Catholics... Just As Bad As Protestants?

[Strider]

Singinbeauty,
I took a peek at the link you provided. I found this:

“What We Believe
At Calvary, we believe there are core issues on which we should all agree. These include the inspiration of the Bible, the Trinity, the virgin birth of Jesus and His physical resurrection. Experience has taught us that there is much in the Bible that leaves room for more than one opinion. We try to remember that it is more important to be loving than to be right”

When immortal souls are involved, I’m sorry, but it’s a whole lot more important to be right than to be loving.
And do you really believe that the Bible “leaves room for more than one opinion?” Wouldn’t that make the Holy Spirit confused at best and a liar at worst?
I’m trying my hardest to not be too critical, but this sounds more like something a lawyer woud write.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Moreover, because your “what we believe” statement ultimately leaves doctrinal decisions to the individual, dum’s calling into question the need for a protestant sunday worship service seems well founded. Why not just meet on Friday night for dinner and a movie? Why have formal sermons when ultimately everyone can simply dismiss what the pastor teaches?

First of all, no where did I say I simply can dismiss whatever the pastor teaches. But I do have the right to delve into what he says and preaches and determine whether I believe it was from God or not.

Next, how do you think that the first ‘church’ met? They met in eachother’s houses not a big building. They discussed scripture and the letters Peter and Paul wrote them. They worshipped God and would spend hours doing so. They did not meet on Sunday in the local cathedral that is so overly ornate and gawdy(sp?) in some places. And listen to someone drone on about what they SHOULD believe blindly - then stand then sit then stand again - while holding a piece of jewlery - and pray to Mary for intercession. Again, there are certain practices I don’t understand so maybe it will come into light later…

 

[Eden]

Another question: How did evangelization take place before the Bible was written and compiled? Since they couldn’t go by “Bible alone” for almost four centuries, was their message faulty?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Strider:

Singinbeauty,
We try to remember that it is more important to be loving than to be right"

I’m trying my hardest to not be too critical, but this sounds more like something a lawyer woud write.

Hey! I’m a lawyer and I wouldn’t write that.

 

[Strider]

This is the part the lawyer might’ve written.

“Experience has taught us that there is much in the Bible that leaves room for more than one opinion”

 

[Singinbeauty]

We try to remember that it is more important to be loving than to be right

To me, this statement says that we are not to crack someone over the head with the bible and what we believe to be right instead of being loving because that person is more likely to listen to love than stern hate (or what they perceive to be hate).

my question for you singinbeauty is, does anyone have authority in your church? For instance, does your pastor have a distinct role in your church or do members rotate presiding over the services each week so that you are pastor one Sunday and then “Joe Smith” takes a turn next Sun.?

No, we have a Sr. Pastor who is the primary speaker unless he is on vacation or something. I think something may have gotten misconstrued somewhere… I am never EXPECTING my pastor to be wrong. And most of the time if I disagree with something I delve a bit deeper and find, in my study of the bible, that he is right I just wasn’t understanding where he was coming from.

And do you really believe that the Bible “leaves room for more than one opinion?” Wouldn’t that make the Holy Spirit confused at best and a liar at worst?

The main issues are pretty clear, especially Salvation. Those will not be misinterpreted if the heart of the person reading it is purely after God. But when it comes to the rest I believe that God uses the bible to teach us each our individual lessons.

 

[scylla]

I think what some of the replies are trying to convey is not a problem with the belief in Christ or that we should love God or each other, but the teaching of personal interpretation is bad.

I think that the statement of belief is good in that it teaches truths of the Bible. There is one God, a belief in the Trinity, Scripture is profitable for teaching *, etc.

One of the things we get accused of and sometimes rightly so is charitability. Sometimes we are so concerned with defending the truth we forget a little on how important it is just to be nice. Please understand this is just a result of people stating we are wrong or bad in some way. Even the nicest ones of us sometimes just feels like pointing out the truth without remembering 1 Peter 3:15-16.

So feel free to ask questions, and just because people have done bad things in the name of the Church, it is because they are human. If someone kills someone in the name of God, or a Bible Christian leads people astray, does that mean that God is evil or the Bible is wrong? People do horrible, horrible things, what is important is to look for the truth.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Singinbeauty]

Another question: How did evangelization take place before the Bible was written and compiled? Since they couldn’t go by “Bible alone” for almost four centuries, was their message faulty?

Good question! You get a gold star!

My faith is built on my relationship with God himself. The building blocks are taken from the bible because unfortunately I cannot hear his physical voice due to our separation from him. The bible may not have been written at that time but the scripture was. The letters used in the bible existed and that is what was used so technically the bible did exist it just wasn’t in the form we have sitting on our shelves or right next to us.

 

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

No, we have a Sr. Pastor who is the primary speaker unless he is on vacation or something. I think something may have gotten misconstrued somewhere… I am never EXPECTING my pastor to be wrong. And most of the time if I disagree with something I delve a bit deeper and find, in my study of the bible, that he is right I just wasn’t understanding where he was coming from.

But why does he have a higher position than you? With your style of church, shouldn’t you all go together and read from the Bible and take turns going to the microphone and commenting on the passages. I don’t understand the point of having a pastor. As soon as you have a pastor, you begin to have a church hierarchy.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Eden:

But why does he have a higher position than you? With your style of church, shouldn’t you all go together and read from the Bible and take turns going to the microphone and commenting on the passages. I don’t understand the point of having a pastor. As soon as you have a pastor, you begin to have a church hierarchy.

And there is nothing wrong with church hierarchy… There are those who know WAY more than I do because they have studied it more than me. But I have the right to question what they say and to test it for myself.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

First of all, no where did I say I simply can dismiss whatever the pastor teaches. But I do have the right to delve into what he says and preaches and determine whether I believe it was from God or not.

Next, how do you think that the first ‘church’ met? They met in eachother’s houses not a big building. They discussed scripture and the letters Peter and Paul wrote them. They worshipped God and would spend hours doing so. They did not meet on Sunday in the local cathedral that is so overly ornate and gawdy(sp?) in some places. And listen to someone drone on about what they SHOULD believe blindly - then stand then sit then stand again - while holding a piece of jewlery - and pray to Mary for intercession. Again, there are certain practices I don’t understand so maybe it will come into light later…

(1) You said that everything should be taken with a grain of salt and that ultimately it is personal experience that guides your interpretation. Does this not mean that ultimately you make the decision as to what is true and what is not true, trusting int he Holy Spirit to be there to guide your discernment of doctrine?

(2) I know how the first churches met. In small groups, and in secret during times of persecution. It is the tradition practiced at those early meetings from which the liturgy of the mass arises. The breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup is the center of the mass. Catholics believe and have always believed that God is Real and Present during the mass. The Catholic Church also spends time with the word of God in the mass -every week. And they spend time in mass in worship of God just as the early church did. It is not the empty and hollow ritual you seem to think it is. And it is entirely consistent with the early church. (Read Cardinal Newman - a protestant convert to the Catholic Church who wrote that to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.)

(3) Cathedrals came later - and arose from the need to worship and give glory to God. Some Cathedrals are gaudy (or Guadi’ if you are in Barcelona) while others are beautiful. It’s all a matter of taste I suppose. It has nothing to do with doctrinal truth.

(4) Catholics are not asked to believe “blindly.” You are laboring under a common misperception of the Catholic faith to the extent you think one must set aside reason to be Catholic.

(5) Yes. We pray to Mary and all the saints, asking for their intercessory prayers to God on our behalf. But that is not the focus of the Mass, which is entirely Christ centered. The practice or prayer to the saints dates back to the very early Church and has Scriptural support.

(6) What do you mean by “piece of jewelry.” If you mean a rosary, that prayer is not part of the Mass, but it is a beautiful contemplative prayer focusing primarily upon the life and ministry of Christ. Rosary beads are used to keep track of the meditations, but the beads themselves are not necessary for the prayer, nor are they required at mass. (If you meant something else by “jewelry” then please explain.)

If you have specific questions about any of these, this is certainly the forum to ask, but I suggest separate threads for the discreet questions you’ve raised.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

Good question! You get a gold star!

The bible may not have been written at that time but the scripture was. The letters used in the bible existed and that is what was used so technically the bible did exist it just wasn’t in the form we have sitting on our shelves or right next to us.

That’s not entirely correct. Parts of the NT weren’t written for many decades after Christ’s death. Plus, there were many false and non-inspired writings in addition to those that ultimately became part of what we know as the “Bible.”

 

[EDB]

Singinbeauty:

First of all, no where did I say I simply can dismiss whatever the pastor teaches. But I do have the right to delve into what he says and preaches and determine whether I believe it was from God or not.

Next, how do you think that the first ‘church’ met? They met in eachother’s houses not a big building. They discussed scripture and the letters Peter and Paul wrote them. They worshipped God and would spend hours doing so. They did not meet on Sunday in the local cathedral that is so overly ornate and gawdy(sp?) in some places. And listen to someone drone on about what they SHOULD believe blindly - then stand then sit then stand again - while holding a piece of jewlery - and pray to Mary for intercession. Again, there are certain practices I don’t understand so maybe it will come into light later…

I just wanted to say that statements like this makes Cathlics very angry. It may not be what you intended, but is comes off as self-righteous and condescending. If you do not understand something, please don’t make blankets statements - ask your question in a sincere and non-judgmental way. I stand when the Gospels are read because it is the word of God and I wish to show attention and reverence for his word. I do not hold pieces of jewelry during Mass - although I do wear a necklace watch and earrings most Sundays. The remark about Mary - personally makes me feel like I should brace myself for the triade against worshipping Mary, yada, yada yada.
If you sincerely want information, please ask simple questions without the accusations attached!

 

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

And there is nothing wrong with church hierarchy… There are those who know WAY more than I do because they have studied it more than me. But I have the right to question what they say and to test it for myself.

So your reservations about the Catholic hierarchy is that the teachings given to us through our hierarchy are immovable, set truths and you believe that church hierarchy should offer not truths but suggestions? Am I getting that right?

 

[scylla]

That was a good answer on how the Bible existed, that is something we can address.

I would look at history and see why the Bible was created. There were disputes on which writings were scripture and what wasn’t. They needed to decide which scripture was appropriate to be used at Mass. I would look up the Council of Carthage to get a little background on this. You can google it, or look it up with wikipedia. that way you can get non-catholic perspective. (I try to do this as I have had people at my old church just say this is Catholic lies, Some of them dislike the Catholic Church a little bit.)

You can also look up Pope Damasus and Saint Jerome. The Bible was then given to the world by the Catholic Church. It was preserved and hand copied by the Church. It is really pretty interesting to look at the history of the Bible.

God Bless
Scylla

Congrats over 20 posts in one day, pretty good for being new here!

 

[Singinbeauty]

quote=Robert in SD You said that everything should be taken with a grain of salt and that ultimately it is personal experience that guides your interpretation. Does this not mean that ultimately you make the decision as to what is true and what is not true, trusting int he Holy Spirit to be there to guide your discernment of doctrine?
[/quote]

But that doesn’t mean that I can SIMPLY dismiss it… it takes contemplation, soul searching, prayer, and study to come to the conclusion that I don’t agree. Never did I say I simply dismiss it.

(2) I know how the first churches met. In small groups, and in secret during times of persecution. It is the tradition practiced at those early meetings from which the liturgy of the mass arises. The breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup is the center of the mass. Catholics believe and have always believed that God is Real and Present during the mass. The Catholic Church also spends time with the word of God in the mass -every week. And they spend time in mass in worship of God just as the early church did. It is not the empty and hollow ritual you seem to think it is. And it is entirely consistent with the early church. (Read Cardinal Newman - a protestant convert to the Catholic Church who wrote that to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.)

And none of this is different from the services I attend. God and Jesus are the center of our worship. They are there with us as we worship and learn about who we are through them. We study the bible.

(3) Cathedrals came later - and arose from the need to worship and give glory to God. Some Cathedrals are gaudy (or Guadi’ if you are in Barcelona) while others are beautiful. It’s all a matter of taste I suppose. It has nothing to do with doctrinal truth.

But my point was that none of the churches, no matter the denomination, ‘worship’ or ‘meet’ as the early church did. We have small (or cell) groups in my church that meet outside the regular church to delve into scripture further though.

(4) Catholics are not asked to believe “blindly.” You are laboring under a common misperception of the Catholic faith to the extent you think one must set aside reason to be Catholic.

Someone stated above that they appreciate having someone tell them what to believe. This is blind faith to me…

(5) Yes. We pray to Mary and all the saints, asking for their intercessory prayers to God on our behalf. But that is not the focus of the Mass, which is entirely Christ centered. The practice or prayer to the saints dates back to the very early Church and has Scriptural support.

I don’t understand this practice but it is to be reserved for another thread and time…

(6) What do you mean by “piece of jewelry.” If you mean a rosary, that prayer is not part of the Mass, but it is a beautiful contemplative prayer focusing primarily upon the life and ministry of Christ. Rosary beads are used to keep track of the meditations, but the beads themselves are not necessary for the prayer, nor are they required at mass. (If you meant something else by “jewelry” then please explain.)

Nope, that is what I meant. I have nothing really against this but it’s one of the only things I know about the catholic faith so I threw that in there…

If you have specific questions about any of these, this is certainly the forum to ask, but I suggest separate threads for the discreet questions you’ve raised.

And they will be… this thread has been busy with people asking questions so I am trying to answer them to the best of my ability, but I am trying to stear clear of asking those specific question HERE because it is not conducive with the purpose of this thread…

 

[yochumjy]

I believe that God through the Holy Spirit will bring to light anything that is ‘confused’. As with anyone. If your priest told you that God said it was ok to molest little boys would you believe him because he is a priest or would you test that against what you read in the bible?

Do I test an “individuals” opinion? Yes. Do I test the church’s opinion? Not really, I try to reconcile it in my mind and understand it. Note that the statements made by the Pope/Magisterium are only infallible on matters of faith and morals when given in the proper format. There are always things to work through and understand, but if I read the bible and thought that abortion was okay and the church said no, then I would understand why they say that and adhere to that. I did not mean to mock you, but the logical conclusion you are making is that you are infallible on doctrine, since all you have to do is ask the holy spirit and you get the answer. Sorry, but that just doesn’t compute.

Singinbeauty:

Are you saying that the burning of people at the stake for heresy just because they questioned the ‘church’ and it’s teachings was not led by the catholic church? Hmmmmm that’s news to me since it was directed by the leaders of the catholic church. shrug

I am assuming you are talking about the Spanish Inquisition, one of the more famous ones… The pope did help get it started, but after that it was really controlled by the leaders of the country. I know that the popular viewpoint is to bash the Catholic church over it, but there are other viewpoints out there. If you study that time in history, you will get a more realistic and fair viewpoint.

please note a certain sarcasm in this next comment So you are saying that you are content in being a mindless drone when it comes to your salvation and the relationship you hold with God? Let someone else tell you who God is? Ok, it’s up to you… shrug

Whether you like it or not, someone else is always telling you who God is. That bible you read isn’t in the original language, it was translated from another language. You are completely dependant on the wording. All the books in the NT were decided by the Catholic church. God reveals himself through many ways. Are you saying that God has completely revealed himself through your own personal prayer? I’m not saying that it couldn’t happen, after all that is how Jesus knew the Father… If a pastor has a viewpoint that you agree with, does that mean it has to be correct? Oh, and for the record, the first two quotes were from me, the third was not…

 

[Singinbeauty]

EDB:

I just wanted to say that statements like this makes Cathlics very angry. It may not be what you intended, but is comes off as self-righteous and condescending. If you do not understand something, please don’t make blankets statements - ask your question in a sincere and non-judgmental way. I stand when the Gospels are read because it is the word of God and I wish to show attention and reverence for his word. I do not hold pieces of jewelry during Mass - although I do wear a necklace watch and earrings most Sundays. The remark about Mary - personally makes me feel like I should brace myself for the triade against worshipping Mary, yada, yada yada.
If you sincerely want information, please ask simple questions without the accusations attached!

I would have to say please remind some of your catholic brothers and sisters (not all ) of this ‘warning’…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Eden:

So your reservations about the Catholic hierarchy is that the teachings given to us through our hierarchy are immovable, set truths and you believe that church hierarchy should offer not truths but suggestions? Am I getting that right?

No, the church offers the truths of the bible as presented to them. I, sigh, just reserve the right to test it before I accept it…

 

[Eden]

Here is a hint as to the answer to Scylla’s question: ``We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all’’ - Martin Luther - Commentary on St. John