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Kaninchen
Guest
You have the census figures at hand, of course.
There’s certainly a very good ‘physical’ reason for the reduction in the number of Jews in the Holy Land.
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Bezant
Guest
There were times without priests functioning in the Temple, I should say.
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Bezant
Guest
There is a continuity–with regard to Christianity.
On the last comment, it did get lost. I meant to change it, actually. As Kanichen has beaten me, we’ve no proper statistics from this time.
Besides the matter that we could consider more than the three factors you listed, and many challenge the theory you put forth–this period in Jewish history was quite violent.
Then no wonder Jews don’t accept Jesus, if they need only to wait for the Third Temple to practice “full” Judaism.
There were priestly sacrifices in the Sinai, when the Ark was transported in a tent.
And that’s part of the PR problem.
Unless Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic checklist, and especially if it seemed contradictory to the Sinai Covenant.
It certainly can put us in an awkward position.
“According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good, yet still imperfect. Like a tutor it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart. However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.” (CCC, 1963)
If the Sinai Covenant is the imperfect basis of the New Covenant, it can imply that the New Covenant is imperfect. And if the New Covenant’s perfect, why did we back it up with an imperfect covenant–is the question.
Rather like Muslims claiming our Bible was corrupted, and then finding the Prophet Muhammed in the Pslams to prove the Quran.
Or JWs claiming the early Church fell into apostasy but produced infallible Scripture in the form of the NWT.
From their perspective, they’re trying to maintain the integrity of the seed as it has always meant to be.
All respect due, I think you’re quite mistaken, suggesting that Jews reject Jesus because of a) historical persecution from Christians and b) stubbornly holding on to an outdated covenant.
Even without persecution, I think it would be difficult for Christians to sell the Gospel to Jews. I’ve yet to see good Christian responses to Jewish criticism.
I am not saying, however, that we need to concede the Hebrew Bible to Judaism, or give up Christianity.
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Bezant
Guest
To add to this,
I don’t think anyone nowadays can say who’s a true kohen, although for Orthodox Jews, a few applicable responsibilities and restrictions still apply.
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scipio337
Guest
original source here is lacking, but I’ve seen this quoted in other areas.
Pope Benedict XVI said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=599864&postcount=28
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20040708_declaration-buenos-aires_en.html
John Paul II:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20040708_declaration-buenos-aires_en.html
I think we can separate political and relgious Zionism.
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manualman
Guest
Alas, not everything is instantly at hand on the internet. As I recall the claim came from an article by Fr. Richard John Neuhaus in a 2005 issue of First Things. Fr. Nuehaus is generally not someone anybody reasonable suspects of anti-semitism or poor research… But I freely admit to having no instant link at hand.
As I recall, the numbers weren’t restricted to the Holy Land, but it has been a while. But I doubt you’d thwart Fr. Neuhaus that easily either.
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manualman
Guest
Bezant, Jewish scholars have indeed constructed formidable arguments against Christ’s claim to being the Messiah. Although charity demands that we assume good intention of opponents in debates, we must also recognize that 2,000 years have gone by and the teachings of Judaism today are not necessarily the way they were interpreted at the time of Christ.
We are going to get a REALLY interesting window into that reality as the Dead Sea Scrolls become available to the common public. They will open a window in time on to what Judaism really believed in that time. As I recall from my (secular university) biblical archeology class, the scrolls contents are rather inconvenient for many of today’s Jewish scholarly traditions. Unfortunately, that was even longer ago than my 2005 First Things article, so I’m really no help at all on the citation front. DO keep an eye on that Isaiah scroll though… I remember that much.
We are going to get a REALLY interesting window into that reality as the Dead Sea Scrolls become available to the common public. They will open a window in time on to what Judaism really believed in that time. As I recall from my (secular university) biblical archeology class, the scrolls contents are rather inconvenient for many of today’s Jewish scholarly traditions. Unfortunately, that was even longer ago than my 2005 First Things article, so I’m really no help at all on the citation front. DO keep an eye on that Isaiah scroll though… I remember that much.
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Kaninchen
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Well, rather depends on whether he’s got the census returns or it’s spin upon spin, I’d say.
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manualman
Guest
I take it back. Everything IS on the internet nowadays.
firstthings.com/article/2009/02/why-the-jews-did-or-did-not-reject-jesus-10
The whole article is interesting and relevent to this thread, but this is the specific portion I was thinking of:
“…Scholars generally agree that in the first century there were approximately six million Jews in the Roman Empire (for some reason, Klinghoffer says five million). That was about one tenth of the entire population. About one million were in Palestine, including today’s State of Israel, while those in the diaspora were very much part of the establishment in cities such as Alexandria and Constantinople. At one point Klinghoffer acknowledges that, during the life of Jesus, only a minuscule minority of Jews either accepted or rejected Jesus, for the simple reason that most Jews had not heard of him. Some scholars have noted that, by the fourth or fifth century, there were only a few hundred thousand, at most a million, people who identified themselves as Jews. What happened to the millions of others? The most likely answer, it is suggested, is that they became Christians…”
Alas, I don’t see his citations either, but he implies these are NOT controversial numbers in scholarly circles. Again, not the sort of claim a man like that makes without doing his homework. Have you evidence to the contrary I should know about?
firstthings.com/article/2009/02/why-the-jews-did-or-did-not-reject-jesus-10
The whole article is interesting and relevent to this thread, but this is the specific portion I was thinking of:
“…Scholars generally agree that in the first century there were approximately six million Jews in the Roman Empire (for some reason, Klinghoffer says five million). That was about one tenth of the entire population. About one million were in Palestine, including today’s State of Israel, while those in the diaspora were very much part of the establishment in cities such as Alexandria and Constantinople. At one point Klinghoffer acknowledges that, during the life of Jesus, only a minuscule minority of Jews either accepted or rejected Jesus, for the simple reason that most Jews had not heard of him. Some scholars have noted that, by the fourth or fifth century, there were only a few hundred thousand, at most a million, people who identified themselves as Jews. What happened to the millions of others? The most likely answer, it is suggested, is that they became Christians…”
Alas, I don’t see his citations either, but he implies these are NOT controversial numbers in scholarly circles. Again, not the sort of claim a man like that makes without doing his homework. Have you evidence to the contrary I should know about?
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Kaninchen
Guest
It’s spin on spin, conjecture upon conjecture by ‘some scholars’ (whoever they may be) with a ‘most likely answer’ that takes no account of the devastation that took place during and following the various revolts against Roman rule.
Wishful thinking dressed in appeals to nebulous ‘authority’.
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manualman
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So your position is that anybody with a different interpretation than yours (which equally lacks any sort of scholarly citation here) is “wishful thinking.” Nice.
Catholicism and Judaism obviously have major differences in how we see the Old Testament Scriptures and interpret the history of the time of Jesus. Obviouslly y’all think you have THE correct understanding and interpretation of God’s covenant. What surprises me is the number of catholics that seem prepared to agree with you without recognizing that we have (at least) an equal claim on the legacy of the covenant which is NOT diluted nor abrogated by its fulfillment in Christ and extension of its benefits to the gentiles, even if that occurrence did expand the description of “God’s chosen people” from Jews alone, to potentially all of humanity.
It hardly needs a scholarly citation to assert the essential Jewishness of Jesus, the apostles and St. Paul. It is what Christ did as messiah that made it possible for St. Paul to preach what he did to the gentiles. The Church quite simply never stopped being Israel, “wishful thinking” on your end notwithstanding (See, we can both toss that around if we like). I don’t expect you’ll agree, of course. But it does help to understand where each side is coming from.
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jam070406
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Your third quote is not the words of a Pope. And it is in contradiction to official Catholic Teaching in regards to the old covenant.
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scipio337
Guest
I realize it is not directly from the Pope, but it is a Vatican release. It seemed to me to be in line with Nostra Aetate. What did you find that went against Catholic Teaching?
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jam070406
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Nostra Aetate states the old covenant is concluded, not unbroken.
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Kaninchen
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My position is that conjecture is conjecture.
Which is all terribly important to Christians and not at all important to us.
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A_Catholic
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Thank you for posting this. I have only recently come to see that Zionism is NOT the same as Judaism. It is political in nature and has nothing to do with Jewish worship. Many Orthodox Jews completely reject Zionism.
This is from an article from The New York Times on Jews who reject Zionism:
*The rejection of Zion, though, goes back to the Torah itself, with its accounts of the Hebrews’ rebelling against Moses on the journey toward the Promised Land and pleading to return to Egypt. Until Theodore Herzl created the modern Zionist movement early in the 20th century, the biblical injunction to return to Israel was widely understood as a theological construct rather than a pragmatic instruction.
Most Orthodox Jewish leaders before the Holocaust rejected Zionism, saying the exile was a divine punishment and Israel could be restored only in the messianic age. The Reform movement maintained that Judaism is a religion, not a nationality.*
As stated in this article, Zionism was created in the 20th Century by Theodor Herzl. This is from the Wikipedia article on Herzl:
Beginning in late 1895, Herzl wrote Der Judenstaat, (The Jewish State). It was published February, 1896 to immediate acclaim and controversy. In the book he outlines the reasons for the Jewish people, who so desire, to leave Europe, either for Argentina or for their historic homeland, Palestine, which he seems to prefer. The book and Herzl’s ideas spread very rapidly throughout the Jewish world and attracted international attention. Supporters of existing Zionist movements such as the Hovevei Zion were immediately drawn to, and allied with, Herzl. Controversially, Herzl and his ideas are vilified by establishment Jewry who perceive his ideas both as threatening to their efforts at acceptance and integration in their resident countries and as rebellion against the will of God.
As you so well stated in your post, the Catholic Church, along with many orthodox, religious Jews, completely rejects Zionism, which is a purely political movement.
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Janet1983
Guest
The majority of the Jewish community however does not reject Zionism and even among the Non-Zionist Jews the state of Israel is accepted as a secular state.
The interesting part is that Theodor Herzl’s books that founded Zionism talks about just that: Israel as a secular state and a home for Jews. Israel in its conception is not a theocracy, though it is a Jewish state. It is a secular state giving the same rights to non-Jewish citizens it is giving to Jewish citizens. The first Israeli administration had Arabs in them…
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JustaServant
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Janet1983
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A little while ago… goodness, I haven’t been here in forever and a day.Janet…when did you become Jewish?
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JustaServant
Guest
Welcome back to the forums Janet.
I thought I remembered you as the firebrand evangelical a few years ago.
In fact I even looked back at your old posts to make sure it was the same person.
Good to hear from you again.
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