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Pretty_Wings
Guest
I never said Church isn’t important.
Catholics have the fullness of truth. Protestants have part of the truth! What does this mean?
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Pretty_Wings
Guest
I think Catholics place more emphasize on church than Protestants. We(Protestants) believe in Church and rush to go to it every Sunday*(Saturday for some people)* but we don’t believe the Church is more important than God’s word, Because if you put a lot of emphasize on the Church, than you are placing emphasize on people, and people can lie, let you down and lead you down the wrong path. So from where I’m from we place emphasize on the Bible and on God than on Church itself.
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Pretty_Wings
Guest
This is where I’m confused at too, because if the Bible isn’t the only inspired word of God, than do we consider the Book of Mormon, do we consider the Jehovah Witnesses Bible, do we consider the Quran? I would think not but that is just my opinion. Where do you draw the line? I believe the Bible can answer all questions of faith.
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book” Revelation 22:18-19
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Bev17243
Guest
the Bible can definately asnwer a lot of questions but the trouble in Protestant church is noone can agree what the “truth” is. Baptists teach one thing, Pentecoastals another, Lutherans something else, etc. Remember the Thessalonians 2-2:14
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle
as you can see, he is talking about oral or written word, so can we discount traditions of the church? Furthermore, most Protestants(not refering to you) when they talk about “Scrupture” they refer to NT, when in reality when apostles refer to “Scripture”, they are actually refering to Old Testament since New Testament wasn’t written down yet. If you follow the Bible alone concept, you only have to use the Old Testament then, which makes no sense whatsover
I also wanted to add that if you place more importance on the Bible than you do Church, who is there to guide you? Take note of 2 Peter 1:20
“Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation”-he is saying that we are NOT supposed to interpret Scrupture any way we please. Here it is, said by Peter himself
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valentino
Guest
We Catholics say it"in the Church,not on church".THere is a difference.
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Michaelston
Guest
This blog post provides a good history of our churches and how the catholic church has the authority given to it from Christ.
devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/when-did-christ-revoke-his-churchs-authority/
devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/when-did-christ-revoke-his-churchs-authority/
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chaunceygardner
Guest
Well, if you consider that scripture at the time of Christ meant what we call the Old Testament, then there are a LOT of words said by Jesus that reference following the Word of God as found in those books. Almost everything Jesus says or does reflects something from a prophet or OT patriarch. I agree that Jesus did not say or even imply that scripture should be the only source of faith or authority, but he certainly based what he said and taught on it.
“We”, meaning most Christians, do NOT believe that writings other than the Bible are the “inspired Word of God.” Personally, however, I would have no problem with considering other non-biblical writings to be inspired by God, even writings of recent vintage. Some of the personal prayers and writings of Mother Theresa, for example. Even you or I could be inspired by God to write something like that. It wouldn’t be scripture, but it could fit into the category of “inspired”. One could claim that everything in the Bible is inspired by God, but not that everything that is inspired by God is in the Bible. To say otherwise would discount the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of many people over the centuries.
There has been a continuing argument over what works should be in the Bible. In the years when these writings were being gathered and sifted through, different church communities used and accepted as inspired different writings. Many church fathers did not consider the Book of Revelations to be worthy of being included in the New Testament. Later, Luther wanted to leave out Revelations and a few other books from the biblical canon. There are still differences between Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox as to what is accepted as biblical writing.
One should not use a microscope on every line of scripture, thinking that one must try to unravel the interpretation and meaning of every word. Rather, the important thing is to internalize, understand and live the overall message of the gospels, the core teaching of Jesus. Those can be life changing in themselves, but when combined with the events that we commemorate this Easter weekend, they become the key to the Realm of God.
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Robintrinket
Guest
The Church and the Bible are both important. The Bible and the Catholic Church teachings both come from God, and are not in conflict with each other.
God works through people. The Bible was written down by people, inspired by God. Of course, left alone, people can be misled, and that is why God needed to establish a Church to teach and protect it from teaching error.
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Robintrinket
Guest
I draw the line with Jesus and what He founded. He gave authority to His apostles, not the Mormons, Muslims, or Jehovah’s Witnesses. None of those religions even existed at the time of Jesus. Jesus founded the Catholic Church, starting with the apostles, and this Church put the Bible together and taught that it was inspired by God in the first place.
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Holly3278
Guest
This means that Catholics have all of the Truth that we as people need to know to attain salvation and to make God and ourselves happy both here in this life and in the next. Now, this is not to say that by being a Catholic, you will automatically be happy. Catholics have their fair share of sadness and difficulties just as much as any other religion does. Protestants do not have all of the Truth that we as people need to know.
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St_Francis
Guest
How does a person know he has the correct interpretation? My mentioning the words of Christ was to show the singleness of His Truth, His Way.
Yet there are several theories about baptism, all except one of which are claimed to have been arrived at in the exact method by which you operate. how can more than one be correct? How can you know which is correct? What makes your theory better than that of one of the other denominations?
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losh14
Guest
The trite answer is “Jesus is our Head, but someone has to sign the checks.”
It’s not the Pope so much as the local bishops who are, for the most part, the final authority locally on moral and theological questions where differences arise in Scriptural interpretation or the understanding of Tradition. It is unthinkable that a Catholic Bishop disagree with a central Scriptural truth - the Divinity of Jesus, the need for Baptism and Reconciliation, the Second Coming of Christ, etc - and the Bishop’s pastoral role includes correcting theological and moral errors within his community.
The Pope may come in guiding the Bishops, and often consults with the College of Cardinals in coming to a prayerful decision on tough matters, but the majority of pastoring comes down to the Bishop from whom the priests derive their pastoral authority within the diocese.
When we look at questions of ecclesial governance, we see that churches that developed during times of monarchy tend to be monarchic - the Catholics have a Pope as the Anglicans have the Archbishop of Canterbury as the Orthodox branches have Patriarchs. In reality, though, the Pope has very little involvement on a day-to-day level in the life of any given Catholic, and most governance in teh Catholic Church is by the local bishop or archbishop. It is rare for the Pope to step on the Bishops’s local authority. Instead, the Pope’s tasks are highly theological in nature - settling disputes, for example - as well as diplomatic and in the perspective of a moral leader. But the Sacraments are administered by priests (and the Bishop), and teaching is for the most part at this level as well.
Why do the bishops have such a role, rather than each Catholic deciding for him- or herself the interpretation of Scripture? Briefly, the Apostle urges (2 Cor 13:11):
“Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.”
Scripture is correct and inerrant. You believe this already, as do Catholics, and if there is any doubt you may find this reiterated in the Catechism, paragraph 107:
“The inspired books teach the truth. Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confined to the Sacred Scriptures.”
So when there is divergence of opinion on a matter of Scripture, the error resides in the interpreter. This becomes a human argument, not a Scriptural one, and the Bishop (or priest) has the role of settling this argument and correcting the one in error.
This difference is partly a result of our history, which witnessed much tragedy when Christian differences resulted in violence.
For much of humanity’s history, humanity was considerably more brutal than they are today. Today, if you pray on a Scriptural matter and come to a disagreement with your own pastor in your church, what happens? Perhaps you agree to disagree, perhaps you leave and find another church that’s more in accord with what you believe to be true.
In the Middle Ages, when medieval men with medieval mindsets in a medieval world made decisions, a peaceful answer was not always expected. Disagreements were often seen by local political (not religious) leaders as disobedience to the state and punished severely. During the Reformation, conversions were often accompanied by violence - on the hands of Reformers as well as Catholics.
Again, the Apostle writes:
“Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.”
Unity in thought is precursor to peace within the Church.
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losh14
Guest
Correct, you did not - I would gather from your responses that you’re part of a church that you chose because you found its beliefs and understanding of Scripture substantially similar to your own. You view dialogue with your pastor as being very important in forming your faith. Is that correct? This is not a trap, not at all. Again, I respect your faith and I appreciate your asking such honest questions here.
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losh14
Guest
Our differences are of degree, not of type. Certainly your pastor or elders are important in forming your faith, and their tasks require interpretation of Scripture, which at best is a human act guided by the Spirit, and at worst a human act guided only by human prejudices, but either way it remains a human act. Thank God for Mercy!
We often lead ourselves down the wrong path, whether honestly through ignorance or dishonestly through thinking that we somehow found a loophole or other exemption in God’s Mercy that somehow circumvents God’s Justice. I knew Christians in college who condemned my Catholic faith as an error but who held - very sincerely, as far as I could tell - to an understanding of Scripture that permitted them to commit all manner of excess in drinking, drug use, sex, etc. When I called out their vices as errors, they would cite - chapter and verse - where Scripture defends their salvation regardless of their behavior, or that their behavior was not sufficient to endanger their salvation.
I only offer this as an example, not an indict of your faith, and I only offer it to illustrate that perhaps relying upon the devoted and the prayerful may help us substantially in walking with Christ.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Protestants and or non-catholics appear to neglect the biblical teaching of who and what the Church is?
Catholics have always believed and taught that the Church Jesus founded is His body;
Colossians 1:15 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
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For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
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He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
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He is the head of the body, the church.
Acts. 9:4-5, Saul persecutes the first Christians whom Jesus reveals to be his body, Saul persecutes.
Catholics possess the fullness of Truth (1Timothy 3:15) because Jesus is Truth =John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus reveals that in the new covenant that is now here when the True worshippers of God will worship God in Spirit and Truth = John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
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God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."
The reason the Catholic Church is the fullness of Truth revealed by God, because in the Catholic Church we possess “all Truth” revealed sacramentally in the True presence of Jesus body and blood, for it is the Catholic Church in the Spirit of God who “comes to the Father” only Through Jesus presence body and blood.
No one can go to the Father without the True presence of Jesus body and blood in the Spirit. This the Catholic Church obeys Jesus commands to “Do this” in Her Mass celebration when “thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven”, who gives us our daily bread, and forgives our trespasses as we forgive others.
A symbolic Jesus does not exist, and the Spirit is a person not an emotion or enlightenment. From here only part of Truth exists never the fullness of Truth. This does not mean that Protestantism did not have the fullness of Truth when it was in full communion with the Catholic Church, Protestantism removed itself from the fullness of Truth by rejecting what God revealed in the Son to His Catholic Church these past 2000 years since the resurrection.
Peace be with you
Catholics have always believed and taught that the Church Jesus founded is His body;
Colossians 1:15 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16
For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18
He is the head of the body, the church.
Acts. 9:4-5, Saul persecutes the first Christians whom Jesus reveals to be his body, Saul persecutes.
Catholics possess the fullness of Truth (1Timothy 3:15) because Jesus is Truth =John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus reveals that in the new covenant that is now here when the True worshippers of God will worship God in Spirit and Truth = John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
24
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."
The reason the Catholic Church is the fullness of Truth revealed by God, because in the Catholic Church we possess “all Truth” revealed sacramentally in the True presence of Jesus body and blood, for it is the Catholic Church in the Spirit of God who “comes to the Father” only Through Jesus presence body and blood.
No one can go to the Father without the True presence of Jesus body and blood in the Spirit. This the Catholic Church obeys Jesus commands to “Do this” in Her Mass celebration when “thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven”, who gives us our daily bread, and forgives our trespasses as we forgive others.
A symbolic Jesus does not exist, and the Spirit is a person not an emotion or enlightenment. From here only part of Truth exists never the fullness of Truth. This does not mean that Protestantism did not have the fullness of Truth when it was in full communion with the Catholic Church, Protestantism removed itself from the fullness of Truth by rejecting what God revealed in the Son to His Catholic Church these past 2000 years since the resurrection.
Peace be with you
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losh14
Guest
A good question. Recall that the Apostles did not simply hand out Bibles, but rather pastored each flock and kept in correspondence with the churches they began. Here is where we find the line - no Scripture written after Christ’s life on Earth is valid unless it can be traced to Apostolic authorship. The potential for adding to the Canon of Scripture died with the Apostles - and this was the rule followed when questions of what constitutes the Bible was settled by the bishops of the Catholic Church in the 4th century.
For example, the Epistle to the Laodiceans, allegedly authored by Paul, was soundly rejected at Nicea. The Western Church agreed to accept Revelation (from whence you quoted) at Nicea but the Eastern Church took another century to agree.
I agree it can, ultimately, but the question is how humans can arrive at the correct answers. Certain questions arose in the centuries following the close of the Canon that were not answered without prayer, study and argument. For example, Muslims often point out that Jesus never uttered the words “I am God” and even dispute as figurative what you and I consider to be clear passages such as Jn 10:30, Jn 6:46, Jn 8:58. These same arguments that Muslims make today against our Lord were made in the 4th century by the Arians, whose view of Jesus as subordinate to the Father, rather than equal with, held sway among many.
The refutation of the Arian heresy was a key point at Nicea - and it was only settled by a declaration of faith, which was signed by the majority of the bishops in attendance, but notably not signed by 3 Arian bishops. This declaration is known today as the Nicene Creed. So you see, while the Bible answers all questions of faith, humans - the Church - needs to have a role in bringing those answers to fruition.
So you see, what the bishops of Nicea did was not to add to or take away from Scripture, but to augment and explain the understanding of Scripture in order to correct and rebuke. Of course, to the one who is not taking Scripture correctly, it certainly appears to be adding to or taking away from.
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Nicea325
Guest
Okay,but no offense,but I think your error is the belief that the church is somewhat less than the Word of God.How do separate the mysical body of Christ,the church from His Word? The Church is the “pillar and the ground of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). Equally important,the belief the Bible is “the” focal point or “the” authority is an unbiblical belief. Kindly show me where Jesus founded the Christian Bible before His Church? Did Jesus found the Bible over His Church?
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Pretty_Wings
Guest
Thank you for your honest answer, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I believe the things that will make God happy is believing in him and that his son Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day. Also living Holy. I think that is all God requires Faith, and living Holy. I know Catholics place big emphasize on works but if you are a True Christians of course works will follow. You will have a zeal to do anything for God.
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Pretty_Wings
Guest
By studying the word, and by the Holy Spirit. I don’t place emphasize on Baptism. I don’t think Protestants as a whole put big emphasize on Baptisms.(except for well Baptist) I don’t think that is the most important thing. I think it is important but whether a person get baptized as a baby or 5 or 20 years old is up to them. I think they should get baptized when they accept Jesus Christ as there savior. I believe baptism is a outward sign to show other people you have the faith but it doesn’t do anything for the inside of you. The only important thing is to believe in God and Jesus and to live a Holy life.
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Pretty_Wings
Guest
Okay, this is true I give you that, But who is too say one church is better than another? If the Pastors are all men of God and living clean Holy lives I don’t believe they are in the wrong. I think Jesus wanted us to spread the Good News and that is what they are doing.
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