Catholics in US overwhelmingly support homosexual unions [CWN]

[Ridgerunner]

No. It is primarily for property and inheritance purposes.

Did they abolish wills and trusts, then?

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is a much more Catholic country than this one, that is for sure.

I am not persuaded of that, and perhaps you can make a persuasive argument for it. If measured by how many have children and go to Mass regularly, the Catholic population of the U.S. is far more Catholic than is Spain. Nominal Catholicism alone does not a Catholic country make.

 

[CradleCath]

Except, of course, that we’re not making legal arguments here. This is a Catholic site and it’s perfectly proper to talk about morality here, even though a society dominated by secular relativistism, doesn’t want to give it any validity.

In a way, when one approaches such things from a relativist viewpoint, you really can’t make an argument that anything at all is perverse. I can’t remember who the supreme court justice was who declared that he couldn’t define pornography, for instance, he just knew it when he saw it.
That’s what one gets when one requires that morality have no place in public affairs. “What I think about it” rules as soon as a majority (sometimes even just a majority on a court) agrees on “What I think about it”, no matter what it is.

Inasmuch as Spain has a catastrophically low birth rate, it isn’t terribly surprising that Spaniards couldn’t see a connection between marriage and procreation. They’ll find out differently when, in a few decades, they are ruled by Sharia law, which they inevitably will.

You are so right. Watching Spain, once a strong Catholic country go down the tubes as they allowed corruption of Catholic morality…has been so sad.

SPAIN HAS LOST IT’S SOUL:
romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/07/spain_has_lost_.html

"Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, Prime Minister of Spain and Secretary General of the Socialist Party was elected in the wake of the Madrid bombings. Although Christian morality had been in decline prior to his election, since his election there has been a battle for the soul of the country.

The Spanish government has made divorce easier and faster, reduced the influence of the Church in education and allowed homosexuals to marry and adopt children. **Spain has even passed legislation banning the words “Mother” and “Father” in school and has also passed legislation to teach children from age of ten to accept homosexuality.**Spain has also legalized embryonic stem-cell research.

**Abortion rates have soared 72% over the past ten years.**Having crossed almost every conceivable moral boundary by force of law, now, anti-Semitism has become the new leftist trend in Spain.

Pray for the conversion of Spain."

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=rlg94086;7256008]I could care less what worked or didn’t work in Spain. We aren’t Spain. If the Spanish are unable to accept reality, that is their problem.

 

[larkin31]

I am not persuaded of that, and perhaps you can make a persuasive argument for it. If measured by how many have children and go to Mass regularly, the Catholic population of the U.S. is far more Catholic than is Spain. Nominal Catholicism alone does not a Catholic country make.

ha

I was comparing country to country, not country to minority-religious-subset of country. My in-laws are probably more Catholic in that sense than Spain OVERALL, but that is not a valid comparison, either.

but whatever

the US is under 25% Catholic. Is there some point you want to make about the US?

 

[larkin31]

Did they abolish wills and trusts, then?

I don’t see your point. Who are “they”? And when do you mean? (you use past tense for some event or time period, right?)

oh, as in, wills and trusts take care of this already? Well, ask the peasantry of medieval Europe how many of them had access to wills and trusts. Or most of the poor and nomadic persons of the last 5000 years or so. Ask how many of them had wills and trusts in their societies.

 

[Kearney]

Since the USA is a secular democracy, I hardly know how homosexuals can be prevented forever from begin civilly married by the states? If the US were a confessing Catholic nation then maybe their would be real indignation amongst some Catholics, but since it is not then what business do we RC’s, as a religious and cultural minority ourselves have in telling the government who they can and cannot marry?

After all the government marries people all the time in civil ceremonies which are not sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Should we Catholics be up in arms over that too?

Also, the title of this thread is misleading. Does this survey mean that the majority of US Catholics favor The Church approving of gay marriage, or that they just have no problem with the secular US government approving of it?

 

[rlg94086]

Since the USA is a secular democracy, I hardly know how homosexuals can be prevented forever from begin civilly married by the states? If the US were a confessing Catholic nation then maybe their would be real indignation amongst some Catholics, but since it is not then what business do we RC’s, as a religious and cultural minority ourselves have in telling the government who they can and cannot marry?

After all the government marries people all the time in civil ceremonies which are not sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Should we Catholics be up in arms over that too?

Also, the title of this thread is misleading. Does this survey mean that the majority of US Catholics favor The Church approving of gay marriage, or that they just have no problem with the secular US government approving of it?

Being secular has nothing to do with whether or not our society changes marriage to include two people of the same gender. First of all, it is a religion-neutral issue. Secondly, in a secular society people of all faiths get to decide, so there is nothing wrong with someone voting based on their faith-formed conscience.

 

[inocente]

Except, of course, that we’re not making legal arguments here.

Legal arguments might just have something to do with legalization, given the clue in the words.

This is a Catholic site and it’s perfectly proper to talk about morality here, even though a society dominated by secular relativistism, doesn’t want to give it any validity.

There’s a difference between relativism and replacing laws that are wrong.

They’ll find out differently when, in a few decades, they are ruled by Sharia law, which they inevitably will.

Slippery slope from legalizing same-sex union to Islamic fundamentalism? Given that the US spends more on arms than Europe, Russia and China combined, yet has less than 5% of the world population, forgive the rest of the world if it sometimes worries more about the rise of US fundamentalism.

 

[inocente]

If an act is immoral, but is supported by the populace does not make it moral. The nature of reality is not determined by the consensus, although Kant might claim otherwise.

Which may be the reason why in reality several countries have now replaced an immoral law.

 

[inocente]

I could care less what worked or didn’t work in Spain. We aren’t Spain. If the Spanish are unable to accept reality, that is their problem.

From my point of view that’s very heartening dude, since those who don’t learn lessons from any of the countries were opposition failed will inevitably fail again.

 

[StAnastasia]

From my point of view that’s very heartening dude, since those who don’t learn lessons from any of the countries were opposition failed will inevitably fail again.

Inocente, I wonder how many gay people in Spain remain Catholic. We should ask gay and lesbian people who are Catholic two questions:

(1) Why is your Catholicism belief so important to you that you remain in a homophobic church?

(2) Why is sexuality so important to you that you remain gay or lesbian while being a Catholic?

I will ask these questions of my gay friends among the parents at our Catholic school.

 

[rlg94086]

Inocente, I wonder how many gay people in Spain remain Catholic. We should ask gay and lesbian people who are Catholic two questions:

(1) Why is your Catholicism belief so important to you that you remain in a homophobic church?

(2) Why is sexuality so important to you that you remain gay or lesbian while being a Catholic?

I will ask these questions of my gay friends among the parents at our Catholic school.

Well, you just summed up the inanity of your stance on homosexuality. The Church is “homophobic?”

 

[rlg94086]

From my point of view that’s very heartening dude, since those who don’t learn lessons from any of the countries were opposition failed will inevitably fail again.

Yeah…advice from a Baptist in a socialist country turning further and further away from the Church really means a lot to Catholics in America. Thanks for all your “help.”

 

[inocente]

I wonder how many gay people in Spain remain Catholic. We should ask gay and lesbian people who are Catholic two questions:

(1) Why is your Catholicism belief so important to you that you remain in a homophobic church?

(2) Why is sexuality so important to you that you remain gay or lesbian while being a Catholic?

Interesting questions. Official surveys are done by the Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas. I’ve looked around their site, but either they don’t ask about sexual orientation or else don’t link it to religious belief.

In searching for other sources, I found gaycatholicforum.org/ and read a couple of linked articles that may go some way to providing an answer.

A Catholic Defense of Same Sex Marriage argues that the Vatican is out of step with theology and will eventually “correct” its view. I’m not a Catholic and can’t venture an opinion, so please will no one shoot the messenger.

Why go to church if you don’t do what the Pope says? argues that there are two sides to faith, and it’s perfectly possible to disagree with policies while remaining true to the belief. This sounds reasonable, although it’s not something I know much about as there’s no central hierarchy in my faith (if I don’t like what my pastor says, I tell him to change or I’ll find another ).

 

[inocente]

Yeah…advice from a Baptist in a socialist country turning further and further away from the Church really means a lot to Catholics in America. Thanks for all your “help.”

Not at all, my pleasure, no problem.

 

[CradleCath]

Well, you just summed up the inanity of your stance on homosexuality. The Church is "homophobic?"

Well, rlg, that word has been so OVERUSED that no one pays any attention to it, anymore. It has been the standard response to **anything **that may be viewed as criticism for those promoting the gay agenda for years. It’s definitely lost it’s sting.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Inocente, I wonder how many gay people in Spain remain Catholic. We should ask gay and lesbian people who are Catholic two questions:

(1) Why is your Catholicism belief so important to you that you remain in a homophobic church?

(2) Why is sexuality so important to you that you remain gay or lesbian while being a Catholic?

I will ask these questions of my gay friends among the parents at our Catholic school.

Those are very loaded questions to me. They would also be known in law as “leading” questions, designed to shape a particular response.

It seems to me, from the wording of question #1, that you yourself consider the Church to be “homophobic,” because you are the one constructing the question. So the responder, and any poster here or member of your own parish, might ask you, Is it your opinion that the Church is “homophobic”? Because if you have such a condemnatory view of the Church’s essential moral view, why do you remain Catholic?

In the secular arena, homophobia can mean many things: from failure to apply popular secular definitions of “gay rights” to God’s commandments, to personal prejudice, to outright persecution (hate, fear, rejection). But has been said often on this thread and many other CAF threads, the Church sees all God’s children who sincerely seek God’s friendship, as equal with all others, not to mention: so does God. We are all bound to the chastity appropriate to our station in life (meaning that straight singles who never marry are also prohibited from engaging in sex). Does that mean that the Church “hates” or “fears” single heterosexuals? Or does that mean that the Church requires moral compliance across the board, for each person’s station in life – not buying the secular propaganda that somehow sexual exceptions should be made for gays who are Catholics.
Does the fact that the Church honors God’s natural law in the gender complementarity of marriage mean that the Church should dispense with natural law, so that you, or your “gay friends among the parents at your Catholic school” will have a more favorable perception of the Church, as an institution which will bend its knowledge and its integrity for the pleasure of individual lifestyles?

It also seems to me that you could ask the same question of heterosexuals in the Church, if they want to cohabit and not marry, and feel they should be allowed to do so (or were refused an annulment and thus denied a new marriage). If such people also insist on remaining in the Church while being at odds with its morality, why do they do so?

As to your question #2, I don’t necessarily think that sexuality is more important to gays than to heterosexuals. We all have a sexuality. The question is, how comfortable are we with that sexuality in our church, since the Catholic Church is not up for change when it comes to fundamental morality. The entity doing the changing will not be the Church, so its members have to decide what they are going to do if they find themselves at odds with an immoveable object. It would be irrational to continue to wait for change when the institution has no motivation, let alone permission, to do so.

So the bottom line is, If any Catholic person finds himself at essential odds with the Catholic Church over core teachings, to the point of causing unhappiness & ongoing discomfort that cannot be ignored, why would you stay in the Church? It’s not just limited to sexual concerns, but to anything. Many such people say that they cannot adapt to the Church because it’s a matter for them of conviction and conscience. Well, if you’re so convicted, than it seems to me that your conscience is telling you to go elsewhere. And if your conscience is not powerfully convicted enough, then an internal or external struggle is occurring, and guaranteed you will not win that external struggle. If it’s an internal struggle (meaning you are not sufficiently persuaded by your own conviction, to leave), then eventually you will be surrendering whatever stands in the way of your adherence to Church teachings. It won’t be the other way around.

In the secular arena we have become used to a diversity of voices becoming legitimized in every possible media outlet, and populist opinion shaping institutional policy. But the Church is not the secular arena and is not bound by the same pressures. That’s why I tell my female friends who seriously cannot live with an all-male priesthood: If you are that convinced that you are right, that the Holy Spirit is with you and not the Church, then why make yourself unhappy by staying? There are things that I am slightly discomforted by in the Church, but they do not rise to such a serious level, and if they did, I would leave rather than be lukewarm or radically conflicted about the very religious community in which I worship.

Yes, I understand that for cradle Catholics especially, departure can be traumatic. But choose your trauma. If you make yourself and others more unhappy by staying, then you have to consider making a change: release your opposition, or release your community. If I were such a person (I’m not), I would probably join the Anglican/Episcopalian church, while continuing the same life-long private Catholic devotions I always have. That would include Benediction, the communion of Saints, and even attending Catholic Mass.

 

[Ridgerunner]

ha

I was comparing country to country, not country to minority-religious-subset of country. My in-laws are probably more Catholic in that sense than Spain OVERALL, but that is not a valid comparison, either.

but whatever

the US is under 25% Catholic. Is there some point you want to make about the US?

Not especially. I was simply suggesting that Spain is not all as Catholic as nominal affiliation might suggest.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=StAnastasia;7258502]Inocente, I wonder how many gay people in Spain remain Catholic. We should ask gay and lesbian people who are Catholic two questions:

(1) Why is your Catholicism belief so important to you that you remain in a homophobic church?

The better question is, If you TRULY believe that the Catholic Church is homophobic, why do you remain Catholic & why in the world would you send your child to a Catholic school. He/she will be taught the Church’s stance on homosexuality:

CCC. 2357
"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.** They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. **These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

(2) Why is sexuality so important to you that you remain gay or lesbian while being a Catholic?

That question shows a lack common sense. The Church has never asked anyone to change their sexual orientation. They ask that homosexuals practice chastity.

I will ask these questions of my gay friends among the parents at our Catholic school.

I doubt that.