Catholics, is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[MichaelP3]

To be fair, most protestants are blissfully unaware of what protestants actually believe, too. It doesn’t help that there are about 30,000 different varieties of protestant, each with its own doctrine in various states of articulation and rigidity. You add in the my-interpretation-of-sola-scriptura and continual personal revelation aspects, and it’s impossible for ANYONE to know what protestants actually believe.

Non mainline Protestantism is the Occupy Wallstreet of religion. Most of them have no clue why they’re there, but they feel strongly about it and want to yell and demand you listen.

In qualification, I’ll admit that I used to be protestant, I’ve been several denominations of mainline and non mainline, evangelical, full gospel, non-denominational, and Pentecostal. I know of which I speak.

I’ve seen this 30 000 figure before. Actually on a Vortex the first time. Not really sure where it came from? I normally wonder how many Salvation differences are there apart from the “we should stand or sit during this” kind of things? Actually, what would be an essential “Protestant Dogma” if we think of this a Catholic way? Would something like believing in Sola Scriptura be considered a Dogma in some way?

On the non-mainline ones. Well yea, I will admit there are a few, but its Catholics who add them to us. Am I really that much alike to the Spaghetti Monster worshipers in New Zealand (They actually exist)?

On your last paragraph. Well my wife used to be very conservative Catholic. Would you say her opinions about Catholicism is noteworthy now that she is Protestant?

Regards

 

[Padres1969]

When I was Protestant I knew much more about the Catholic faith than most Catholics I came into conversation with.

Generally speaking my experience as well. While some Protestants I’ve come across have incorrect interpretations of what Catholic teaching is, I frankly find in general Protestants I’ve met in person know at least as much about Catholicism and its teachings as the Catholics I come in contact with. Usually more than the Catholics I know.

Mind you most of those are cradle Catholics. Which shouldn’t surprise me, I mean it’s a well known issue that a large number of native born Americans would fail the US Citizenship test. It’s a similar concept I expect with cradle Catholics and ignorance of Catholic teaching.

 

[GKC]

I’ve seen this 30 000 figure before. Actually on a Vortex the first time. Not really sure where it came from? I normally wonder how many Salvation differences are there apart from the “we should stand or sit during this” kind of things? Actually, what would be an essential “Protestant Dogma” if we think of this a Catholic way? Would something like believing in Sola Scriptura be considered a Dogma in some way?

On the non-mainline ones. Well yea, I will admit there are a few, but its Catholics who add them to us. Am I really that much alike to the Spaghetti Monster worshipers in New Zealand (They actually exist)?

On your last paragraph. Well my wife used to be very conservative Catholic. Would you say her opinions about Catholicism is noteworthy now that she is Protestant?

Regards

The origin and genealogy of the 30,000 figure has been discussed on the board a number of times. I used to do it too. I don’t anymore.

The search function might give some info

 

[MichaelP3]

The origin and genealogy of the 30,000 figure has been discussed on the board a number of times. I used to do it too. I don’t anymore.

The search function might give some info

Would you say it had a conclusive verdict?

 

[lanman87]

I’ve seen this 30 000 figure before. Actually on a Vortex the first time. Not really sure where it came from? I normally wonder how many Salvation differences are there apart from the “we should stand or sit during this” kind of things? Actually, what would be an essential “Protestant Dogma” if we think of this a Catholic way? Would something like believing in Sola Scriptura be considered a Dogma in some way?

On the non-mainline ones. Well yea, I will admit there are a few, but its Catholics who add them to us. Am I really that much alike to the Spaghetti Monster worshipers in New Zealand (They actually exist)?

On your last paragraph. Well my wife used to be very conservative Catholic. Would you say her opinions about Catholicism is noteworthy now that she is Protestant?

Regards

Here is an article on the 33,000 denominations.

I think the number is way overblown. I live in a city of about 25,000 in the Bible belt and we have maybe 10 different protestant denominations represented. The biggest city in our region has maybe 20.

 

[Padres1969]

Here is an article on the 33,000 denominations.

I think the number is way overblown. I live in a city of about 25,000 in the Bible belt and we have maybe 10 different protestant denominations represented. The biggest city in our region has maybe 20.

Not to derail this thread into this discussion… again. But I think that 33,000 number includes more than just real denominations but rather a bunch of non-denominational churches.

 

[MichaelP3]

Not to derail this thread into this discussion… again. But I think that 33,000 number includes more than just real denominations but rather a bunch of non-denominational churches.

I would think quite a lot. Even the one down the street from me in Mr P’s house every Sunday.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Not to derail this thread into this discussion… again. But I think that 33,000 number includes more than just real denominations but rather a bunch of non-denominational churches.

The 33,000 number is a -bit- of a misrepresentation. It breaks down several of the larger denominations (including the Catholic Church) by geographic region (i.e, by continent). This is partially incorrect because a change in region doesn’t necessarily result in a change in beliefs. With the Catholic Church, the beliefs are the same across the whole world, as is the case with a handful of Protestant denominations.

However, it also can’t be said to be incorrect in all cases because with several Protestant denominations, beliefs can shift from community to community. The so called “core beliefs” may remain constant, but other “non-essential” beliefs are subject to change. The problem is that what constitutes “core beliefs” in these cases is not constant, so it’s hard to really determine if there’s been a split or not.

The number does take into account several variations of non-denominational Christian, though not all of them. This is completely appropriate because one non-denominational community could hold beliefs that are wildly different and incongruous with another.

In reality, the number if probably closer to 20 or 25 thousand, but that doesn’t really dull the point we’re making. Heck, even the lowest estimate I’ve heard, hovering around the 10,000 mark, is enough to make that case that a lack of central authority is a problem.

 

[Brassring]

Not to derail this thread into this discussion… again. But I think that 33,000 number includes more than just real denominations but rather a bunch of non-denominational churches.

It almost certainly includes all the unaffiliated, single congregation groups, as well as the malcontents who can’t find something they like in any established denomination and just form a meeting in their home for three or four friends.

But, this doesn’t refute my point. It demonstrates it. It demonstrates the nature of Protestantism. In Protestantism, simple disagreements about doctrine or practice are reason enough to abandon a church and find a new one, especially since there is no authority or hierarchy. If the Bible is your only authority, one teacher is as good as another. Better even, if this teacher is saying what I want to hear. This elevation of personal understanding and preference is what has led to the plethora of denominations and unaffiliated congregations. If you can’t find a pastor or teacher who is preaching what you like or understand, you can just stay home and read the Bible for yourself.

If the only reason I had to go to church was to listen to someone’s opinion and half-formed exegesis, I’d probably stay home, too. When I was protestant, I did. The homily is nice, but I don’t go to Mass for the Homily. The hymns are nice, but I don’t go to Mass for the hymns. I go to Mass to partake of the Lord’s true presence in the Eucharist. For that, I need a validly ordained priest. I CAN’T leave the Catholic Church. I could no more do without the Eucharist than I could do without air.

 

[MichaelP3]

It almost certainly includes all the unaffiliated, single congregation groups, as well as the malcontents who can’t find something they like in any established denomination and just form a meeting in their home for three or four friends.

But, this doesn’t refute my point. It demonstrates it. It demonstrates the nature of Protestantism. In Protestantism, simple disagreements about doctrine or practice are reason enough to abandon a church and find a new one, especially since there is no authority or hierarchy. If the Bible is your only authority, one teacher is as good as another. Better even, if this teacher is saying what I want to hear. This elevation of personal understanding and preference is what has led to the plethora of denominations and unaffiliated congregations. If you can’t find a pastor or teacher who is preaching what you like or understand, you can just stay home and read the Bible for yourself.

If the only reason I had to go to church was to listen to someone’s opinion and half-formed exegesis, I’d probably stay home, too. When I was protestant, I did. The homily is nice, but I don’t go to Mass for the Homily. The hymns are nice, but I don’t go to Mass for the hymns. I go to Mass to partake of the Lord’s true presence in the Eucharist. For that, I need a validly ordained priest. I CAN’T leave the Catholic Church. I could no more do without the Eucharist than I could do without air.

Well you didn’t respond to my other posts, surely hope you will?

But on this note. You mentioned you are a very experienced Protestant as well. Now I have been “Protestant all my life” and actually stayed with the same Church from my birth. What made you change so many times? You mentioned quite a few?

Regards

 

[GKC]

The 33,000 number is a -bit- of a misrepresentation. It breaks down several of the larger denominations (including the Catholic Church) by geographic region (i.e, by continent). This is partially incorrect because a change in region doesn’t necessarily result in a change in beliefs. With the Catholic Church, the beliefs are the same across the whole world, as is the case with a handful of Protestant denominations.

However, it also can’t be said to be incorrect in all cases because with several Protestant denominations, beliefs can shift from community to community. The so called “core beliefs” may remain constant, but other “non-essential” beliefs are subject to change. The problem is that what constitutes “core beliefs” in these cases is not constant, so it’s hard to really determine if there’s been a split or not.

The number does take into account several variations of non-denominational Christian, though not all of them. This is completely appropriate because one non-denominational community could hold beliefs that are wildly different and incongruous with another.

In reality, the number if probably closer to 20 or 25 thousand, but that doesn’t really dull the point we’re making. Heck, even the lowest estimate I’ve heard, hovering around the 10,000 mark, is enough to make that case that a lack of central authority is a problem.

The source is normally from WORLD CHRISTIAN TRENDS, a publication (and the organization which produces it), much discussed locally, from time to time. Their definition of denomination is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

That is, for its own idiosyncratic purposes, it counts every denomination one time, for each country in which it appears. It counts the RCC the same way, you will note. Which makes it useless for the purpose it often is used for, in such discussions.

Of course, their definition, which yields the oft cited figures, doesn’t affect the concept of “More than one is too many”.

And I’ve posted on it again.

 

[MichaelP3]

The source is normally from WORLD CHRISTIAN TRENDS, a publication (and the organization which produces it), much discussed locally, from time to time. Their definition of denomination is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

That is, for its own idiosyncratic purposes, it counts every denomination one time, for each country in which it appears. It counts the RCC the same way, you will note. Which makes it useless for the purpose it often is used for, in such discussions.

Of course, their definition, which yields the oft cited figures, doesn’t affect the concept of “More than one is too many”.

And I’ve posted on it again.

I would start to question this on the amount of countries they think exist?

 

[GKC]

I would start to question this on the amount of countries they think exist?

Currently, for their purposes, 238. That figure, like the total number of denoms (by their count) changes. I think the first time I saw it it was 22 or 25 thousand denoms, and some 200+ countries. Years ago…

 

[MichaelP3]

Currently, for their purposes, 238. That figure, like the total number of denoms (by their count) changes. I think the first time I saw it it was 22 or 25 thousand denoms, and some 200+ countries. Years ago…

That is way above the UN amount. Even if we include Palestine, Northern Cyprus, South Ossetis and even Transnistria. We are not talking 10 or 20 different. But more like 50.

I’ll check this site tomorrow. But that is way of the amount of countries by far. Like really We have 193 member states of the UN. They need a good a mount to be taken somewhat seriously to get it to that amount?

Regards

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The source is normally from WORLD CHRISTIAN TRENDS, a publication (and the organization which produces it), much discussed locally, from time to time. Their definition of denomination is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

That is, for its own idiosyncratic purposes, it counts every denomination one time, for each country in which it appears. It counts the RCC the same way, you will note. Which makes it useless for the purpose it often is used for, in such discussions.

Of course, their definition, which yields the oft cited figures, doesn’t affect the concept of “More than one is too many”.

And I’ve posted on it again.

Thanks for the info!

 

[GKC]

Thanks for the info!

You are very welcome. It’s a well thrashed subject, on this board. With at least as many interpretations as there are countries. I think.

 

[GKC]

That is way above the UN amount. Even if we include Palestine, Northern Cyprus, South Ossetis and even Transnistria. We are not talking 10 or 20 different. But more like 50.

I’ll check this site tomorrow. But that is way of. Like really.

I have no argument with their methodology. It’s their study; they can define stuff as they wish. Since I don’t pay any particular attention to whatever it asserts, I don’t care. But it’s the only source I’ve ever seen cited, for totals which track those in their publications.

Note that there is no indication in that definition that they use UN figures. And remember to add in dependencies. Perhaps those folks do, too.

 

[MichaelP3]

You are very welcome. It’s a well thrashed subject, on this board. With at least as many interpretations as there are countries. I think.

I do not really know you GKC. But if any board talks about that many countries, that would be something to raise a very high eyebrow to. That is not even true in the slightest part.

 

[GKC]

I do not really know you GKC. But if any board talks about that many countries, that would be something to raise a very high eyebrow to. That is not even true in the slightest part.

See my added note, above. BTW, that is not a board. It is a sociological organization that studies stuff like this and publishes a bunch of results, from time to time.

Some folk do know me better than other folk do. Not sure which are the happier, for it.

 

[MichaelP3]

See my added note, above. BTW, that is not a board. It is a sociological organization that studies stuff like this and publishes a bunch of results, from time to time.

Some folk do know me better than other folk do. Not sure which are the happier, for it.

What’s your note? It is late and I am not seeing much.

But still. Knowing the amount of countries in the word takes a simple google… And when your board/whatever have something different, I would hope it doesn’t differ by 50. Anyway,

Regards