Catholics in US overwhelmingly support homosexual unions [CWN]

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Given the secular nature of the US form of government and the firm wall of separation of church and state, at least from a legal point of view, it is difficult to plausibly defend differential treatment accorded to same sex marriages and gay civil unions.
 
Yet, you are asking that adoption agencies place children in less than the BEST!!! That is a terrible mistake. Because of the ease with which one can obtain an abortion today, there are not a whole lot of children, in this country, elligible for adoption. Why not give those who are the best chance they can have?
According to the article linked in #843, adoption agencies already place children with single parents and homosexuals, in some cases because the child has been turned down by married couples. In practice, the only alternative would be to keep the child in an institution.
 
inocente, I am well aware of the Pope’s latest release. I am also a scripture scholar, well acquainted with Protestant and Jewish scripture scholarship as well. The Catholic interpretation of scripture is holistic, as is her theology. The Pope does not mean “rights” in the casual, frankly sloppy, way that 21st century Americans with no legal background throw that term around reactively to apply to every personal goal imaginable. When he, and any Pope, talks and has talked about natural rights, the context is what is known in Catholicism as Natural Law. Just understand that it is not only Catholics who have adopted natural law as a guiding philosophy. From time to time it can be found in various Western documents, especially legal ones.

I cannot give you an adequate course in the foundations of Catholic theology and philosophy on a discussion board intended for hundreds of other contributors as well. If you want to truly understand the basis for her positions on anything, there’s a ton of reading out there. Much of it pops up on the right and left hand navigations windows when you visit this forum. It’s especially, as you can see, important to understand the terminology, because without a context for the terms, it is easy to misinterpret.

If I wanted to really understand why Religion X had a particular stand on a modern issue, I would not only do some essential reading on what makes the religion tick, so to speak, I would “hang out” on communication venues where a lot of them hang out. Thus, I understand why you’re hanging out on CAF to get an answer to this, but sometimes a very effiicent way to p(name removed by moderator)oint an area of confusion is to listen to something more active. The subject comes up frequently on EWTN radio. I don’t know where you’re located or if you have a local feed, but the EWTN website might have a list of those feeds, and if you have no local feed, there are podcasts of shows. Catholic Answers Live, hosted by Patrick Coffin, often discusses contemporary issues such as this one. It’s a call-in show but he has always has guests, some of them on the staff of ewtn, others from the broader Catholic community. Also Colin Donovan has a weekly (Friday) shows which broadcasts at 3 p.m. Eastern. He’s the VP for moral theolgy at EWTN, and he is particularly good at laying the logical foundation for answers to moral questions callers raise. I’m not trying to blow you off; I’m suggesting that it’s sometimes easier to identify the reasoning behind these issues in a brief format. Typically a caller will ask, “How do I answer my sister-in-law who is telling her kids that gays should have the ‘right’ to marry”?

The short answer is that the secular world considers the expression of homosexuality to be equal with heterosexuality. That is directly opposed to the Catholic view, which assumes not just the biblical proscription against it (OT and NT and specifically, btw, the Judaism which Jesus subscribed to, which forbade the expression of it), but more positively the affirmation of complementarity in man + woman, their union with each other being an image of God’s very love and an affirmation of his creation and the order of his creation, which we are bound to revere in action, not just in thought & prayer. Thus, the Church accepts that union of man + woman is sacred and ordered to the continuance of God’s creation, whereas the union of man + man or woman + woman contradicts that and offends that and is a sacrilege against that. And that view is absolute, not relative or subject to change with changing fads and secular philosophies and politics and the manipulation of reality, let alone anatomy.

Note that Benedict XVI makes reference to that here:
Fidelity to God’s word leads us to point out that nowadays this institution [the sacrament of marriage] is in many ways under attack from the current mentality.In the face of widespread confusion in the sphere of affectivity, and ***the rise of ways of thinking which trivialize the human body and sexual differentiation, the word of God re-affirms the original goodness of the human being, created as man and woman ***and called to a love which is faithful, reciprocal and fruitful.
Part 2 of the short answer is that love of neighbor includes correction of neighbor and, when not correctable, refusal to approve of neighbor’s errant ways, and refusal to subvert the divine order of creation I made reference to. For Catholics to support gay marriage in word or deed is to contribute to the subversion of the divine order, which is considered a grave offense against God, much more serious than any ‘un-neighborly’ politely refusing to attend the gay marriage of an acquaintance, for example, or not supporting a ballot measure to approve of it in a particular state. Be careful of taking Jesus’ words out of context. Notice he never said, “Love your neighbor even when it means opposing the fundamental underpinnings of Torah, universally applied to all Jews.” Love is not moral permission for immoral acts. He never said or implied that it was. He said that on a case by case basis, technical regulations regarding Shabbat, for example, should be overriden by a neighbor’s timely need which could not wait, nor should, for the sun to set.
 
inocente, I just saw that you are in Spain. Perhaps you can listen to EWTN live over the internet for some of those programs. Failing that, there would be downloadable recorded versions of those probably. Patrick Coffin is good about announcing ahead a special guest, but frequent guests (regulars) on his program include people who have a background in Catholic apologetics.

A poster asked above about the wall of separation. That just refers to an institutional wall, not a personal wall. Many atheists regularly apply a personal morality to their voting decisions and their (personal) lobbying or influence efforts. As Americans we are not required or enjoined to suspend our consciences when we vote and otherwise participate civilly. I know that conscientious Jews use a very Jewish ethic to guide their voting and their civil participation. Etc.
 
Two of my close lesbian friends adopted a girl from China. She is now flourishing in a loving home environment, rather than languishing in a Chinese orphanage.
You know what? All of your personal antidotes about your Lesbian & gay friends don’t mean a thing to me. Placing a child in a home with Lesbians for parents is not giving them the BEST. I have worked as a volunteer with Right to Life for many years. While I don’t do the important work…mostly just answer phones & sort mail…I know those who do.
I have seen young women, who have chosen to carry a baby for 9 months, go through the birth & then give their baby up for adoption. THAT IS NOT EASY & RTL. works **very hard **to place them in a home that’s worthy of the pain that the Mother went through in giving them up that they might have a better life.

I have no idea what the Chinese require from adoptive parents, but those of you who are calling for gay adoption because it’s “no worse” than children being raised in a one parent home, it’s “no worse” than being raised in a home where the Mother doesn’t even know who the Father is, it’s “no worse” than having parents who are drug addicts & who would sell that baby for their next fix…are not considering what is BEST for the child. Not what will “do”, but what is **BEST. **
 
^ correct. Laws are based on both optimums, and on reducing or eliminating harm to the best of possible circumstances. Neither a moral standard nor a legal standard can be reduced to something which is almost as bad, sort of bad, not ideal, or no-worse-than-the next person’s idea of barely acceptable, barely legal.

But you meant ‘anecdotes,’ CradelCath, not ‘antidotes.’ The former are random personal stories that cannot be generalized with any accuracy; the latter are remedies against toxins.
🙂
 
^ correct. Laws are based on both optimums, and on reducing or eliminating harm to the best of possible circumstances. Neither a moral standard nor a legal standard can be reduced to something which is almost as bad, sort of bad, not ideal, or no-worse-than-the next person’s idea of barely acceptable, barely legal.

But you meant ‘anecdotes,’ CradelCath, not ‘antidotes.’ The former are random personal stories that cannot be generalized with any accuracy; the latter are remedies against toxins.
🙂
Yes, I did. However, considering the toxic quality of some of these posts, maybe it was a Freudian Slip. :whacky:.
 
Remember everyone '=
We are dealing with liberalized Christians being controlled and mass converted into coming out of the TV 90% of which is produced a large network of people that have taken the US media over from former Jewish orthodox strong holds Know their religion it is a syncretistic version of Kabbalah/Neo Paganism mixed with a variety of beliefs of the eastern mystery religions

Know that all of biblical Christianity believes and knows that the Sacred scriptures are inerrant inspired Word Of God therefore to shine the Light into the dark corners for Our Lord

We have to as Catholics BEGIN MEMORIZING SCRIPTURES
Which scripture of God’s word tells why Abortion is against God’s law ?! Jer 1:4-5
What does God say that gay sex is It’s creation of an Idol akin to a molded image of a bird or a creature and practicing it is worshiping IT - tell them that USE THE TRUTH

Romans 1:24-26 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.
 
The short answer is that the secular world considers the expression of homosexuality to be equal with heterosexuality.
I challenge this assertion. “Equality” in both these forms of relationships is only sought legally by some (only by some, and not by all of the “secular world”), and morally this also is only thought of by some and certainly not by *all of the secular world. * Apparently even a fair portion of Catholics want some equality under the law established for gay couples. So your stark division on this topic by secular/religious division roughs over all the actual complexity and ambivalence within these actual groups.
 
I challenge this assertion. “Equality” in both these forms of relationships is only sought legally by some (only by some, and not by all of the “secular world”), and morally this also is only thought of by some and certainly not by *all of the secular world. * Apparently even a fair portion of Catholics want some equality under the law established for gay couples. So your stark division on this topic by secular/religious division roughs over all the actual complexity and ambivalence within these actual groups.
“a fair portion of Catholics” want what? Gays don’t want “some equality.”

Just listen to Ellen Degeneres and John McCain:

youtube.com/watch?v=A7addd1-SY8

Peace,
Ed
 
I a local high-school there was gay and lesbian pride day. A few student wear a T-shirt with the script ‘Straight-pride’ on the front and ‘Lev 20:13’ on the back.

The gay community protested, the judge uphold their right.

Imho this is the way: set your values and stand up for your values. This means also to vote for candidates who share your values, but all the spectrum have to be taken accounted, and if there is no proper candidate submit an empty ballot.
 
Given the secular nature of the US form of government and the firm wall of separation of church and state, at least from a legal point of view, it is difficult to plausibly defend differential treatment accorded to same sex marriages and gay civil unions.
What does the separation between Church and State have to do with the differences between “same sex marriages and gay civil unions?”

Btw…that is a rhetorical question, as I know the answer is “nothing.” 🙂
 
I cannot give you an adequate course in the foundations of Catholic theology and philosophy on a discussion board intended for hundreds of other contributors as well.
Elizabeth – thanks for that kind and thoughtful post. I found EWTN and have been listening in - a variety of languages and services are available here.

The Vatican produced a document giving the case against same-sex union back in 2003, and it should possibly be required reading for Catholics debating the issue here.

A number of arguments are used, but for me none of them is convincing in itself. For example, natural law systems reach different conclusions about morality depending on the initial choice of a catalog of goods. The document is centered on positive complementarity arguments from scripture, e.g. Gen 1:27. One issue for me is that the difference between civil union and the sacrament of marriage is not spelled-out. There are already big problems in many societies with heterosexual civil unions being so convenient to arrange and dissolve, little more than drive-thru. In practice civil unions bear only a passing resemblance to the sacrament of marriage and are devalued not by increasing the scope but by being too easy across the board. To me revaluing the whole business of civil union should take prime importance given that it has far more effect on most people’s lives and on the direction of society.

That said, you’re right about EWTN. I’m probably watching an old repeat on the US feed at the moment (its 10:00 here, 04:00 Eastern) but just learned more about the Catholic view of person-hood in thirty minutes than six months on CAF. 🙂 There are deep convictions at stake here that go well beyond the subject of this thread and so I’ll retire until getting my head round the differences. Thanks for your help.
 
Civil laws and God’s laws, long before the concept of the United States was ever designed by men, were largely opposed to one another from the beginning of Judao-Christian salvation history.

As civil rights using “the vote” to assist fallen creation cries out…“the flesh …the flesh has rights too.” We need to turn to scriptures for the answers to God’s laws.

AND THE CROWD CRIED OUT IN UNISON “RELEASE BARABBAS” !
 
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