness” … Num.15: 28 “And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.”

This practice in carried for by Jesus Christ who both completes and perfects the practice of CONFESSING to HIS PRIEST [and Yes it remains God alone who forgives sins… the role of the Catholic priest is different[/COLOR]]. Now even sins intended can be forgiven! And NOW one; obtains GRACE for Confession as God demands; and ONLY in this manner can anyone be assured that their sins have been forgiven.

John 20:20-23 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Friend that is a Direct COMMAND from Jesus to His Church/ HIS PRIEST **[John.15: 16] **You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. NOTE that Jesus empowers His Church with the EXACT powers and authority the Father Gives to Jesus. IF you…IF YOU!” means there are no other ways ACCEPTABLE to anyone who CAN KNOW GOD”S TRUTH. This means you too!

If you’d like to know more send me a PM,

God Bless you!
Pat

 

[PJM]

=1beleevr; Yours is as intangible as ours! You see, you cannot cite an example of the Apostles forgiving sin in the Bible, nor can you tell me how you know you are forgiven!

My dear friend in Christ,

Salvation has a direct path that essentially has ONLY two choices in reply to the most important question anyone can ask if they really wish to get to heaven.
WHO"S IN CHARGE?

I [me] am or I AM = Exod.3:6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.’” …this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations."

** Matt.26: 28** “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” . Matt.9: 2 “And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” Jn. 20:21-23 ** "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you.[EXACTLY] As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” [22] "Receive the Holy Spirit.* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained***.” *Mt. 16:19 I [JESUS] will [HAVE] give[n] you [ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ***

God permits US to freely choose to attempt our way [which is what you’re trying; or to learn what God actually teaches. In this ORDER look up and READ 1 Jn.1: 8-10, 1Jn. 5: 16-17 and John 20:19-23; then reread Mt. 16-19.

Friend, “if we are faithful” means one thing only. IF WE DO IT GOD’s WAY! Humility and obedience are key essential s to everyone’s salvation. The CC practice of forgiveness of sins through PRIEST is not new! It dates back at least as far as Moses and His brother and Brothers sons: High priest and priest

Lev.16: 21 “and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness” … Num.15: 28 “And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.”

This practice in carried for by Jesus Christ who both completes and perfects the practice of CONFESSING to HIS PRIEST [and Yes it remains God alone who forgives sins… the role of the Catholic priest is different]. Now even sins intended can be forgiven! And NOW one; obtains GRACE for Confession as God demands; and ONLY in this manner can anyone be assured that their sins have been forgiven.

John 20:20-23 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Friend that is a Direct COMMAND from Jesus to His Church/ HIS PRIEST [John.15: 16] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. NOTE that Jesus empowers His Church with the EXACT powers and authority the Father Gives to Jesus. IF you…IF YOU!” means there are no other ways ACCEPTABLE to anyone who CAN KNOW GOD”S TRUTH. This means you too!
If you’d like to know more send me a PM,

The reason one sees NO SPECIFIC EXAMPLES was bevause it was a GIIVEN and accepted FACT! Acts 20: 9-12 And a young man named Eu’tychus was sitting in the window. He sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer; and being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. But Paul went down and bent over him, and embracing him said, “Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him.” **And they took the lad away alive, and were not a little comforted. ** This is an example of Christ Powers being passed to HIS Apostles and CC.

God Bless you!

Pat

 

[Eugenius]

I have been present at services in Episcopalian and United Church of Christ congregations. As part of the service the entire congregation says something like:

Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.

The priest/pastor then says something like:

Know, sinner, that your sins have been forgiven. Sin no more.

I do not know if every congregation in those denominations follow the same liturgy.

 

[Mark_David]

:
That simple - that simple: the famous Kahlil Gibran…

Gibran wasn’t a Christian.

lease don’t minimise the persecution, execution, intimidations and lies perpetrated by the Church to protect its own interests. The quicker we acknowledge our culpability historically the better we shall all be purified.

Our? I haven’t had anyone persecuted or executed. And I’ve never minimized the unholy works of men throughout Catholic history. But, as I said before, one needs to separate the Church itself from the sins of individual men. Seems like you reject that orthodoxy - that the Catholic Church is just another man-made church and open to all judgment and criticism.

:I entered this debate because I believe the non-Catholic world is so often misrepresented.

I beg to differ on that; the Catholic Church is way more misrepresented than Protestantism. And, having been a Reformed Baptist myself, I know the theologies well on their own terms.

:It seems to annoy us Catholics that those of non-Catholic Christian faith manage to arrive at faith in God through Jesus Christ, believe implicity in the Bible as the only rule of faith and manage to live without the organisation of the Catholic Church.

Doesn’t annoy me. Catholic teaching makes it clear that if one has true faith in Christ outside the visible Church, then that’s fine. However, that doesn’t mean it’s a wise or safe direction to go, and it’s a mortal sin if one realizes that Catholic theology is true, yet continues to remain outside the Church.

:In so doing, misrepresenting Protestant beliefs, so much spirituality is lost and the possibility of brotherly love unlikely.

What is being “misrepresented” here, by the way?

 

[Winstone]

Gibran wasn’t a Christian.

One doesn’t have to be a Christian to recognise how far our Church has strayed from Jesus of Nazareth, particularly in its ‘‘materialist’’ expression of faith, who told us that His Kingdom is not of this world. A non-Catholic friend of mine observed when watching the Opening Ceremony of Vatican II way back when - ‘‘Diamonds are a girl’s best friend’’. However he was of a Maronite Lebanes Christian family. Few if any modern writings have the kind of scriptural aura about them as the writings of Kahlil Gibran. Was he a Christian or was he a Muslim? Yes, he was both, and more. He was one of the few people whose religious expression seemed to lie somewhere far above the petty differences of sect. Was he an American or was he a Lebanese Arab? Yes, he was both, and more. His identity recognized no borders separating human cultures or traditions. Was his religion humanistic, centered in the real world, putting human concerns first, or was his religion mystical, appealing to a supra-rational reality that transcends the world? The answer is yes, both, and more.

        I cannot think of any modern inspirational writer who has spoken so meaningfully to such a broad range of human civilization, whose writings seem to transcend all cultures and all theologies, as has Kahlil Gibran.  He is admired by a vast audience in the Christian world as well as the Muslim world.  His religious voice speaks to the skeptic and the free-thinking humanist as well as the spiritualist and mystic.

Our? I haven’t had anyone persecuted or executed. And I’ve never minimized the unholy works of men throughout Catholic history. But, as I said before, one needs to separate the Church itself from the sins of individual men. Seems like you reject that orthodoxy - that the Catholic Church is just another man-made church and open to all judgment and criticism.

Of course Our! We may not personally be or have been responsible but we have to explain why Jesus’ Church has had such a cruel, greedy and excessive political power. My Kingdom is not of this world so why does the Church founded by Jesus Christ arrogate to itself political power, material wealth and as we know has tried to hide by deception ‘‘unholy priests’’. We are targeted from every direction and yet you seem to give such a simple but unacceptable explanation.

I beg to differ on that; the Catholic Church is way more misrepresented than Protestantism. And, having been a Reformed Baptist myself, I know the theologies well on their own terms.

Good. I am defending Protestantism as a Catholic simply because the question was posed by a Catholic.

Doesn’t annoy me. Catholic teaching makes it clear that if one has true faith in Christ outside the visible Church, then that’s fine. However, that doesn’t mean it’s a wise or safe direction to go, and it’s a mortal sin if one realizes that Catholic theology is true, yet continues to remain outside the Church.

Faith, or the ‘‘true Faith’’! I only really mix with your average Catholic and their understanding of ‘‘Catholic theology’’ is minimal whereas most can talk about their love of Christ - I suppose the important elements of the Bible have spoken to them and enriched their lives more than a dry understanding of ‘‘Catholic theology’’ - be careful of the pharasees!

What is being “misrepresented” here, by the way?

Many aspects of Protestant beliefs. It has now strayed from the original question, which is fine!

May the Holy Spirit come down on you and all our Church and fill our hearts with the love of Jesus Christ for the Father!

Winstone - London

 

[Neo_The_One]

Catholic church have confession because priest is available, but Protestant church doesn’t. Protestant church have pastor available, you can think of him as a religious counselor.

 

[john_aurelius]

We should remember that we also pray directly to God for forgiveness but not for mortal sins.

In the early Church, mortal sins were usually numbered as Apostacy, murder and Adultery. These three sins had penitent believers in front of the Church “begging” for forgiveness, sometimes for years (you can read about them from the Ecumenical councils).

One of the reasons this system of private confession and absolution was introduced was to help the Church to forgive sinners after baptism.

My experience of the Presbyterian Church left me scarred. They have no mechanism of forgiveness from the CHURCH.

It may well be that GOD had forgiven my sins but that “Church” never did. In fact, from their appeal to Scripture, they were about to start treating me “as a pagan”…

Absolutely horrendous… Ecumenicalism and “brothers in Christ” discussions - not misrepresenting Protestants is all well and good, but they are not always correct and maybe they should assess the level of their own "perfection"before they judge others.

 

[JonNC]

Catholic church have confession because priest is available, but Protestant church doesn’t. Protestant church have pastor available, you can think of him as a religious counselor.

No. I know my pastor is an ordained servant of Christ and His Church. So, when he declares Absolution, he is doing so In Persona Christi.

Jon

 

[pablope]

pablope;7969351:

The thing that makes your argument weak, is not enough examples of men or women of God in the Old Testament and New Testament, having their sins forgiven through another. You cited only two examples, both shaky at best! Do you have any about Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph?

Ibeleevr…why are the arguments weak? Because of a few examples?And how many examples is enough?

It looks like you have an issue with God and the Bible. The Bible is what it is, and that is what God handed down. Either it is enough for you or it is not.

God provided you only those examples…for a true believer, that is enough, some even do not need examples to believe.

To the unbeliever, to those with closed eyes…they are indeed shaky and nothing will ever convince an unbeliever…he will always look for something else to justify his state of unbelief. There will always be a never ending set of conditions.

It looks like you are imposing your own conditions to the Bible, and you are then questioning what God provided and just shows your lack of faith and trust in God.

Is the Bible an authobiography of Moses, Abram, Isaac, jacob, that every nook and cranny of their lives should be in the Bible? Or is it something else?

 

[pablope]

pablope;7969351:

The thing that makes your argument weak, is not enough examples of men or women of God in the Old Testament and New Testament, having their sins forgiven through another. You cited only two examples, both shaky at best! Do you have any about Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph?

The Biblical Roots of Catholic Confession

davidlgray.info/blog/2011/06/the-biblical-roots-of-catholic-confession-reflection-on-readings-at-mass-for-pentecost-sunday/

To talk more about the Biblical roots of the Sacrament of Confession, I pulled an excerpt from the Sixth Chapter of my Book Cooperating with God: Life with the Cross where I explained how this new Sacrament is the fulfillment of old.

“Like all the sacraments of the Catholic Church, the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation finds its roots in the Old Covenant, and enters the New Covenant by the way of our Lord’s promises not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. “I came not to abolish, but to fulfill the law and the prophets” (Mt. 5:17). Indeed, Kingdom theology is grounded in this promise from God that all things old will be new again. The summation of Fulfilled Theology is this: Whatever God had commanded His people to do in the Old Covenant, we must continue to do those very same things in the New Covenant, but only in their fulfilled/renewed manner. Fulfilled Theology is the cornerstone of Kingdom theology.

“Because sin damages our relationship with God and neighbor, there is a natural call within us to heal what has been ruptured. Our method of Cooperating with God’s desire for us to atone for our sins and to return to Him was achieved in the Old Covenant through the means of animal sacrifice. Whereas, circumcision brought us into the community of those waiting to be redeemed, sacrificial offering is what allowed us to remain wholly a part of that community.

“The English word ‘atone’ is derived from the phrase ‘at one’. To be ‘at one’ with someone is to be in harmonious relationship with that person. Therefore, ‘atonement’ is the process through which harmony is restored to that which was previously cacophonic. The Hebrew world for atonement, as used in the Old Testament, is kafar (meaning: remedy). It is clear from the use of this word, as it is attached to the Old Covenant sacrificial system, that kafar is both a final and an ongoing process. For example, there were the daily sin offerings, through which the priests and the people make kafar for their sins (Cf. Exo. 29:36; Lev. 4), as well as the official Day of Kafar (Atonement), through which God gave forgiveness for the entire community for their sins (Cf. Lev. 16).

“The Old Covenant sacrificial system was perpetual because sin was perpetual and, because of this ongoing reality, it took on the feature of being a medicinal/healing/chronic care Sacrament, just as it is the case with the New Covenant Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

“The most vital feature of the Old Covenant Sacrament of Kafar was the act of confession in the presence of a priest. Either in private or public, the pertinent had to make his sins known to the priest, who then, in his role (as mediator), would confess the sins (as known by him) of the person/people to YHWH before the sacrifice was offered up (Cf. Lev. 5:5, 16:21, 26:40; Num. 5:7; Neh. 9:3-2; Mishnah, Yom Kippur 4:1-2). In all cases of sin offerings, either the priest or the lay penitent was required to lay their hands upon the head of the goat after they had confessed their sins (Cf. Lev. 4). In this way, the goat literally took on their sins through the imposition of laying hands. Through the shedding of the goat’s blood, the individual or community was made clean and restored to God again (Cf. Heb.9).

“Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who came to take away the sins of the world, is Himself the fulfillment of the Old Covenant Sacrament of Kafar. The death of Christ on the Cross, and our participation in His sacrifice through our Baptism (Cf. Rom. 6:3), answers the question: ‘How is it that we are cleansed of humanities’ Original Sin and all personal sin committed before we were Baptized?’ It also answers the question: ‘If the Old Covenant circumcision and animal sacrifice only brought the Jews into the community waiting to be redeemed, how it is that we, in the New Covenant, become full citizens of the community being redeemed in the Kingdom of God?’

“What remains to be answered and fulfilled in the New Covenant is the question: ‘How is it that our sins that we commit after Baptism, and which continue to damage our relationship with God, are healed?’ I answer that by saying, it is the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (with confession being the chief cooperative act) that heals the damage that sin causes, and restores us back into harmonic relationship with God and neighbor.

“As in the Old Covenant, the act of confession during the Sacrament is made through an ordained priest. Whereas in the Old Covenant sins were confessed to the High Priest, who served as mediator between God and man, in the New Covenant we have one Mediator in Jesus Christ, who is our High Priest (Cf. Heb. 3:1). It is our Catholic priests (the successors of the Apostles and the ordained participants in the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ) who we now confess our sins through. These priests either forgive or do not forgive our sins, not because they mediate for us, as the Old Covenant priest did, but because they participate in Christ Jesus’ High Priesthood, they are truly and actively In the person of Christ during the celebration of the Sacrament. It is only to these Apostles and their successors that Christ Jesus gave the authority and power to forgive sins in His name: “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (Jn. 20:23).

 

[PJM]

=1beleevr;7969248]

Knowing you’re forgiven, is not easy to put into words whereby the human brain can comprehend; but you know there is a change, undeniably! But I was wondering how catholics know they’re forgiven? Is by virtue of being catholic, do you feel euphoric, like I do, or what? Also, try to explain Psalms 32:5-6 to me, using your magical catholic lenses! And was David absolved of ALL of his sins through Nathan! Don’t you believe that Nathan just delivered God’s messages to David?

." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

NOTES: “Sent exactly as the FATHER sent Jesus” In His Power and His Authority! And "IF, and ONLY IF, the priest ask God to forgive the sins of the Petentent are they actually forgiven. IF the priest does not grant absolutuin [very rare], the sins are NOT forgiven.

ONLY those made PERFECT by Gods GRACE and GOOD WORKS can get inti heaven.

Rev.21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life”
Rev.20: 12" And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done" Acts.17:30 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,” **Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

EVERYONE on CAF is given by Christ the opportunity to Know HIM and WHAT HE COMMANDS. Choosing to deny or ignore it will be JUDGED by Christ as Denial of his teachings.

Psalm 32:5-6 does not calim that confessing directly to God results in forgiveness of ones sins, for two reasons. It was OT practice to use priest and this was an act NOT VOIDED by the New Covenant.[Heb. 8:13]. Also READ please: Num.15: 28 “And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven”** **“And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
**35 ** and the priest shall burn it on the altar, upon the offerings by fire to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.”

Space prohibits further info. Send me a PM if you want more information.

God Bless you!
Pat

 

[jhookjoe]

Donney, my Missouri Senod Baptist friend, says they make an “alter call”.
I seen them do this. It is between them and God. All I know is what Catholics feel when they are absolved from thier sins and completed penance as God gives them through a priest. They must never know that wonderful release that we know.
They are no different from a tribe that has never heard of a Christain God. How does God judge pagans who also are seeking forgivness for thier sin?
He also says they have a “White Throne Judgement” at the end of thier life. That sounds like thier interpretation on Purgatory.
Now all they need to do is get to know Our Ladys intercession, recognize the successor of Peter, Pope Benny the 16th, and hold priest in reverance like Melchizedek and then enter the RCIA program. Not that big of a leep.

 

[1beleevr]

1beleevr;7970864:

pablope;7969351:

Ibeleevr…why are the arguments weak? Because of a few examples?And how many examples is enough?

It looks like you have an issue with God and the Bible. The Bible is what it is, and that is what God handed down. Either it is enough for you or it is not.

God provided you only those examples…for a true believer, that is enough, some even do not need examples to believe.

To the unbeliever, to those with closed eyes…they are indeed shaky and nothing will ever convince an unbeliever…he will always look for something else to justify his state of unbelief. There will always be a never ending set of conditions.

It looks like you are imposing your own conditions to the Bible, and you are then questioning what God provided and just shows your lack of faith and trust in God.

Is the Bible an authobiography of Moses, Abram, Isaac, jacob, that every nook and cranny of their lives should be in the Bible? Or is it something else?

Anyone who knows anything about crime and the law, knows that the more witnesses or evidence in a criminal case, the greater the chances of a finding of guilt! Besides, the choices you have supplied are vague at best, and left to interpretation by both sides! Listen to what David says in Psalms 5:32,“Finally, I confessed all my sins to You, and stopped trying to hide my guilt. I said, I will confess my rebellion to the Lord. And You forgave me. All my guilt is gone.” On occasion, the eyes, and ears of catholics are closed to the truth, also. And, as a believer, and member of the Body of Christ, how can I impose my own conditions on the Bible?

 

[JonathonofOhio]

pablope;7980597:

1beleevr;7970864:

Anyone who knows anything about crime and the law, knows that the more witnesses or evidence in a criminal case, the greater the chances of a finding of guilt! Besides, the choices you have supplied are vague at best, and left to interpretation by both sides! Listen to what David says in Psalms 5:32,“Finally, I confessed all my sins to You, and stopped trying to hide my guilt. I said, I will confess my rebellion to the Lord. And You forgave me. All my guilt is gone.” On occasion, the eyes, and ears of catholics are closed to the truth, also. And, as a believer, and member of the Body of Christ, how can I impose my own conditions on the Bible?

I couldn’t help but interject after reading your comment, because I hear this all the time about “being left to interpretation”.

This is exactly your problem. You recognize no authority but your own when the bible clearly shows that there IS an authority and that that authority is the Church, and the authority given to the Church was given to her by Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. No one came to Peter or Paul, or any of the other Church Fathers to obtain a book so they could self-interpret it. They were taught by the Church and the scripture was used as a teaching aid not as the authority. The first heresies were a result of people not wanting to listen to authority, and wanting to interpret scriptures for themselves.

Peter talks about this:

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. " 2 Peter 3:16 (DRB) – they recognize no authority and self-interpret the scriptures without any instruction.

And Paul writes to Timothy some guidelines about how he should behave himself in the Church of God (1 Timothy 3) and then makes a statement that the Church is the authority (the pillar and ground of Truth).

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” - 1 Timothy 3:15 (DRB)

And we know there is only ONE Truth, and so there must only be ONE Church, just as there is only ONE God.

 

[onenow1]

1beleevr;7984711:

pablope;7980597:

I couldn’t help but interject after reading your comment, because I hear this all the time about “being left to interpretation”.

This is exactly your problem. You recognize no authority but your own when the bible clearly shows that there IS an authority and that that authority is the Church, and the authority given to the Church was given to her by Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. No one came to Peter or Paul, or any of the other Church Fathers to obtain a book so they could self-interpret it. They were taught by the Church and the scripture was used as a teaching aid not as the authority. The first heresies were a result of people not wanting to listen to authority, and wanting to interpret scriptures for themselves.

Peter talks about this:

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. " 2 Peter 3:16 (DRB) – they recognize no authority and self-interpret the scriptures without any instruction.

And Paul writes to Timothy some guidelines about how he should behave himself in the Church of God (1 Timothy 3) and then makes a statement that the Church is the authority (the pillar and ground of Truth).

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” - 1 Timothy 3:15 (DRB)

And we know there is only ONE Truth, and so there must only be ONE Church, just as there is only ONE God.

Hi, Jonathan, this is indeed the crux of this matter.

Peace:coffeeread: