Catholics... Just As Bad As Protestants?

[yochumjy]

Singinbeauty:

Those verses you provided are true and I agree whole-heartedly… I never said and I truly hope it was never conveyed in my messages that you should not listen to the church and the guidance it provides but I am saying that I take everything with a grain of salt. With a world so full of hurt and pain and confusion I want to make sure that I agree with what someone is telling me for a lot of the time interpretation is built on experience. I hope I am making sense

Then maybe we are misunderstanding you, which is quite possible. Forgive me, but the above seems to be in stark contrast to:

I do not commit to ANYONE except God and Jesus Christ. No MAN will tell me anymore what to think and how to believe when it comes to my faith.

You are assuming here that if you hear something the church says that you don’t agree with, you are ALWAYS correct. Jesus asked the Father to “take this cup away from me”, but he also said “thy will be done”. It doesn’t sound like he was exactly endorsing the will of the Father, but followed it none the less. How do you reconcile the two statements of yours compared to the statements of Christ?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

Those verses you provided are true and I agree whole-heartedly… I never said and I truly hope it was never conveyed in my messages that you should not listen to the church and the guidance it provides but I am saying that I take everything with a grain of salt. With a world so full of hurt and pain and confusion I want to make sure that I agree with what someone is telling me for a lot of the time interpretation is built on experience. I hope I am making sense

Hello again Singinbeauty;

I agree that you should test everything and take what others teach with ‘a grain of salt.’ The concept is not inconsistent with Catholic faith. I think where Catholics and Reformed Christians part ways is really in how we test what others teach. In other words, we disagree on where the authority to teach resides. Catholics look to the teaching authority of the Church (which BTW has never been inconsistent with Scriptures) while Reformed Christians look to the reformed Bible alone - a great starting place but from a Catholic perspective a road that is fraught with peril from a doctrinal perspective.

In that same vein, I agree with you that one’s personal interpretation of the bible is built (at least in part) on one’s personal experiences. Thus, everyone has their own interpretation of Scripture to some degree because each of us has a unique set of personal experiences. But doesn’t that mean that one’s personal interpretation of the Bible is not the complete truth, unless one has an absolute completeness of experience?

 

[Singinbeauty]

yochumjy:

Originally Posted by Singinbeauty
Those verses you provided are true and I agree whole-heartedly… I never said and I truly hope it was never conveyed in my messages that you should not listen to the church and the guidance it provides but I am saying that I take everything with a grain of salt. With a world so full of hurt and pain and confusion I want to make sure that I agree with what someone is telling me for a lot of the time interpretation is built on experience. I hope I am making sense

Then maybe we are misunderstanding you, which is quite possible. Forgive me, but the above seems to be in stark contrast to:

I do not commit to ANYONE except God and Jesus Christ. No MAN will tell me anymore what to think and how to believe when it comes to my faith.

I think we are missing a step which in ENTIRELY possible… Knowing my track record… LOL

When I say that I don’t commit to ANYONE except God and Jesus Christ I mean that I follow them and them alone. I take what my pastor says with a grain of salt and if something doesn’t make sense I ask further questions either of him or someone I trust and then conclude for myself whether I agree or not. I don’t find myself disagreeing often especially when it comes to the church I attend now. I believe that the Holy Spirit tells us what is right and wrong even when it comes to interpretation of the bible.

You are assuming here that if you hear something the church says that you don’t agree with, you are ALWAYS correct. Jesus asked the Father to “take this cup away from me”, but he also said “thy will be done”. It doesn’t sound like he was exactly endorsing the will of the Father, but followed it none the less. How do you reconcile the two statements of yours compared to the statements of Christ?

But I am not talking about disagreeing with God in things He wants you to do in this life but doctrinal disagreement of certain churches if not all. Everyone claims that God told them to do something or say something or preach something. Look at Colorado City where they torture, abuse, and marry off young children while telling them they are going to be wiping out the ‘evil’ people of the world and the moon landing never happened. Or how about the KKK that thinks that God tells them to kill people of other races and to hate. Or how about the catholic church during the crusades and burning those who opposed the church at the stake claiming that this is what God wanted. Even the protestants that kill in the name of Jesus those who disagree. I don’t believe in total blind faith when it comes to what someone tells me. I have to test it for myself.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello again;

You wrote:

When I say that I don’t commit to ANYONE except God and Jesus Christ I mean that I follow them and them alone. I take what my pastor says with a grain of salt and if something doesn’t make sense I ask further questions either of him or someone I trust and then conclude for myself whether I agree or not. I don’t find myself disagreeing often especially when it comes to the church I attend now. I believe that the Holy Spirit tells us what is right and wrong even when it comes to interpretation of the bible.

If you conclude that what your pastor teaches is wrong (and you’ve implied that on a few occasions this has occurred) does that mean that you believe your understanding is more correct than his understanding on that particular issue? If so, why do you believe your personal understanding is more correct than your pastor, a person who has devoted his entire life to the study and preaching of the word of God? And if you believe that he would likely be more correct but you’re just not sure, then aren’t you turning away from a fuller understanding of the truth if you refuse to accept his teaching and follow your own limited personal understanding?

 

[dumspirospero]

Here is an excerpt from one of the pages on the aforementioned website: cccsumner.org/home.aspService Style

If you’re like most of us, “running late” can become a way of life. Whether it’s a playdate at the park or a job interview-sometimes “getting where we need to go” just doesn’t happen the way we planned.

Calvary realizes how hectic life can be and that the demands of life can spill over into your weekends-and that includes coming to church! Guess what? We’ve made life a little easier for you with seven (yes, seven!) services.

It’s all about style…Calvary’s casual atmosphere, contemporary services, friendly congregation and staff will make you feel right at home. Worship is contemporary and lead by a team of talented and enthusiastic musicians while Senior Pastor Ray Armstrong delivers the message. Pastor Ray is a gifted speaker and presents Biblical and practical tools for living life effectively***.***

It seems seems to me they have discovered the true purpose of why we should go to Church…I might have to leave the RCC and check them out.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Robert in SD:

Hello again;

If you conclude that what your pastor teaches is wrong (and you’ve implied that on a few occasions this has occurred) does that mean that you believe your understanding is more correct than his understanding on that particular issue? If so, why do you believe your personal understanding is more correct than your pastor, a person who has devoted his entire life to the study and preaching of the word of God? And if you believe that he would likely be more correct but you’re just not sure, then aren’t you turning away from a fuller understanding of the truth if you refuse to accept his teaching and follow your own limited personal understanding?

It doesn’t necessarily mean that I think I am more right and he is therefore WRONG… It means that I don’t take everything he says at face value. If it doesn’t make sense I am not just going to say well, he must be right… he is a pastor after all. I am going to go read my bible and prove to myself whether I believe he is right or not. The Holy Spirit moves within us and I try to listen very hard to what I am being told. Do you think that it was right for the people whose church told them that if they speak out against the catholic church they will be burned to just blindly believe that? The catholic church was not right in this proclimation and this was not something God told them to do but they said it was so that they could control the people who attended. It happens in every denomination… Using something they say God told them as the church to use over the people who follow. I follow God and God alone… not the church who has shown time and time again just how human it is…

I still go to church because God has told us to fellowship with each other. And I do learn a tremendous amount when I listen. I don’t know everything but I do pick up on topics that don’t make sense in regards to the God I have come to know and love.

 

[yochumjy]

Singinbeauty:

When I say that I don’t commit to ANYONE except God and Jesus Christ I mean that I follow them and them alone. I take what my pastor says with a grain of salt and if something doesn’t make sense I ask further questions either of him or someone I trust and then conclude for myself whether I agree or not. I don’t find myself disagreeing often especially when it comes to the church I attend now. I believe that the Holy Spirit tells us what is right and wrong even when it comes to interpretation of the bible.

Our link to the Holy Spirit is certainly there, but due to our fallen nature, I believe it is tenuous at best, especially in matters of translated documents from 2000 yrs ago or so…

Singinbeauty:

But I am not talking about disagreeing with God in things He wants you to do in this life but doctrinal disagreement of certain churches if not all. Everyone claims that God told them to do something or say something or preach something. Look at Colorado City where they torture, abuse, and marry off young children while telling them they are going to be wiping out the ‘evil’ people of the world and the moon landing never happened. Or how about the KKK that thinks that God tells them to kill people of other races and to hate.

And you know that God only tells you the truth about doctrine? How are you guarenteed this? Do you consider yourself to be perfect in the translation and application of doctrine as laid out in the Bible? Do you read the original Greek and understand the nuances of language at that time? I am not mocking you, but I will admit a certain amount of incredulousness at the thought of the above.

Singinbeauty:

Or how about the catholic church during the crusades and burning those who opposed the church at the stake claiming that this is what God wanted.

Please, at least bring up something of merit. The crusades had some bad people in them, but the call to them was completely founded. And if you are talking about the inquisition, then it was not led by the Church (although I think that the , and was actually a more humane court system for the time, even if we realize that some of the justice done was inhumane by today’s standards. In general holding a grudge against people today due to the injustices of the past are quite silly. If we follow that to it’s logical conclusion we would all have to ignore and decry sheriffs and judges, after all they used to hang people in the old west.

 

[dumspirospero]

I don’t know why any non-denoms even attend Church…they don’t listen to any preacher or ecclessial authority…they don’t believe it is a mortal sin to miss Sunday service or Holy Days…they all believe that they are their own pope and magisterium…they all believe their personal beliefs about God and Scripture are correct…With all of that said…I just don’t see the necessity in going to Church as a non-Denom. One thing I do know is that their are millions of them out there with conflicting views on everything in the Bible, all claiming to be led to their conclusion by the Holy Spirit…not a single one of them ever stops to think that God is not going to contradict himself…he will not reveal 5 different truths to 5 different people…There is only 1 truth and all the others claiming to be true are false and heretical. Yet Catholics because we have believed the same things for 2,000 years and all orthodox Catholics share the same beliefs…we get bashed for it. It sure is nice to have a Pope and a magisterium, doctrine, etc. to rely on to infallibly tell me what I believe and how I can get my sinful butt to heaven, because quite frankly, If I had to depend on my own broken, sinful, and pathetic self…I wouldn’t have a chance.

 

[Singinbeauty]

dumspirospero:

Here is an excerpt from one of the pages on the aforementioned website: cccsumner.org/home.aspService Style

If you’re like most of us, “running late” can become a way of life. Whether it’s a playdate at the park or a job interview-sometimes “getting where we need to go” just doesn’t happen the way we planned.

Calvary realizes how hectic life can be and that the demands of life can spill over into your weekends-and that includes coming to church! Guess what? We’ve made life a little easier for you with seven (yes, seven!) services.

It’s all about style…Calvary’s casual atmosphere, contemporary services, friendly congregation and staff will make you feel right at home. Worship is contemporary and lead by a team of talented and enthusiastic musicians while Senior Pastor Ray Armstrong delivers the message. Pastor Ray is a gifted speaker and presents Biblical and practical tools for living life effectively***.***

It seems seems to me they have discovered the true purpose of why we should go to Church…I might have to leave the RCC and check them out.

I am confused… why is this something that is wrong? They are trying to convey something that I really like about this church… It’s comfortable. Not stuffy like a lot of churches I have attended. You feel comfortable to walk in because it appeals to today’s person. A person who is not a christian is comfortable to walk in there because it isn’t so formal. Some people just have to pick apart something they haven’t experienced because it just sounds foreign… Don’t knock it until you have walked in and experienced it yourself.

P.S. I think you should check out the “What we believe” section… It really all comes down to that right?

 

[dumspirospero]

This is the problem with Christianity today…there are millions of Popes all with different beliefs and conflicting dogmas…yet they are all claiming to being led by the Holy Spirit. Did you ever stop and ask yourself why the Holy Spirit would lead millions of people all in different directions away from the truth? Ever stop to think that maybe its not the Holy Spirit leading you…maybe someone else?? Because God would create division amongst us…it is asinine to say such.

Singinbeauty:

I am going to go read my bible and prove to myself whether I believe he is right or not. The Holy Spirit moves within us and I try to listen very hard to what I am being told. QUOTE]

 

[Strider]

Singinbeauty:

I would if this was the first place I had seen this but sadly I see it everywhere I go. I will admit that there are things about the catholic faith that perplex me to no end. I am hoping to find out from REAL catholics the answers to these questions. To me, it seems like the basis for the catholic church is more about tradition than christianity. Jesus spoke so many times about love but I don’t see that reflected in most catholic’s posts or answers when it comes to them describing protestants. I am not saying this is their mission but it’s the way it comes across to me.

What I believe…

I am NON DENOMINATIONAL. I do not commit to ANYONE except God and Jesus Christ. No MAN will tell me anymore what to think and how to believe when it comes to my faith. I am a CHRISTIAN. I believe that Jesus Christ came to this earth to be the sacrifice needed to save us. I believe that if you believe with all your heart that Jesus is the way (the ONLY way) to God then you are going to Heaven. No matter what you do in this life. God looks at your heart not your actions. This means that if you TRULY believe that Jesus is who He said He was you will strive to follow His teachings. You may faulter but God does not punish you for being human. Why would God create us to react in certain ways to certain situations and then condemn us for reacting in such ways? If God is a Just God then He would not do this.

Bottom line… ALL religion is MAN-MADE but a relationship with God is MADE BY GOD…

Welcome, Singinbeauty,
This post of yours, the “What I Believe” part, contains enough information to keep us all busy for months.
I am a cradle Catholic and, boy, I really disagree with a lot of what you said here. From my perspective, it shows a lot of…I’ll just say “misunderstnading,” but you are far from alone in holding these beliefs.
One way to go about discussing the differencs we have is to start throwing Scripture at each other, but that’s counterproductive.
It seems best to select one topic of disagreement and work on that.
You wrote that there are things about the Catholic faith that perplex you.
Pick one, any one but just one. Begin a thread with your question stated with the civility you’ve shown in this thread. And another thing; I’ve seen too many Catholic bashers begin a thread with what seems like a sincere but controversial question, get lots of us going, only never to be heard from again. We have a name for them. It begins with T… The reason I’m responding is because you remained engaged.
So, please, ask questions, one at a time, and stick around for the discussion.
Again, welcome. And do visit the Catholic Answers link. It’s a great place to start.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello again Singinbeauty;

You wrote:

I don’t believe in total blind faith when it comes to what someone tells me. I have to test it for myself.

What do you test it against? Are you suggesting that one is to test what is taught against only our own understanding of Scripture as informed by our personal experiences? But doesn’t that lead to support for the interpretations of people in the KKK and in Colorado City if everyone’s personal interpretation of Scripture is sufficient?

 

[dumspirospero]

FIrst off, I know what it is like…unfortuneatly I come from a Protestant family and as an adult I made the decision to convert. What I was pointing out by quoting that paragraph is that IS NOT why you should go to Church…Church should not be a social event or anything of the sort. And I have read what they “believe”
I don’t have enough time to dissect all the heresies in it…but it wasn’t all that impressive…I was raised in that type of protestant Church and I always found it lacking and deficient…that is why I had to make the switch.

Singinbeauty:

I am confused… why is this something that is wrong? They are trying to convey something that I really like about this church… It’s comfortable. Not stuffy like a lot of churches I have attended. You feel comfortable to walk in because it appeals to today’s person. A person who is not a christian is comfortable to walk in there because it isn’t so formal. Some people just have to pick apart something they haven’t experienced because it just sounds foreign… Don’t knock it until you have walked in and experienced it yourself.

P.S. I think you should check out the “What we believe” section… It really all comes down to that right?

 

[Singinbeauty]

And you know that God only tells you the truth about doctrine? How are you guarenteed this? Do you consider yourself to be perfect in the translation and application of doctrine as laid out in the Bible? Do you read the original Greek and understand the nuances of language at that time? I am not mocking you, but I will admit a certain amount of incredulousness at the thought of the above.

I believe that God through the Holy Spirit will bring to light anything that is ‘confused’. As with anyone. If your priest told you that God said it was ok to molest little boys would you believe him because he is a priest or would you test that against what you read in the bible?

Please, at least bring up something of merit. The crusades had some bad people in them, but the call to them was completely founded. And if you are talking about the inquisition, then it was not led by the Church (although I think that the , and was actually a more humane court system for the time, even if we realize that some of the justice done was inhumane by today’s standards. In general holding a grudge against people today due to the injustices of the past are quite silly. If we follow that to it’s logical conclusion we would all have to ignore and decry sheriffs and judges, after all they used to hang people in the old west.

Are you saying that the burning of people at the stake for heresy just because they questioned the ‘church’ and it’s teachings was not led by the catholic church? Hmmmmm that’s news to me since it was directed by the leaders of the catholic church. shrug

It sure is nice to have a Pope and a magisterium, doctrine, etc. to rely on to infallibly tell me what I believe and how I can get my sinful butt to heaven, because quite frankly, If I had to depend on my own broken, sinful, and pathetic self…I wouldn’t have a chance.

please note a certain sarcasm in this next comment So you are saying that you are content in being a mindless drone when it comes to your salvation and the relationship you hold with God? Let someone else tell you who God is? Ok, it’s up to you… shrug

 

[Singinbeauty]

I don’t have enough time to dissect all the heresies in it…

Wow… what a way to make me want to convert. Just come out and say I am stupid for what I believe… Wow…

Ahem… This is from the doctinal statement at my church…

Scripture is an essential part and trustworthy record of divine disclosure. All the books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, are the written word of God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice. They are to be interpreted according to their context and purpose and in reverent obedience to the Lord who speaks through them in living power.

Psalm 19:7

The law of the LORD is perfect,
   reviving the soul.
The decrees of the LORD are trustworthy,
   making wise the simple.

John 17:17

17Make them pure and holy by teaching them your words of truth.

Romans 15:4

4Such things were written in the Scriptures long ago to teach us. They give us hope and encouragement as we wait patiently for God’s promises.

1 Thessalonians 2:13

13And we will never stop thanking God that when we preached his message to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own. You accepted what we said as the very word of God–which, of course, it was. And this word continues to work in you who believe.

2 Timothy 3:15-17

15You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right. 17It is God’s way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do.

Please ‘enlighten’ me on what heresy is being taught here?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

I am confused… why is this something that is wrong? They are trying to convey something that I really like about this church… It’s comfortable. Not stuffy like a lot of churches I have attended. You feel comfortable to walk in because it appeals to today’s person. A person who is not a christian is comfortable to walk in there because it isn’t so formal. Some people just have to pick apart something they haven’t experienced because it just sounds foreign… Don’t knock it until you have walked in and experienced it yourself.

P.S. I think you should check out the “What we believe” section… It really all comes down to that right?

Hello again Singinbeauty;

As a Catholic, it seems “watered down” for lack of a better phrase. But that’s because Catholics see the Sunday service as something much more than “fellowshipping” with brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s not that fellowship is bad either. Fellowship is good and it has its proper place in the life of every christian. Indeed, I would like to see more fellowship among Catholics, but fellowship should never take the place of mass, which is precisely what reformed christianity has done. As Reformed Christianity drifts further from Catholic Christianity the sunday mass deflates into a lesser form of communion with God. Reformed Sunday worship services are a nice but incomplete substitute for the mass that protestantism has in large part chosen to jetison from its doctrine. Moreover, because your “what we believe” statement ultimately leaves doctrinal decisions to the individual, dum’s calling into question the need for a protestant sunday worship service seems well founded. Why not just meet on Friday night for dinner and a movie? Why have formal sermons when ultimately everyone can simply dismiss what the pastor teaches?

 

[dumspirospero]

No…I am saying bluntly the fact that you and millions more like you out there exist with your non-denominational beliefs is proof that you are in error and the Holy Spirit is not divinely revealing truths to you or inspiring you because if that was the case, all of you would believe the same thing…actually, you would all be Catholic. God will not contradict himself and lead you to error…you may be being led allright…but you need to sees whoes neck you have your leash around…because it certainly isn’t The Holy Spirit…isn’t there a great deceiver you read about somewhere in your Bible?

Singinbeauty:

please note a certain sarcasm in this next comment So you are saying that you are content in being a mindless drone when it comes to your salvation and the relationship you hold with God? Let someone else tell you who God is? Ok, it’s up to you… shrug

 

[dumspirospero]

Exactly…that was the point I was trying to make…Thanks Robert.
Robert in SD:

Hello again Singinbeauty;

Moreover, because your “what we believe” statement ultimately leaves doctrinal decisions to the individual, dum’s calling into question the need for a protestant sunday worship service seems well founded. Why not just meet on Friday night for dinner and a movie? Why have formal sermons when ultimately everyone can simply dismiss what the pastor teaches?

 

[Eden]

There is so much to answer, it’s difficult to choose which topic to address first. I’ll address the Inquisition first because it is a pet-peeve of mine when the Church is accused of burning heretics. The Church never burned heretics, the secular authorities did. The Inquisition was created to save people who may have been unjustly accused by secular authorities of heresy. (Heresy was a crime of the state.) Can we please not perpetuate the “heretic burning myth” in serious discussion. Here’s an article on the Inquisition:

nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

Moving beyond the Inquisition, my question for you singinbeauty is, does anyone have authority in your church? For instance, does your pastor have a distinct role in your church or do members rotate presiding over the services each week so that you are pastor one Sunday and then “Joe Smith” takes a turn next Sun.?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I don’t have enough time to dissect all the heresies in it…

Wow… what a way to make me want to convert. Just come out and say I am stupid for what I believe… Wow…

Heretical beliefs do not make a person stupid. To the contrary, some very intelligent people have held heretical beliefs. From a Catholic perspective Martin Luther was a heretic who hung “toe to toe” with the great Catholic minds of his time. Would a Protestant call John Paul II “stupid” because he was a “heretical” Catholic?

If I thought you were stupid I would not bother to engage you in discussion. But I understand your defensiveness as a visitor to a Catholic discussion board. You have courage for remaining and seeking a dialogue.

Peace