Catholics have it wrong?

[Joyousguard]

Nobody is accusing catholics of worshipping the saints as God. Thats why I posted the link to new advent. For everyone to see the level of worship catholics are giving to saints.

Actually this is a valid point and often times one of the problems protestants have with the Catholic Church is the “worship” of saints. However, the understanding is incorrect and obvious by the definition given in New Advent that the term is used only it would seem because nothing else quite fits. It would probably be a good idea to change it for the understanding of non Catholics.

In Greek, there are three terms for what we would call “love”. Philos, eros and Agape. While they all mean love in a certain kind of way, they are by no means equal nor in the same context or understanding. Somewaht similiar in our culture when someone makes the claim that they “love pizza”. It does not mean they truly “love” pizza obviously. On those lines it can be held true and keeping with the positon that Catholics do not worship Mary and the Saints but is merely a term to get across the closest meaning.

 

[ErikaA]

Where I live in the deep South, most people tend to think that Catholics are “idol worshippers” who think the Pope is perfect.

I still say, as a Protestant, that Papal infallibility is the biggest problem for most Protestants.

 

[sandusky]

Deconi:

I think the main Protestant concern should be that when any or the pastors stretches out their hands and says "I will pray for you now, to Our Lord Jesus" that somehow that Pastor’s prayer will bypass all the interceding prayers of the Angels and Saints, and the Holy Mother of Our Lord, and proceed unfiltered and unerringly to Our Father in Heaven!

Such insolence!

You cannot saunter into the White House to see the most powerful leader of the freeworld, nor approach the throne room of the Queen of England **without appointment, being escorted and heralded into their presence **but any ‘Jimminy Cricket’ can approach The Holiest of Holy, The Alpha and Omega, The Creator and Maker of Heaven and Earth??!! A Supreme Being that requires the soul to be stainless and ‘as white as snow’ to be in The Presence!!??

INSOLENCE!!

**Hebrews 4:14-16

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.**”Draw near with confidence to the throne of grace.”

Who needs Mary and the saints, when one can draw near to God, on his own, and receive mercy, and grace? :ehh:

 

[East_and_West]

I think because He’s Merciful and Loving, He’s approachable. Isn’t that more or less what Jesus teaches. In fact, isn’t Jesus as God approachable? Don’t know if I agree with your reasoning there.

If we shouldn’t be asking the angels and saints to pray for us becaue God is approachable then, by the same reasoning, we should not be asking eachother to pray to God for us.

 

[BrianH]

^ Lets see brian deal with that!

I am still waiting for the response, I know the OP is busy and I am not being impatient just stating a fact, from my previous post.

If you say deal with prayer to Mary and Saints, I understand people do that. I do not because I do not think I have to.

 

[Joyousguard]

Where I live in the deep South, most people tend to think that Catholics are “idol worshippers” who think the Pope is perfect.

I still say, as a Protestant, that Papal infallibility is the biggest problem for most Protestants.

Papal infailability is obviously a big disagreement with Protestanst and Catholics but it is definetly overblown.

Papal infailability says that the pope can, but mind you very, very, very rarely uses it, declare certain teachings infailible. This is no more revolutionary then declaring infailiably that Christ indeed was the Son of God and did perform miracles. All Christains believe certain teachings to be infailible. Somewhere along the way someone decided that the 4 Gospels were indeed the actual life and teachings of Christ (simplified for this discussion) yet no one argues with that? No matter what we all believe, some are going to disagree. If i don’t believe in gravity does it meanthat gravity does not exist? If I don’t believe Christ is the Son of God, does not make me right. Christ was the Son of God. This is a fact and an unescapable reality. We could even say it is an infailable teaching.

The pope does not go out and just declare things infailible. John XXIII made mention that he never spoke infailiably.

 

[bengal_fan]

I think the main Protestant concern should be that when any or the pastors stretches out their hands and says "I will pray for you now, to Our Lord Jesus" that somehow that Pastor’s prayer will bypass all the interceding prayers of the Angels and Saints, and the Holy Mother of Our Lord, and proceed unfiltered and unerringly to Our Father in Heaven!

Such insolence!

You cannot saunter into the White House to see the most powerful leader of the freeworld, nor approach the throne room of the Queen of England without appointment, being escorted and heralded into their presence but any ‘Jimminy Cricket’ can approach The Holiest of Holy, The Alpha and Omega, The Creator and Maker of Heaven and Earth??!! A Supreme Being that requires the soul to be stainless and ‘as white as snow’ to be in The Presence!!??

INSOLENCE!!

No wonder He is so Merciful and Loving!

Only such a Being can put up with it!

good thing God isn’t the president and that He is the perfect king. thank goodness the curtain was torn so that we can all approach the holy of holies. your reasoning is wrong deconi, but i understand your contempt for those who don’t understand the nature of the throne they approach. they don’t need to be perfect, but they do need to be humble to be able to “boldly” approach the throne of God. however, we CAN and should approach His throne. there is no need to be “heralded”, but it blessed us and those who pray for us (including Mary and the saints) to allow others to be part of the process of us being reconciled to God. if He didn’t want others involved, He would have the rocks and the trees cry out, but He wants us to intimately involved with each other. i think that is the point of asking for the intercession of others.

 

[bengal_fan]

in my experience, i do think that #1 is correct:

most catholics do not read the Bible.

this isn’t to say they don’t get to experience scripture. the liturgy is a wonderful tool for hearing the word of God. but most catholics do not open their Bible. many do, but because of sheer numbers calling themselves catholic, i think it is safe to say “most” don’t read the Bible.

as for the rest, i think most comes down to misunderstanding or starting with different definitions of words used.

 

[homewardbound]

in my experience, i do think that #1 is correct:

most catholics do not read the Bible.

this isn’t to say they don’t get to experience scripture. the liturgy is a wonderful tool for hearing the word of God. but most catholics do not open their Bible. many do, but because of sheer numbers calling themselves catholic, i think it is safe to say “most” don’t read the Bible.

as for the rest, i think most comes down to misunderstanding or starting with different definitions of words used.

In my 20 years as a Protestant, most of them didn’t read their Bible either. They relied on their pastor’s sermons to tell them what they “should” know. The unfortunate thing is, too many Christians in general don’t read their Bible enough. Its not just one faith alone that is lapsed in this.

 

[ErikaA]

in my experience, i do think that #1 is correct:

most catholics do not read the Bible.

this isn’t to say they don’t get to experience scripture. the liturgy is a wonderful tool for hearing the word of God. but most catholics do not open their Bible. many do, but because of sheer numbers calling themselves catholic, i think it is safe to say “most” don’t read the Bible.

as for the rest, i think most comes down to misunderstanding or starting with different definitions of words used.

Yes, I agree. I told my husband the other day that, regardless of whether I ever convert to Catholicism, exploring the idea has been truly eye-opening for me. I see now how Protestants misconstrue Catholic teaching and distort the meanings and the doctrine. That said, I think Catholics often dismiss Protestants without fully attempting to understand us (them). You all have to admit that Bonhoeffer was pretty awe-inspiring. No theological slouch there.

Funny how we denigrate others for beliefs we only assume they hold.

 

[homewardbound]

Who needs Mary and the saints, when one can draw near to God, on his own, and receive mercy, and grace? :ehh:

Catholics teach very much on God’s mercy and grace and focus on everyone having a personal relationship with Him. Since converting my personal relationship and closeness with God has grown more than I could have ever imagined.

The only reason why Catholics ask for Mary and the saints to pray for them is just for that…to ask for prayers. Just as you would ask your pastor or family or friends here on Earth to pray for you during rough times…Catholics believe that those who have gone onto eternity before us can hear us and are able to pray for us, so why not ask them to? If thats wrong then its wrong to ask those on Earth to pray for us as well.

Thats what I’ve grasped on the concept in the year and a half I’ve been studying Catholicism.

 

[AgnosTheist]

In my 20 years as a Protestant, most of them didn’t read their Bible either. They relied on their pastor’s sermons to tell them what they “should” know. The unfortunate thing is, too many Christians in general don’t read their Bible enough. Its not just one faith alone that is lapsed in this.

most people take religion for granted. that goes for catholics, jews, muslims, hindus & protestants.

 

[Joyousguard]

in my experience, i do think that #1 is correct:

most catholics do not read the Bible.

this isn’t to say they don’t get to experience scripture. the liturgy is a wonderful tool for hearing the word of God. but most catholics do not open their Bible. many do, but because of sheer numbers calling themselves catholic, i think it is safe to say “most” don’t read the Bible.

as for the rest, i think most comes down to misunderstanding or starting with different definitions of words used.

I would agree with you and disagree at the saem time. While many Catholics do read their Bible I think it becoems a question of “how much and how often?” A protestants understanding and devotion to reading the Bible has beenalwasys something I as a Catholic have admired and almost been envious of

However, it might be something of a generalization, even though i’m sure its probably true, that Protestanst are much more focused on the Bible because of “sola scriptura”.

Catholics do obviously read the Bible but do so alnong with the writtings of the Desert fathers or some of the Saints. Catholics distribute their time between the Bible and many other works in the desire to gain a better understanding of God.

The Bible is “the book”, but it helps tremendously to look at the understanding and writtings of much holier men then us who have spent lifetimes studying, praying and learning. Catholics look to the Bible but also to the understanding and knowledge that has come from studying the Bible over the last 2000 years.

 

[Joyousguard]

most people take religion for granted. that goes for catholics, jews, muslims, hindus & protestants.

A bit too much of a generalization.

 

[ErikaA]

Joyousguard, you are absolutely correct. If there is one thing woefully absent in Protestantism it’s an understanding of Church history and the Fathers. Particularly lacking is any study on development of the Canon. A major, major omission in my opinion.

I’m Lutheran and I can tell you understanding Canonicity is not emphasized at all.

 

[love4mary]

I suppose the point I was trying to express (badly it seems), is that, from my studies and also speaking with friends, lets take for example Southern Baptist (least the ones I am familiar with) teach a different doctrine on Baptism and Communion then say the Methodist church.

So many protestant denominations will tell Catholics how wrong we have it concerning our understanding of Scripture and the teachings of Jesus but yet in their own sphere, they don’t agree with each other on everything.

To me, and this is only My opinion, All faithfilled protestants need to come to a full agreement concerning doctrine and the teachings of Jesus Christ, they need to get on the “same page”.

As a former atheist, I can tell you that baptism is started me on my journey and also confused me on this journey. Some protestant churches teach that baptism aids in salvation while others see it only as a public statement of commitment to Jesus, but the act itself does not aid in salvation (my son’s former southern baptist church).

So, kinda curious as to who has it wrong, or maybe the better question,Who has it RIGHT?!

I know the correct answer to that last question.

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ the problem is that sects are all lumped together as ‘protestants’.

Like where is the sense in lumping anglicans & evangelicals together under one group name? thats so wrong. its an unfortunate accident of history.

 

[BrianH]

I suppose the point I was trying to express (badly it seems), is that, from my studies and also speaking with friends, lets take for example Southern Baptist (least the ones I am familiar with) teach a different doctrine on Baptism and Communion then say the Methodist church.

So many protestant denominations will tell Catholics how wrong we have it concerning our understanding of Scripture and the teachings of Jesus but yet in their own sphere, they don’t agree with each other on everything.

 

[Joyousguard]

I suppose the point I was trying to express (badly it seems), is that, from my studies and also speaking with friends, lets take for example Southern Baptist (least the ones I am familiar with) teach a different doctrine on Baptism and Communion then say the Methodist church.

So many protestant denominations will tell Catholics how wrong we have it concerning our understanding of Scripture and the teachings of Jesus but yet in their own sphere, they don’t agree with each other on everything.

To me, and this is only My opinion, All faithfilled protestants need to come to a full agreement concerning doctrine and the teachings of Jesus Christ, they need to get on the “same page”.

As a former atheist, I can tell you that baptism is started me on my journey and also confused me on this journey. Some protestant churches teach that baptism aids in salvation while others see it only as a public statement of commitment to Jesus, but the act itself does not aid in salvation (my son’s former southern baptist church).

So, kinda curious as to who has it wrong, or maybe the better question,Who has it RIGHT?!

I know the correct answer to that last question.

Well if all protestants would come to a common agreement they would probably be called Catholics:thumbsup:

The difficulty with protestantism as a whole is that the seeds of Reformation, “love it or leave it”, are still being planted and cultivated today. The Protestant Reformation has almost never ended and been going on for almost 500 years.

 

[mercygate]

Where I live in the deep South, most people tend to think that Catholics are “idol worshippers” who think the Pope is perfect.

I still say, as a Protestant, that Papal infallibility is the biggest problem for most Protestants.

Don’t forget Mary! And then there’s Mary. And did I mention Mary?