Catholics have it wrong?

[bengal_fan]

In my 20 years as a Protestant, most of them didn’t read their Bible either. They relied on their pastor’s sermons to tell them what they “should” know. The unfortunate thing is, too many Christians in general don’t read their Bible enough. Its not just one faith alone that is lapsed in this.

i understand what you’re saying, but that was not the topic of this thread. i do think you have a point though. although i would say that, on average, protestants read their bibles more that catholics do. i would say that is an average. i would say that catholics hear the bible more than protestants do.

 

[mercygate]

Hebrews 4:14-16

**Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. **

**For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. **

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”Draw near with confidence to the throne of grace.”

Who needs Mary and the saints, when one can draw near to God, on his own, and receive mercy, and grace? :ehh:

And who’s up there around the throne of grace? Not only the 24 elders but also "a great multitude . . . from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, . . . clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. Y’know: saints.

They’re not in the way, they’re part of the team.

Sounds like a lot of good company to me.

 

[mercygate]

Yes, I agree. I told my husband the other day that, regardless of whether I ever convert to Catholicism, exploring the idea has been truly eye-opening for me. I see now how Protestants misconstrue Catholic teaching and distort the meanings and the doctrine. That said, I think Catholics often dismiss Protestants without fully attempting to understand us (them). You all have to admit that Bonhoeffer was pretty awe-inspiring. No theological slouch there.

Funny how we denigrate others for beliefs we only assume they hold.

Hey! I’m Catholic, but I’m the captain of the “Bonhoeffer for Sainthood” team. A great example of Christian life in every way. He’s the one who convinced me that abortion is murder.

 

[Metaron]

i think thats reasonable. my observation as i came from a predominantly catholic nation. i even grew up among my catholic grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins (yeah in the philippines its so poor that its common for such a group to share one house), we constantly prayed the rosary but the black bible only gathered dust over the years.

This is illogical. Just because your family was biblically iliterate doesn’t mean the majority of Catholics are. I think Catholic theology is much more substantial than Protestant, especially Fundamentalist, theology. And besides, before the printing press many, many people had a simple belief by what they were taught orally by priests and friars. So, most of them didn’t read it. They learned from the clergy, as there was no economic way to produce Bibles for every family.

thats not a myth. Catholics Dulia worship Mary & the Saints.

The proper term is “venerate” (dulia), as worship has connotations of latria. Catholics definitly do not put mere saintlings on par with the most holy Trinity.

 

[Metaron]

And who’s up there around the throne of grace? Not only the 24 elders but also "a great multitude . . . from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, . . . clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. Y’know: saints.

They’re not in the way, they’re part of the team.

Sounds like a lot of good company to me.

I think Protestants have a rather truncated view of the universe over against Catholicism. In Catholicism, there is a great and wonderful Community, All praying for one another and cheering one another on. The Church militant, on Earth, the Church suffering, in Purgatory, and the Church Triumphant, in Heaven. It is a great and glorious Family, full of love for one another, all encouraging. In Protestantism… well, there is just a me and God thing, which, in turn, is also not absent from Catholicism. But we don’t exclude our holy ancestors who have passed on, whether in Purgatory or Heaven, and we don’t disparage the saints either. Or the holy angels, cherubim, seraphim and ophanim.

 

[AgnosTheist]

This is illogical. Just because your family was biblically iliterate doesn’t mean the majority of Catholics are.

i just used myself as an example. my observation is based on a lifetime of observation in a predominantly catholic country. most catholics dont read the bible, at least in the philippines. most filipinos are even too poor to own one.

especially these days that secularism is booming? young people take religion for granted.

Catholics definitly do not put mere saintlings on par with the most holy Trinity.

i think even protestants understands that fact.

 

[Metaron]

i think even protestants understands that fact.

Not all. Some fundamentalist have accused me of Mary-Goddess worship. I guess most Protestants don’t think so tho’. Like my mom, she just says I “pay too much attention to Mary”. Which is alot different than the Mary-Goddess worship thing.

 

[Joyousguard]

I think it’s fairly safe to say that the New Advent article about the veneration of the saints with the term “worship” is inaccurate and should be changed to eliminate confusion.

Here are much more appropriate descriptions:

957 Communion with the saints. “It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself”:

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

946 After confessing “the holy catholic Church,” the Apostles’ Creed adds “the communion of saints.” In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: “What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?” The communion of saints is the Church.

 

[JRKH]

I think the main Protestant concern should be that when any or the pastors stretches out their hands and says "I will pray for you now, to Our Lord Jesus" that somehow that Pastor’s prayer will bypass all the interceding prayers of the Angels and Saints, and the Holy Mother of Our Lord, and proceed unfiltered and unerringly to Our Father in Heaven!

Such insolence!

You cannot saunter into the White House to see the most powerful leader of the freeworld, nor approach the throne room of the Queen of England without appointment, being escorted and heralded into their presence but any ‘Jimminy Cricket’ can approach The Holiest of Holy, The Alpha and Omega, The Creator and Maker of Heaven and Earth??!! A Supreme Being that requires the soul to be stainless and ‘as white as snow’ to be in The Presence!!??

INSOLENCE!!

No wonder He is so Merciful and Loving!

Only such a Being can put up with it!

I am surprised at some of the things I see on this board.
Jesus taught us to go directly to the Father - Anybody heard of
Our Father Who art in heaven…

Honestly, and coming from a catholic, I have troubles in my heart about this. I rarely pray to the saints for intercession but rather pray to God in praise and thanksgiving. If there is something specific I still tend to go to the source, or to Jesus.

I don’t begrudge anyone asking the saints or Blessed Mother to intercede but to say that we cannot approach God the Father directly flies in the face of Jesus own words.

James

 

[Joyousguard]

Not all. Some fundamentalist have accused me of Mary-Goddess worship. I guess most Protestants don’t think so tho’. Like my mom, she just says I “pay too much attention to Mary”. Which is alot different than the Mary-Goddess worship thing.

The vast majority of Protestants I have come across have expressed this notion as well and it seems to be a very common theme among many of their contemporary works as well to say nothing of the average church go-er.

 

[ErikaA]

Honestly, most Protestants don’t want to take the time to learn about Catholicism because then they might have to question their own beliefs, or at least inspect them more closely.

There are those of us who want to know as much as possible about all sides. But there are many who take great comfort in disparaging another person’s faith because it makes them feel more confident in their own. This is true of Protestants and Catholics too I’m afraid.

 

[ErikaA]

let me apologize for that last post of mine. It was very self-serving and annoying. I am just as insecure as anyone else and guilty of the same offenses.

 

[Joyousguard]

I am surprised at some of the things I see on this board.
Jesus taught us to go directly to the Father - Anybody heard of
Our Father Who art in heaven…

Honestly, and coming from a catholic, I have troubles in my heart about this. I rarely pray to the saints for intercession but rather pray to God in praise and thanksgiving. If there is something specific I still tend to go to the source, or to Jesus.

I don’t begrudge anyone asking the saints or Blessed Mother to intercede but to say that we cannot approach God the Father directly flies in the face of Jesus own words.

James

However, it also makes mention in the Bible that Jesus should be the only mediator to God.

For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5:

Yet we pray to the Mother Mary? (rhetorical question for I think we all know the explanaition for this).

Again, look at the quotes from the CCC:

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Saints are given the powers of intercession. Does it really hurt to have as many people helping you as possible?

 

[Joyousguard]

let me apologize for that last post of mine. It was very self-serving and annoying. I am just as insecure as anyone else and guilty of the same offenses.

I wouldn’t worry about that too much. We all say or write things that have footnotes still left in our head. That is the nice thing about these forums… we can all make mistakes and easily fix them, even my posts which look like I had speel check created by a five year old.

Don’t worry, in God’s first draft of the ressurection and human salvation it was much more like the Matrix with lots of kung fu and bad acting. Thank God for rewrites and fixing mistakes.

 

[geekborj]

I think it’s true about the Bible. Nowadays, Catholics are hungry for Scripture and there are a lot of parish-based Scripture studies and other programs for reading the Bible. But it is certainly true that in my generation, although Scripture was taught in Catholic schools, individuals WERE discouraged from reading the Bible on their own – and the catastrophic results of individual reading and intepretation pretty much justified the caution!

That said, having begun my Christian walk in a Bible based denomination and then as an Episcopalian, I can honestly say that the people in the pew THOUGHT they knew the Bible a lot better than they really did. Even as a seminary graduate, I have learned much more Scripture on this side of the Tiber than I ever did as a Protestant.

To add:

1. It is a false generalization to say that Catholics don’t read the Bible. In fact, the Church encourages all the faithful to read the Bible. However, there is a strong caution not to interpret the Bible yourself. The Church has guarded the Bible from being mis-interpreted by anyone since it has to be interpreted in the context of the history of the Church (the Pope, church Fathers, with all the Faithful in communion with the Seat of Peter) itself.
2. What is more important however is not just “reading the Bible”. What is important is understanding the Message in the Bible. The Church has always emphasized that we should follow the Word of God and has to be extracted by Authority from the Bible along with her experience and Tradition.
3. Let us not judge each other and be proud of whoever better understands the true Message of God to all humanity. If you believe in the Communion of Saints, we must act as one Body asking for guidance to eternal salvation.
4. As for me, i believe in the Catholic Church and in her authority to explain and interpret the Bible so that I would understand the Bible better and in unity with the Body of Christ.

My conviction is “The Catholic Church have it right.” However, not all Catholics laypersons know it right. All you have to do is read and try to understand the point of Catholic Apologetics. Once you become biased against the person talking, you shut yourself of understanding their point. What is important is the idea.

Bless us.

–geekborj

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ all this misunderstandings about the bible is Jesus’ & the Apostles’ fault. If only they’ve been clearer on the more important subjects.

Jesus asked the apostles, “Who do you think I am?”. The apostles said “You are God”. And Jesus said, “You have spoken the truth but preach this not until the Son of God had returned to the Father”.

Jesus said, “Peter, you are the Rock. And upon you I will build my Church. And your supreme authority will be inherited by your successors”.

Book of Acts: “Mary was a virgin all her life until her assencion into to become the Queen of heaven. And the diciples never ceased praying to her for intercession”

If such things were written in the bible, Jesus’ prayer “May they be one” would have been a reality to this day. Sucks that God cant answer that prayer of Jesus. All because the apostles were too short sighted.

 

[Joyousguard]

^ all this misunderstandings about the bible is Jesus’ & the Apostles’ fault. If only they’ve been clearer on the more important subjects.

Jesus asked the apostles, “Who do you think I am?”. The apostles said “You are God”. And Jesus said, “You have spoken the truth but preach this not until the Son of God had returned to the Father”.

Jesus said, “Peter, you are the Rock. And upon you I will build my Church. And your supreme authority will be inherited by your successors”.

Book of Acts: “Mary was a virgin all her life until her assencion into to become the Queen of heaven. And the diciples never ceased praying to her for intercession”

If such things were written in the bible, Jesus’ prayer “May they be one” would have been a reality to this day. Sucks that God cant answer that prayer of Jesus. All because the apostles were too short sighted.

I’m not sure I quite follow you here. Please clarify:thumbsup:

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
It’s called “veneration”.
and its also called “Worship of Dulia”.**

Douleia (or prokenysis) is to be carefully distinguished from the LATREIA which alone can be given to God.

 

[mercygate]

** Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
It’s called “veneration”.
and its also called “Worship of Dulia”.**

Douleia (or prokenysis) is to be carefully distinguished from the LATREIA which alone can be given to God.

Except if it’s Catholics. The Orthodox can get away with this because, y’know, they’re practically Protestants – or at least they hate the Pope, so that’s just as good.

But CATHOLICS? Nope. Worship, worship WORSHIP!!! We worship Mary, statutes, saints. Same thing. All the same thing.

 

[Arnobius]

^ all this misunderstandings about the bible is Jesus’ & the Apostles’ fault. If only they’ve been clearer on the more important subjects.

Jesus asked the apostles, “Who do you think I am?”. The apostles said “You are God”. And Jesus said, “You have spoken the truth but preach this not until the Son of God had returned to the Father”.

Jesus said, “Peter, you are the Rock. And upon you I will build my Church. And your supreme authority will be inherited by your successors”.

Book of Acts: “Mary was a virgin all her life until her assencion into to become the Queen of heaven. And the diciples never ceased praying to her for intercession”

If such things were written in the bible, Jesus’ prayer “May they be one” would have been a reality to this day. Sucks that God cant answer that prayer of Jesus. All because the apostles were too short sighted.

How does that logically follow? What you are saying in effect that because God said “Thou shalt not kill” that there should be no murder any more."

The fact that Jesus expressed His will on this matter does not mean that people will not disobey His will.