Catholics have it wrong?

[boppaid]

Agnos, you have been around here long enough to be held accountable for the history of the word “worship” and its specific delineation regarding the veneration of the saints and the specific worship due only to God alone.

I haven’t been here that long. Could you explain it to me? Thanks!

 

[BrianH]

I have been studying Revelations for over thirty five years.
And I can tell you that the prod’s( have it all wronge.)
If they can tell me what the SEVEN THUNDERS SAID TO THE CHURCHS as in Revelations 10/4,with out leaveing Revelations as In Revelations 22/18then I will say they have it right.walt2000

35 years, book of Revelation, that is a long time

 

[walt2000]

Catholics have it wrong?
If The prods think they are right ,Rev. is the sum of all the rest of the books in the old test .and new test .well Prod’s are all wrong and no one has anything 100%.Ask them to answer the question I put forth .And I personally would put my money on the catholics. and I ask who is right,Christ through the holy spirit reveals all, 100%?Rev.calls it Babylon walt2000

 

[walt2000]

What does this post have to do with this thread? We are not discussing the book of Revelation here.

We are discussing who is right,If the catholics are wronge. walt2000

 

[walt2000]

no but were talking about herecy

I agree .walt2000 take the ? mark out who is right.

 

[Zooey]

In my 20 years as a Protestant, most of them didn’t read their Bible either. They relied on their pastor’s sermons to tell them what they “should” know. The unfortunate thing is, too many Christians in general don’t read their Bible enough. Its not just one faith alone that is lapsed in this.

Sad, but true…

i understand what you’re saying, but that was not the topic of this thread. i do think you have a point though. although i would say that, on average, protestants read their bibles more that catholics do. i would say that is an average. i would say that catholics hear the bible more than protestants do.

Well…Maybe.
I know some of my fellow Methodists, who do read the Bible, but seem to manage to miss the point, however…As in, they don’t believe what they read. They do, however, believe everything that they read in:shrug: Barclay’s Commentaries. The irony of this is not lost on me, but the folks that I speak of, are dear,sweet, elderly ladies, who no doubt live a far better Christian life than I do. Certainly, they have done so, for far longer than I have, and I love them just the same…while wanting to take them and just–http://bestsmileys.com/angry1/8.gif shake them!!!http://bestsmileys.com/angry1/4.gif.

My son’s former baptist pastor did a “Doctrinal Two Step” that would have Dancing With the Stars proud when he tried to use scripture to dis-prove the Eucharist to me. Tried to tell me it was pure symbolism.

A long time friend of mine, a German Lutheran also went to great lengths trying to prove that, although Jesus was “present” in the bread, He left right after communion. This same friend also insisted that Catholics pray to statues as if they were gods.

Each of these faiths say the other got it wrong in reguards to some of the major doctrines, like baptism and communion. and they Both say Catholics blew it, so how do these protestant faiths determine who is right or who is wrong? or do they not waste their time with each other and both just turn to the Catholics?

Oh, golly, you have no idea! Have I ever told you all the story about the time that the Baptist pastor down the road from my church, stopped in to visit my [then] pastor at the parsonage, and announced, “I am here to convert you from Methodism to Christianity!” ?? Pastor Terry said, he was glad that his wife wasn’t home; that she would probably have “twisted his arm behind him, and thrown him down the front steps onto the sidewalk”. (I suspect that Terry was right…)

I couldn’t make these things up…

 

[JPatton]

Will a Southern Baptist worship in a Methodist church and believe all that is taught?

Will a Church of God of Prophesy worship in a Freewill Baptist church and believe all that is taught?

The one thing that most every denomination had in common was that the “Catholics have it wrong” which is why you should worship with us (Name your Protestant denomination here). Seems like maybe they may also believe that each other have it wrong as well, least in part.

These questions popped into my head when I had my conversion and needed to know where I should worship (former atheist).

for clarification, when I say “Taught”, I am refering to Official Doctrin of that particular faith.

“Catholics have it wrong” does seem to be a generally common belief. I am close to “Swimming the Tiber” myself and my wife (evangelical) constently brings up accusations toward the CC usually accompanied by some commentary from a Protestant source. No matter what I say in defense or what evidence I give her (biblical & historical) she refuses to believe it. Any scriptural evidence is the “wrong interpretation” and any historical evidence is “not scriptural or not in the Bible”. Some things to them (generally speaking) are just so hard to except that they just don’t. Here are the big issues :

1. The Pope claiming to be infallible (thinks he’s high & mighty,above the people)
2. Praying to Mary & the Saints (thinks is idle worship)
3. Purgatory (not biblical-man made)
4. Visable Church (the CC is legalisit)
5. Confession to Priests (not biblical-thinks their high & mighty,above the people)
6. Eucharist (it is idle worship, not biblical)
7. Faith & Works (have to earn their salvation)
8. Priests (thinks their high & mighty,above the people,with all their strange robes)
9. Don’t incourage reading scripture
10. Ritualistic (not biblical,almost cult like)
11. Scripture & Tradition (the CC’s authority is not biblical)
12. Traditions (their traditions and teachings are man made & not biblical)

There are probably a few more but these are always brought up. One thing is for sure, defending these claims has me studying scripture more than before! I think this quote will always sum things up :

Not 100 in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is. – Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

Slainte’ (to your good health)
Jamie

 

[Deconi]

“Catholics have it wrong” does seem to be a generally common belief. I am close to “Swimming the Tiber” myself and my wife (evangelical) constently brings up accusations toward the CC usually accompanied by some commentary from a Protestant source. No matter what I say in defense or what evidence I give her (biblical & historical) she refuses to believe it. Any scriptural evidence is the “wrong interpretation” and any historical evidence is “not scriptural or not in the Bible”. Some things to them (generally speaking) are just so hard to except that they just don’t. Here are the big issues :

Jamie, your wife’s objections mirrors one other woman I know! (Prebytarian all her life before I walked past her.)

‘Her’ stumbling block though was “who came up with the Bible then?” If everything we need to know is in there, and it is inspired by God, why did He give it to The Catholic Church? If Jesus established The Catholic Church and the Apostles spread it and passed it on throughout the ages, ** doesn’t that mean that Jesus Christ and the Apostles were ALL CATHOLICS?!!**

You can imagine the uproar! But logic is undeniable. We ‘knew’ Christ is God before we were born! We ‘knew’ the Apostles were Saints, before were born! We ‘knew’ The Bible was inspired and inerrant, The Word of God, before we were born!

How?!! Because it was professed before we were born! Who was doing that? Who ‘decided’ all that? Who said? So we traced everything back to the Reformation. Hang on! But the Saints were already there. Who made them Saints? Who said they were “Saints”?? The Bible was already there! Where did all this come from? You already know where our ‘research’ (on her behalf) led.

Reluctant, she still is. Grudging, even. But logic, is logic.

 

[Deconi]

1. The Pope claiming to be infallible (thinks he’s high & mighty,above the people)

The Pope, like his Blessed Precedent, Peter, is a fallible man. Denied Christ 3-times; falls asleep when he should be alert, etc. He is not infallible. However, as God alone revealed only to Peter,** “You are, Christ, the Son of the Living God”** to Peter, so the Holy Spirit guides him in like manner when necessary, to ensure The Church is guarded against error. Not 24/7. Only when he ‘teaches’ from the Chair of The Holy Saint.

1. Praying to Mary & the Saints (thinks is idle worship)

Idol worship is a little involved. God Himself instructed Moses to set up a Bronze Serpent for the people to see as a ‘reminder.’ Proper interpretation of these passages is a must, for the Atheists can espouse several variations of interpretations.

The Apostles tell us to pray for each other and those who have gone before, who are in Heaven, for God is “the God of the Living! Not dead!”

Mary, is even more involved, but there are excellent explanations abound in this forum, alone. (Is that Sola Forum?) Scriptures is clear, from the declaration of Gabriel through to Her Assumption, why she is considered, Mother of God, (the Son) Bride of The Holy Spirit, The Queen of Heaven.

1. Purgatory (not biblical-man made)

Scriptures is also clear. Maccabees, the story of the mother with 7 sons is a good beginning.

1. Visable Church (the CC is legalisit)

Scriptures, as St Paul teaches, the visible Church is set on a mountain for all to see! Not hide in the shadows until Joseph Smith came along, but paid in 'blood of the matyrs."

1. Confession to Priests (not biblical-thinks their high & mighty,above the people)

Scriptures, tells of ‘The Keys of the Kingdom’ given to Peter, only! The power to forgive sins is general for the Apostles and disciples, but ‘the Keys’ is…um…KEY!

1. Eucharist (it is idle worship, not biblical)

Scriptures leaves no other interpretation. Jesus went to GREAT PAINS to explain Himself. Still, even His disciples walked away!

1. Faith & Works (have to earn their salvation)

Scritpures is clear that it is NOT faith alone. St James said so!

1. Priests (thinks their high & mighty,above the people,with all their strange robes)

The ‘dress’ for offering sacrifice to God was instructed by God to Moses! This has never changed! Jesus Christ Himself, by “accident of the ridiculing Romans” was also “dressed” in like manner when He offered The Ultimate Scarifice! (Scarlet / Purple - with blood- Robe)

1. Don’t incourage reading scripture

For decades, Catholics didn’t NEED to take a Bible to Mass! We do not question The Word of God, so we do not need to see or examine which passage is being read.

But since 7 years of age, we could recite all the books in Scriptures, which Testament they were in, and where to find them. This was not important as ‘understanding’ that THE WHOLE THING was from God.

1. Ritualistic (not biblical,almost cult like)

Again, Scriptures. The Jews still adhere to the rituals because they were given by God! The difference now is, Christ has given the ‘extension of those rituals.’

1. Scripture & Tradition (the CC’s authority is not biblical)

Without Tradition, there is a book. Tradition says where it is from and Who it is from. Without Scriptures, there are empty Traditions.

1. Traditions (their traditions and teachings are man made & not biblical)

Scriptures, Scriptures, Scriptures.

There are probably a few more but these are always brought up. One thing is for sure, defending these claims has me studying scripture more than before! I think this quote will always sum things up :

Not 100 in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is. – Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

Slainte’ (to your good health)
Jamie

Gotta love it when everything comes together.

God Bless ‘the journey and the research.’

 

[JRKH]

“Catholics have it wrong” does seem to be a generally common belief. I am close to “Swimming the Tiber” myself and my wife (evangelical) constently brings up accusations toward the CC usually accompanied by some commentary from a Protestant source. No matter what I say in defense or what evidence I give her (biblical & historical) she refuses to believe it. Any scriptural evidence is the “wrong interpretation” and any historical evidence is “not scriptural or not in the Bible”. Some things to them (generally speaking) are just so hard to except that they just don’t. Here are the big issues :

1. The Pope claiming to be infallible (thinks he’s high & mighty,above the people)
2. Praying to Mary & the Saints (thinks is idle worship)
3. Purgatory (not biblical-man made)
4. Visable Church (the CC is legalisit)
5. Confession to Priests (not biblical-thinks their high & mighty,above the people)
6. Eucharist (it is idle worship, not biblical)
7. Faith & Works (have to earn their salvation)
8. Priests (thinks their high & mighty,above the people,with all their strange robes)
9. Don’t incourage reading scripture
10. Ritualistic (not biblical,almost cult like)
11. Scripture & Tradition (the CC’s authority is not biblical)
12. Traditions (their traditions and teachings are man made & not biblical)

There are probably a few more but these are always brought up. One thing is for sure, defending these claims has me studying scripture more than before! I think this quote will always sum things up :

Not 100 in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is. – Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

Slainte’ (to your good health)
Jamie

Good luck on your Journey Home.
Others have addressed the individual points. I will jsut say to keep on keepin’ on. Love her and debate with her.
Probably the biggest issue will be to get her to understand the origion and intention of the Bible. Once she understands that, the rest of the doubts will begin to fall.

One other thing. When she says that the Pope and other clergy think they’re “high and mighty” and “above the people”, does she think she is now putting the people above God?
When she listens to her preacher does she accept what he tells her? How does she know he is right?

Sorry. Don’t want to get into debating details when I don’t have all the facts.

Peace and God Bless you Both

James

 

[JPatton]

Good luck on your Journey Home.
Others have addressed the individual points. I will jsut say to keep on keepin’ on. Love her and debate with her.
Probably the biggest issue will be to get her to understand the origion and intention of the Bible. Once she understands that, the rest of the doubts will begin to fall.

One other thing. When she says that the Pope and other clergy think they’re “high and mighty” and “above the people”, does she think she is now putting the people above God?
When she listens to her preacher does she accept what he tells her? How does she know he is right?

Sorry. Don’t want to get into debating details when I don’t have all the facts.

Peace and God Bless you Both

James

This actually came up the other night. She says she does’nt see the pastor(s) as having total authority. They would’nt say they do either. She does recognizes him/them as a leader(s) though. When the pastor is teaching and she questions something she will compare it to scripture and pray about it. Personal interpretation I guess.

As for Priests and the Pope,(in her own words) she claims they are not amongst the people. They are in a way seperate from the people. They don’t relate with the laymen, they sit up in front of the crowd preaching all dressed up performing rituals (insense,bells,the Eucharist) like their all high and mighty. The pastor(s) are with the people at bible studies,church functions and gatherings. The Priests are not.

The evangelicals and non-denoms I am in contact with usually have a negative attitude towards the CC. It’s very Sad. I was’nt raised in a christian home (but a loving one) and all I knew of the CC was what the people at church told me and a few non-C friends. So when I began to study Catholicism on my own I had no bias history or background to affect my opinion. All I knew of Christianity was evangelicalism and that was only for the last 2 yrs.I pretty much had an open mind like when I first received Christ. It was’nt very hard to see the truth in the CC when I compared it to the teaching I had been recieving. Once someone already has a strong opinion formed it can be hard to understand the CC fully. Thank God for the Holy Spirit!

 

[po18guy]

So when I began to study Catholicism on my own… Thank God for the Holy Spirit!

This explains it all. Praise God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
He illuminated your heart, and will use you to draw your wife to the fullness of truth. Amen.

Christ’s peace.

 

[walt2000]

I do not agree with this question.
Catholics have it wrong?
I am catholic, and I am right.Mind you, I seem to be the only one.In Revelations anyway .The rest of the book see a priest.walt2000

 

[holdencaulfield]

Will a Southern Baptist worship in a Methodist church and believe all that is taught?

Will a Church of God of Prophesy worship in a Freewill Baptist church and believe all that is taught?

The one thing that most every denomination had in common was that the “Catholics have it wrong” which is why you should worship with us (Name your Protestant denomination here). Seems like maybe they may also believe that each other have it wrong as well, least in part.

These questions popped into my head when I had my conversion and needed to know where I should worship (former atheist).

for clarification, when I say “Taught”, I am refering to Official Doctrin of that particular faith.

In the Protestant Churches the Holy Roman Catholic Church has always been used as a scapegoat. They will attack every little thing that we say in order to gain members. They are willing to take the Bible out of context, ignore Tradition, and remove books from the Bible. But no we Catholics have it all wrong even though we practice the same things as the first Christians did. Transubstantiation is so wrong even though it’s in the Bible. They will always use the Catholic Church as a scapegoat as well because it is the largest Church as well. One of my favorite quotes of Martin Luther is that the Pope is the antichrist.

 

[peary]

One of my favorite quotes of Martin Luther is that the Pope is the antichrist.

**Too bad Martin Luther didn’t realize that, in psychology, it’s called ‘projection.’ **

 

[holdencaulfield]

**Too bad Martin Luther didn’t realize that, in psychology, it’s called ‘projection.’ **

I just think that it’s wrong that he broke his vow to God.

 

[po18guy]

I just think that it’s wrong that he broke his vow to God.

I have decided to pray for Martin Luther. I pray that he is in purgatory and thus has hope of an eternity with God.

Christ’s peace.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I have decided to pray for Martin Luther. I pray that he is in purgatory and thus has hope of an eternity with God.

Christ’s peace.

That’s a good idea.