Catholics. Is Salvation Easy Or Complicated?

[poetryforjesus]

Salvation is incredibly simple but it is seldom easy. The recipe for salvation is love. Love of God and love of neighbor. Love is not instinctual, rather is is a determined act of the will. That is why making a proclamation that assures “a ticket” to salvation is contrary to the Good News.

In 1Corinthians, St Paul makes a teaches a beautiful lesson on love when he says, Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.
2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing.
3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.
4 Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited,
5 it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances.
6 Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth.

God is love. And if we have life in Him and He in us, we must be that love too. There is no other way. The Pope, Mary, Saints, Church are conduits of God’s grace and mercy that we may love as Jesus loves. Try not to be so hardhearted. God loves us all and through Him all things are possible…even salvation for you and me.

Continuing in the spirit of your post, this question should replace the original question of the OP: is love easy or complicated?

I completely agree with you that love is the key to salvation. We are saved by Christ’s love. We are saved by being transformed into Christ’s love. If we love, we will be saved.

Is love easy or complicated?

It sure is easy, for everyone knows how to love, even an infant.

It sure is hard, because it takes everything you’ve got. Just look how much it cost Jesus Christ!

 

[choy]

salvation is easy

people are just hardheaded

 

[Sword_Brethren]

And if we extend that GRACE a little we will not fail to realise that God can save people who do not even know who is the Pope nor who are the Catholics. Who are you then to extend His grace to within your preferred boundaries only to limit it where you don’t deem fit???

What cyberwolf was trying to say is that the catholics make Salvation uncertain and complex…reverting basically EVERYTHING back into the hands of the clergymen…even then there is no absolute guarantee.

BUT…what does the Scripture tell us?..It tells us CLEARLY that there IS A Guarantee of INHERITANCE…

Ephesians 1: 11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And if one reads further, one will know that the Holy Spirit is the Counselor, who according to Jesus will teach the believer unto ALL things. Such a believer will be guided personally by God’s Spirit. There is NO room for even a human teacher nor a priest nor a bishop nor a pope.

So, you think the Holy Ghost is guiding you? Jim Jones, David Koresh, Arius, A. White, Luther, Calvin, Thomas Munzter , and Jim Baker thought the same.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Good, BUT…if you have not obviously noticed, in your quote, there is no room space for the Pope nor the Vatican…its all just YOU.

And you’ve proven my point to be true.

.

Wrong again. The Lord Jesus Christ said, “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”

Matthew 16:18

 

[Texan77]

Catholics. Is Salvation Easy Or Complicated?.

Throughout the history of man kind - men have complicated this issue in regards to our own salvation. Even though we believe in and worship God we often live life in sin.

Jesus Christ gave us not only the Church but seven sacraments which makes us holy and pleasing to God - yet many Catholics today do not partake in these things.

In regards to the question above - I can only assume that our salvation would be easy or more attainable if we practiced our faith and the teachings of the Catholic Church and when we fall into mortal sin that we would repent and confess as we receive the sacrament of reconciliation…

Yet for those Catholics that do not follow the teachings of the Church salvation for them will be complicated indeed…

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Reading the above, one understands clearly that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Ghost given upon** Repentance + Baptism in the name of Jesus.**

Yes one might understand the verse above as you stated but we must note that Peter is talking directly to adult converts (Jews) and for adults even today we do indeed repent before our baptism through the sacrament of reconciliation…

We have other examples throughout the NT that entire families were baptized…

Meaning, ANYONE (eg. living alone, in desert, in mountain tops, jungles etc) ONLY needs to Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus, and he/she will be saved upon receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Period.

I guess I do not understand the statement above - I agree that everyone needs the sacrament of baptism - and when in mortal sin the sacrament of reconciliation but we cannot forget the other 5 sacraments …

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???

In short throughout our Salvation History…

PS. By following Acts 2:38, it seems I don’t even need to know where is the Vatican. Or does someone/some people out there want to tell us that Peter did not complete his sentence or perhaps had said the wrong thing?

Jesus Christ did not find the Catholic Church on Vatican Hill - after findind the Catholic Church on Peter the rock - first Pope. The Apostles for a while still met in the Jewish temples - but through the destruction of Jerusalem the apostles found safe haven within the Roman Law system but as history turns out that even turned quite bloody for the new christians. Vatican Hill came later as the epicenter of Christianity and for a while one Pope fled to France and at a later date came back the Vatican after some conversations with one particular nun…Forgot her name…

 

[Timothy_Piper]

So, you think the Holy Ghost is guiding you? Jim Jones, David Koresh, Arius, A. White, Luther, Calvin, Thomas Munzter , and Jim Baker thought the same.

Even though the bible does not teach salvation by water, at least he does present an argument and uses the Word of God to present his argument. If he is trying to be faithful to the Word and not guided by the holy Spirit as you say, then you without any argument are being guided by what or whom?

 

[Carlan]

This is a very good thread and I think this one is the best answer.

Anyone who thinks they have a guaruntee of inheritance and yet does not love God and his neighbor deceives themselves. What we inherit from God is not something outside of us; it is the beauty and glory of our soul, which can only be realized by conforming ourselves to the likeness of Christ. We will be saved to the extent of how much we resemble Christ. The more we resemble Him, the more glory we will have in heaven.

It is so easy to turn christianity into a contract–say such and such, do such and such, and you will be saved. No, salvation is about the Living Water of Christ’s love. Those who love God and love their neighbor do not worry about their salvation. Those who want an absolute guaruntee from God do not have in their heart a pure love for God and a true understanding of life.

If you want a guaruntee, you are not looking for God; you are only looking for an assurance to satisfy your own anxieties. Those who have found God need no guaruntee. They simply love and trust.

You said it Poet, believe love and trust. Blessed peace, thank you Lord!

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Even though the bible does not teach salvation by water, at least he does present an argument and uses the Word of God to present his argument. If he is trying to be faithful to the Word and not guided by the holy Spirit as you say, then you without any argument are being guided by what or whom?

I don’t claim to be guided by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not teach error.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I don’t claim to be guided by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not teach error.

Good answer. Any ideas what the implications of the statement you made above are in relation to Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???

Let’s start with Church. the Catholics believe that Church comes into the picture when Jesus said to Peter “upon this Rock, I will build my Church”. When do you think “church” comes into the picture?

The Apostles taught that, when we become members of Him in baptism, we are all made members of one another in His mystical body, the Church.

PS. By following Acts 2:38, it seems I don’t even need to know where is the Vatican. Or does someone/some people out there want to tell us that Peter did not complete his sentence or perhaps had said the wrong thing?

.

Catholics do not derive theology by “following” one verse or even a collection of verses. The Catholic faith was delivered to the Church by the Apostles, and was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. We are not a “bible based” Church in the sense that our faith is extrapolated from the scriptures 1600 years after the facts. Our Church is based upon Christ, the cornerstone. It was that Church that produced the NT, which reflects what we believe, but is not the Source of it, Jesus is the Source.

Here is where the Teaching Authority appointed by Christ comes in:

Act 2:42 And they kept their attention fixed on the Apostles’ teaching and were united together in the taking of broken bread and in prayer.

After baptism, the baby believer enters a period of learning about the faith. These elements are what are known as Sacred Tradition, the prayers, the liturgy, the Teachings (Way of Life) of the Apostles. This is the Word of God being lived out and through the Church.

 

[guanophore]

What cyberwolf was trying to say is that the catholics make Salvation uncertain and complex…reverting basically EVERYTHING back into the hands of the clergymen…even then there is no absolute guarantee.

Are you in agreement with this? Is this the purpose of this thread?

BUT…what does the Scripture tell us?..It tells us CLEARLY that there IS A Guarantee of INHERITANCE…

Ephesians 1: 11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And if one reads further, one will know that the Holy Spirit is the Counselor, who according to Jesus will teach the believer unto ALL things. Such a believer will be guided personally by God’s Spirit. There is NO room for even a human teacher nor a priest nor a bishop nor a pope.

the HS does not lead individuals in a different direction than He has already led the Church.

The promise to be led into all Truth was given to the Church. IT does not apply to those who have left the Church, or deliberately separate themselves from her.

I find it quite amazing to read that you believe there is no room for any human teachers. I don’t see how you can justifiy such a statement scripturally.

 

[guanophore]

Good, BUT…if you have not obviously noticed, in your quote, there is no room space for the Pope nor the Vatican…its all just YOU.

And you’ve proven my point to be true.

.

No, Mo, what YOU have not noticed is that Catholics do not read scripture in isolation from what the HS has already revealed to the Church. Catholics also accept the Apostolic authority,a nd the succession appointed by them over us:

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

It is to our spiritual advantage to submit to those who are in authority over us.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

No, Mo, what YOU have not noticed is that Catholics do not read scripture in isolation from what the HS has already revealed to the Church. Catholics also accept the Apostolic authority,a nd the succession appointed by them over us:

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

It is to our spiritual advantage to submit to those who are in authority over us.

The Scripture also says not to follow them blindly. How can you do that if you don’t know what the truth is nor the qualifications and how they relate to true teachers versus false teachers?

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin,** rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. **22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

God is serious about the qualifications of these pastor-teachers and the ones worthy of double reward are those who “work hard at preaching and teaching” what? The Scripture.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

The Scripture also says not to follow them blindly. How can you do that if you don’t know what the truth is nor the qualifications and how they relate to true teachers versus false teachers?

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin,** rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. **22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

God is serious about the qualifications of these pastor-teachers and the ones worthy of double reward are those who “work hard at preaching and teaching” what? The Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the **tradition **which they have received of us.”

Mathew 16:18-19

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

The successor of St. Peter is only in the Catholic Church.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

2 Thessalonians 3:6

“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the **tradition **which they have received of us.”

Mathew 16:18-19

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

The successor of St. Peter is only in the Catholic Church.

What about the rest of the Apostles that received the key to the Kingdom of God (AKA: Heaven)? Was Peter the only Apostle? Don’t you think you are stretching that passage quite a bit and perhaps out of context altogether?

 

[guanophore]

The Scripture also says not to follow them blindly. How can you do that if you don’t know what the truth is nor the qualifications and how they relate to true teachers versus false teachers?

Absolutely.

The Church teaches that Catholics ought to read, pray, study and share the scriptures daily. Many Catholics have been misled by the failure to show themselves approved unto God through study.

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin,** rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. **22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

God is serious about the qualifications of these pastor-teachers and the ones worthy of double reward are those who “work hard at preaching and teaching” what? The Scripture.

The Gospel, would we not be in agreement on this point?

 

[peary1]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Reading the above, one understands clearly that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Ghost given upon** Repentance + Baptism in the name of Jesus.**

Meaning, ANYONE (eg. living alone, in desert, in mountain tops, jungles etc) ONLY needs to Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus, and he/she will be saved upon receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Period.

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???

PS. By following Acts 2:38, it seems I don’t even need to know where is the Vatican. Or does someone/some people out there want to tell us that Peter did not complete his sentence or perhaps had said the wrong thing?

.

You have to be an integral part of Christ’s Church. That is what this is all about. You can’t repent, accept Christ as your personal Savior and ignore the Body of Christ by going your own merry way. It doesn’t work that way. When you read the Scriptures divorced from the Church you fall into serious error. You need to read the Scriptures through the eyes of Christ’s Church. Then your understanding will be complete.

 

[Mosacked]

You have to be an integral part of Christ’s Church. That is what this is all about. You can’t repent, accept Christ as your personal Savior and ignore the Body of Christ by going your own merry way. It doesn’t work that way. When you read the Scriptures divorced from the Church you fall into serious error. You need to read the Scriptures through the eyes of Christ’s Church. Then your understanding will be complete.

What is so difficult about Acts 2:38, that you need the catholic clergy to tell you what it says???

Can you read what I had typed here or do you need someone from your clergy to tell you what I tell you?

There’s nothing in Acts 2:38 that says…AND…you must…AND…+++.

Its short and sharp and to the point. - Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

Note it says YOU. It didn’t say your religious institution.

Let’s just remember the curse in the book of Revelation that says that those who ADD to the holy scripture (bible) shall be accursed.

.

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[zerinus]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Reading the above, one understands clearly that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Ghost given upon** Repentance + Baptism in the name of Jesus.**

Meaning, ANYONE (eg. living alone, in desert, in mountain tops, jungles etc) ONLY needs to Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus, and he/she will be saved upon receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Period.

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???

PS. By following Acts 2:38, it seems I don’t even need to know where is the Vatican. Or does someone/some people out there want to tell us that Peter did not complete his sentence or perhaps had said the wrong thing?

.

That depends on what you understand by repentance. Repentance is more than just saying “sorry”. To repent means to stop doing what is wrong, and start doing what is right. Doing what is right means doing what God wants you to do; it means keeping God’s commandments. And if one of God’s commandments is to become a member of His Church, and do what that Church tells you to do, then that is part of your “repentance,” and that is what you need to do.

According to your own quote, salvation is through repentance and baptism, not just repentance by itself—and baptism is the process by which you become a member of God’s true Church. That is another way of saying that salvation is through repentance and joining God’s true Church. Joining God’s true Church carries responsibilities. It involves doing what that Church tells you to do.

 

[Mosacked]

That depends on what you understand by repentance. Repentance is more than just saying “sorry”. To repent means to stop doing what is wrong, and start doing what is right. Doing what is right means doing what God wants you to do; it means keeping God’s commandments. And if one of God’s commandments is to become a member of His Church, and do what that Church tells you to do, then that is part of your “repentance,” and that is what you need to do.

According to your own quote, salvation is through repentance and baptism, not just repentance by itself—and baptism is the process by which you become a member of God’s true Church. That is another way of saying that salvation is through repentance and joining God’s true Church. Joining God’s true Church carries responsibilities. It involves doing what that Church tells you to do.

Its not my OWN quote, its the Bible’s quote. And there is no another way of saying Acts 2:38 unless you claim to have authority to re-write what has already been written.

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