Catholics... Just As Bad As Protestants?

[Singinbeauty]

What you wrongly perceive as a “wounded victim” attitude is actually an angry and indignant yet restrained response to the lies and hatred and drivel spewed by so called christians…

RESTRAINED? Restrained? Wow, I would hate to see you UN-restrained. You seem to want to LUMP me in with every protestant you have ever met.

Just to fill you in on where I am in life, I am a “senior citizen” who was raised in the south…and have put up with this nonsense all of my life…so don’t make the mistake of expecting me to soft pedal the issue.

So you hate protestants… I get it. Boy will your face be red when we all get to Heaven and some girl comes to give you a hug and says “Hi, remember me… I am Singinbeauty!”

If you think I am harsh, challenge me on issues regarding my faith.

I see you are here for battle… You probably have your bible open and ready for the debate… Sorry to disappoint you but that is not what I am here for. I am here to learn. If I have a question for you I will ask! Thanx for offering your assistance!

I sincerely hope that you truly listen to the Holy Ghost and truly allow yourself to be guided by Him to find the real truth.

As I have searched and searched and searched some more, I really do believe and feel I have found the REAL truth. I love God with all my heart, I believe Jesus died for me on the cross so that I may live, and I believe that the Holy Spirit resides in me showing me how to follow God’s will to my fullest. While I don’t know EVERYTHING I believe that God will show me what I need to know as time goes on. I am forever a student and will be learning until the day I join God in Heaven and probably beyond that. But thank you for your concern. I will pray that God shows you some compassion for your protestant brothers and sisters.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I think this discussion has degenerated to the point where my involvement is no longer productive. I’ll leave at this point. It was a good discussion while it lasted.

Good luck on your journey Singinbeauty. May you find the answers you seek.

 

[RobHom]

Actually SinginBeauty, there is no anger, hatred or pain. I have no problem with Protestants…in general…shucks, some of my best friends are Protestants . I have friends who are Baptist, SBC, Anglican, Evangelicals, Jews, Hindus…and even know a Buddhist or two. I guage or judge people for who they are, not by their religion.

I didn’t come here to do battle…I have far better things to do, more enjoyable. What I have a problem with is this: People who are non-Catholics that come to these sites or others…and run the same tired “old saws”. I’m sorry, but it gets more than tiring. It tends to foster a bit of insensitivity…and a tendency to consider being pre-emptive.

I can honestly tell you that for every “argument” or “justification” that a non-Catholic evangelical can generate to “prove a Catholic belief wrong”…there are several that scripturally prove us correct.

If you wish to try to bridge a gap, I commend you for your desire, and I will pray for your success. You have chosen a massive and even herculean task…but if you feel that is your mission, go for it!!

I guess one of the most frustrating things I have ever seen is the pedantic nonsense that goes on between the christian religions over these theological issues…its often over such minutiae that God gets left out of the equation all together… There is a thread in these forums that questions with “great wonderment” why Lutherans and Catholics can’t get together…and it has about 158 posts…and it has gotten down to the point where they are about to discuss the punctuation and its ramifications

But not a one of them has pointed this out, on either side: And that is the fact that the WELS the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod has in fact as a tenet of their faith…the belief that the Pope is the very AntiChrist spoken of in the Bible! For proof of this, go to this link:

wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?

Then click on “Faith”, then "Beliefs, then “Doctrinal Statements”, then “Statement on the AntiChrist”.

I’m sorry I can’t post the actual link, but its a super long one that probably won’t fit here…

But at the bottom line…it to me is one of the single greatest reasons why many Lutherans and Catholics will never see eye to eye.

I don’t even dislike Lutheran’s, I’ve got in-laws who are Lutherans, and they are good people and we get along fine. But then, we never discuss religion, which may be a good thing. But I like them, and consider them good people.

 

[Singinbeauty]

See, I liked that post!

Thank you for your response… I will be on the lookout for ya when more questions arise…

Have a good day!

 

[Philthy]

Hi Singin!

Singinbeauty:
I never said I disagree with what the SCRIPTURE teaches… Where did you get that??? I said I may disagree with the approach that the pastor takes with the scriptures.

Honestly now. This is the most silly statement of the entire thread. What is the difference between disagreeing on “the approach the pastor takes with the scriptures” with a disagreement of what each of you believes scripture is teaching? You seemed to have dodged the question for the second time now…

Kim then followed up with “How do you know who is being led by the Holy Spirit, you or your pastor?” and you replied…

Singinbeauty:
It is a quandry isn’t it. All I can know is what I feel and hear in my heart. That’s all I can go off of.

\

All you can know is what you feel and hear in your heart? That is your ultimate authority? You believe that to be scriptural?

Its more than a quandry, its an unresolvable dilemma. The reason it is unresolvable is because each of you, under the pretext of being guided by the holy Spirit, will always follow your own heart and feelings to the exclusion of all else, and will not be capable of unity. This is a fundamentally flawed concept of the body of Christ - my personal revelations supercede everyone elses. This was a problem during Christs time and in the early churches as well. What did Christ tell the people? Do as they say, but not as they do because they hold the authority - does that even sound vaguely familiar? And what did St Peter tell those raucous younger members who had their own agenda? 1Peter 5:5-6 “Likewise you younger members be subject to the presbyters…clothe yourselves with humility…under the mighty hand of God that He may exalt you in due time.” Your contention that your heart is “all you can go off of” is the best attempt at an answer and there may be very rare circumstances where it would apply, but it is practically insufficient in general, scripturally unsubstantiated, and historically heretical.

Singinbeauty:
I believe that the Holy Spirit is leading me when I may disagree with something that is being taught
Not only that, but you believe the Spirit is not guiding the other person, regardless of what the history of Christianity has said.

Singinbeauty:
The Holy Spirit does convict me when my pastor speaks on something in my life that I may be doing that isn’t so good for my walk. I really don’t understand why I have to keep repeating myself over and over again on this issue. Is it because you don’t trust the Holy Spirit to speak to you when you may have a conflict with what the priest is saying or is it that the words I am speaking need to be said in a different manner?
Let me start off with a disclaimer: I can’t speak for anyone but myself. I think it’s repeated over and over because your answer is a tough one to swallow: you are your own final authority on matters of faith and morals. This would be somewhat acceptable to us IF we were not confronted with others making precisely the same claim who differ significantly on BASICS of the faith. And we are left wondering,“Is it possible for God to conflict himself?” And we know the answer:

“God is not man that he should speak falsely, nor human that He should change his mind…” So we are left with the difficult realization that some of what you are saying is not full Truth. It’s difficult because you seem like such a nice person geuinely trying to follow Jesus, so we like you and don’t want to turn you away, yet we have an obligation to speak the truth as we see it, as it has been historically seen, as Scripture and the Church testify to and as it remains today.

Peace-

Phil

 

[Singinbeauty]

I guess there may be a breakdown in communication somewhere… It frustrating to say the least. sigh Did you read my example that I wrote? Would you have just taken what that pastor said without question? Would you have said 'Since he is the pastor of the church I guess he knows what he is talking about and that nagging feeling in my stomach needs to hush ‘cause he is a pastor therefore the Holy Spirit will talk to him and give him the right answers but not me.’? I think that if it is TRULY the Holy Spirit talking to you it will not contradict the bible or God. Does this make sense? What I believe has not contradicted the bible as of yet. It’s not that I go out of my way to disagree with a pastor or priest just so that I can show how right I am but if I feel that pit in my stomach start to turn telling me that this is not right I am going to listen to it because I believe that that is the Holy Spirit. And contrary to what you THINK may have happened I have not disagree’d with anyone, really, but that one pastor. It’s not like it’s an everyday occurance.

Philthy:

Singinbeauty:

I never said I disagree with what the SCRIPTURE teaches… Where did you get that??? I said I may disagree with the approach that the pastor takes with the scriptures.

Honestly now. This is the most silly statement of the entire thread. What is the difference between disagreeing on “the approach the pastor takes with the scriptures” with a disagreement of what each of you believes scripture is teaching? You seemed to have dodged the question for the second time now…

There is a HUGE difference because the guy at the pulpit may not have the correct interpretation of the scriptures but that doesn’t make the SCRIPTURES wrong it makes the PASTOR wrong. See the difference? See how HUGE that difference is?

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Singinbeauty:

There is a HUGE difference because the guy at the pulpit may not have the correct interpretation of the scriptures but that doesn’t make the SCRIPTURES wrong it makes the PASTOR wrong. See the difference? See how HUGE that difference is?

But, the pastor is just going by what he feels and hears in his heart, right? How can he be wrong?

How can he be any more wrong than you are, or vice-versa?

Actually, I’m assuming that a pastor would have many more years’ experience in interpreting scripture than most of his congregation. He’s probably got a solid education in geography, history, languages and the sociology of New Testament times.

So, really, isn’t he in a much better position than most of his congregation to interpret scripture?

 

[Singinbeauty]

I am really tired of this subject… But I will keep answering questions because, and I know I have said this a bizillion times, I think there may have been a breakdown in communication.

I don’t know where I said that I am always right and he (the pastor) is always wrong. Get that out of your heads, it is not what I am saying. I don’t know where I said I know more than the pastor. Also get that out of your heads, it’s not what I am saying.

I do not just decide right there on the spot that I don’t agree with what he is teaching if that were to ever arise… Again, not a daily occurance. If I feel like this goes against what I believe, as it did with that pastor in my example (which is a true story by the way), I will first consult my bible then a trusted christian but most of all I will consult God through the Holy Spirit. If I still am weary of it I will look it up on the internet through trusted sites I have bookmarked. There is a reason why you question things and I believe that that is the Holy Spirit speaking to you about false beliefs being planted in your head. If you were to walk into a church that was preaching that people of other races were evil and needed to be distroyed would you accept it as gospel just because the guy saying it was a preacher? NO. Because it goes against what the bible teaches.

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Please do not take a single, solitary word of this as an attack in any way, because there is nothing of an attack intended. I’m just asking some questions that I’ve had along the way.

Singinbeauty:

I don’t know where I said that I am always right and he (the pastor) is always wrong. Get that out of your heads, it is not what I am saying.

I don’t think anyone here is laboring under that impression. I’m only referring to those instances in which you DO disagree with your pastor.

Certainly they won’t happen every week, but as you grow in Christian faith and educate yourself, it’s almost certain to happen more and more frequently.

What will you do, then? How do you decide who’s right, between you, assuming that he has the experience and the education that I spoke of earlier? I don’t know and I’m not going to judge.

But, by what authority do you (or does anyone) interpret scripture? When a pastor is teaching contrary to your beliefs, you have to decide whether it’s a teaching that you can live with or if it’s a big enough issue that you need to leave and find a church that fits you better.

Assume for a minute that you try many churches in your Christian life - ten years from now, you finally find one that teaches everything that you believe according to your interpretation of the Bible. You might quibble with a couple of “minor” points, but you know what all the other churches are teaching and they’re all at odds with what you believe on major points, so you are happy in your new church and life is good.

But then one day, you are reading the Bible and you suddenly understand something basic and vital to Christianity in a whole new light.

There is not a single other protestant church left that believes your same combination of beliefs. What will you do?

Again, I don’t know and I’m not going to judge. But, I do think that you’re edging toward some very important questions and I hope you find answers.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I don’t know how to answer this line of questioning anymore. sigh Given the example that I provided what would you have done? Would you just have accepted that even though all of the study, prayer, and fellowship with other christians has taught you otherwise?

 

[Philthy]

Singinbeauty:

I guess there may be a breakdown in communication somewhere… It frustrating to say the least. sigh Did you read my example that I wrote? Would you have just taken what that pastor said without question? Would you have said 'Since he is the pastor of the church I guess he knows what he is talking about and that nagging feeling in my stomach needs to hush ‘cause he is a pastor therefore the Holy Spirit will talk to him and give him the right answers but not me.’? I think that if it is TRULY the Holy Spirit talking to you it will not contradict the bible or God. Does this make sense? What I believe has not contradicted the bible as of yet.

Oh I get it alright - your interpretation of “what Scipture says” hasn’t contradicted what you believe the bible says. Wanna know why they don’t contradict? Because they are exactly the same thing! Both your opinion! The question which you don’t seem to appreciate is “What is the difference between your interpretation of Scripture and the intended meaning of the original authors of Scripture?” Please stop and think about that question!
For example, John quoted Jesus as saying:“For my FLESH is real food… and my BLOOD real drink.” Now what does Scripture SAY here? It says christs FLESH is REAL FOOD. Is that also your “interpretation”? That Christs flesh is REAL FOOD? No, you “interpret” what scripture MEANS (different than what it says) to be something different. You substitue some meaning for flesh and you symbolize the meaning of real food. And what you end up with is your interpretation - possibly consistent with Scriptures original intended meaning, possibly not. All I can say is that St Ignatious - who travelled with John for 20 years or so, and who died for his allegience to Christ, taught that the Eucharist was the actual body of Christ - just like He said. The early Christians are UNANIMOUS on this point. But your system, as you have presented it, is to ignore all this and go with your gut feeling.

Singinbeauty:

There is a HUGE difference because the guy at the pulpit may not have the correct interpretation of the scriptures but that doesn’t make the SCRIPTURES wrong it makes the PASTOR wrong. See the difference? See how HUGE that difference is?

Yes we are all well aware of the difference between the actual meaning of Scripture and an individuals interpretation of Scripture. The former is inerrant, the latter is fallible. We understand that perfectly and now that we realize that you do also there is only one other thing to point out: your (and mine) interpretatio of Scripture also falls into the latter category: fallible. That seems to be the reality you are having trouble coming to grips with.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

Singinbeauty:

I don’t know how to answer this line of questioning anymore. sigh Given the example that I provided what would you have done? Would you just have accepted that even though all of the study, prayer, and fellowship with other christians has taught you otherwise?

I agree with what you did! I would have done exactly what you did - except that I would never have been there in the first place - but that isn’t the point. The point is how do you determine the original intent of the holy Spirit as He inspired the original authors of Scripture? By what authority do you, or the pastor, or anyone else claim to have that knowledge?

Relentless,

Phil

 

[RobHom]

Singinbeauty:

I don’t know how to answer this line of questioning anymore. sigh Given the example that I provided what would you have done? Would you just have accepted that even though all of the study, prayer, and fellowship with other christians has taught you otherwise?

I think that I can answer your question… One major difference between Catholicism and other denominations, including non-denominationals…is that you can go from Parish to Parish on Sunday, or any given day…and you will get the exact same message, without a personal “twist” to it. And the reason for that is this: Priests do not individually interpret the scriptures… Oh, they like you and I can, however, when it comes to “preaching the word of God”…there is a uniformity of thought regarding scriptures. Why is this? Because there is 2000 years of history and research behind the teachings of the Church. And as a result of this…you do not experience the differing opinions from cleric to cleric. If, and this is a pretty big if…it were to happen that a priest were to teach something contrary to scriptures…we would know it pretty quickly and there would be a torrent of notices to the Bishop regarding this and it would be investigated and handles. Would we accept it: NO. And much of the reason is because we as Catholics know that we possess “free will” and we are capable of making decisions regarding our religious lives even to the point of salvation.

 

[Singinbeauty]

And much of the reason is because we as Catholics know that we possess “free will” and we are capable of making decisions regarding our religious lives even to the point of salvation.

This sounds a lot like what I was trying to convey… Thank you!

 

[Prometheus1974]

Dear Singin’ Beauty,

Hi! This is my first post here. I thought I would start by welcoming you here, then realized it should be the other way 'round.

I have read this thread and am quite impressed by your tone. I don’t think you have been intentionally offensive in any way - yeah we do take statements about “jewelry” and “believing blindly” badly, because many of the posters, especially Catholics who have come to their faith from non-Catholic backgrounds have done so after a long, arduous, and intellectually rigorous process. None of these started the process “believing blindly”… Now that’s a charge you could only level at a cradle Catholic like me.

Singinbeauty:

His main focus was on his congregation giving money I have seen pics of his house, and he had bodyguards who looked like secret service personnel greet him at the door to escort him in. He taught his congregation, christians and non-christians alike, that if you give money to the church you will no longer have to worry about money… in fact you will become rich (worldly rich mind you) beyond your imagination. When asking for donations from the congregation for a women’s shelter they were building he asked that the furniture be brand new, not used. I was so sad when I left because he did an alter call and a ton of people came up and accepted Christ… Yay for the people because they have found Him but I wonder what kind of hardships they will face and be discouraged because a pastor told them that God will make them materially rich. shrug

So you see, I did disagree with a pastor just as I disagree with your priests because of some of the teachings make no sense to me. I don’t see myself turning catholic anytime soon but I am here to learn and to squelch some beliefs I have had.

Two comments:

First, in a later post you asked how would we respond to such a pastor if it were a priest - would we believe blindly in what he is saying? Absolutely not. I have a very rigorous and logical (IMHO) method to test what he is preaching:

• is it in conformity with the doctrines of the Catholic Church?
• is it in conformity with what the popes have taught in concert with the bishops today and in the past, dating to the earliest times of the Church
• is it in conformity with the teachings and traditions of Jesus, the apostles, the early church fathers, and their successors?
• is it in conformity with sacred scripture as interpreted by the above?

If the answer to all of these is not YES then I have a problem with what the pastor/priest is teaching. And indeed it is in this way that we are able to identify priests who are preaching things that are incorrect. Yes, this certainly does happen with priests. Never has with the pope.

Note that three things don’t matter to me:

• Whether the teaching makes sense to me. I am a (sometimes very) ignorant human being. I know that my intelligence is very limited - 5 years at university studying Math and Physics is a real lesson in humility. My thesis was on quantum field theory. I can honestly tell you that a lot of it makes ABSOULUTELY no sense to me. That doesn’t make it any less TRUE, only shows where I am limited.
• Pics of his house, bodyguards. He may be an avaricious sinner, but that does not mean what he teaches is wrong. If the Devil told me to love my neighbour that would not make it a sin.
• How I feel about his teaching. If what he teaches makes me uncomfortable, that may be the Holy Spirit telling me its wrong. Or it may be my reaction to hearing something I don’t want to hear. Or it may be indigestion.

Notice that “a ton of people came up and accepted Christ”… would it surprise you to know that they are as convinced that they are inspired by the Holy Spirit as you are? Would it surprise you that they believe their relationship to Jesus is as close or closer than yours is? Why is the Holy Spirit misleading them in all sincerity? And if it is not the HS that is misleading them, how do you know that is what is leading you? Because of the way you feel? Do you just know? Then which one of you right? (They also just know)

Secondly:

Consider two teachings of Jesus from scripture:

1. “If your eye causes you to sin, tear it out.”
2. “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you can not have life through me.”

Which of these do you take literally (if any) and why?

I have 2000 years of consistant scriptural teaching and tradition dating back to the time of the Apostles and early church fathers that Christians and Catholics treated only (2) as literal, as in the sense of the Real Presence. That is how I know what these two verses really mean - the Holy Spirit has consistenly intepreted them one way in the Catholic Church since the time of Jesus. Doesn’t that seem more convincing than a feeling?

Is it based on a feeling that you might risk eternal damnation for the sake of your eye or hand?

Gotta run. God bless!

 

[kim_wilson]

Poor Beauty—you had no idea what you were in for when you started this thread! Dear Beauty—I hope you haven’t taken anything we’ve said as a criticism or attack. Many of us have had to grapple with some of the issues you brought up—and many of us worked through those issues and became Catholic! Godspeed you on your spiritual journey!!