Catholics lack common sense.

[wanner47]

God works on one heart at a time; so there is no “us”. It is you and it is me. In your world I am “anti-Catholic” and in your world you are “Catholic”. The reality is I have nothing against a single Catholic person; I have done business with Catholics, like painting my house for example - I will not discriminate because I disagree with one’s theology, I do have problems with the doctrines, which I believe have the same effect as the Pharisees did on the Jewish converts. I think God is personally repulsed by the idea of someone eating another humans flesh as He made it known throughout the Bible.

But we’re not eating another human’s flesh. We’re eating the flesh of God Incarnate.

Where does it say in the Bible that God is repulsed by the idea of someone eating His own flesh?

But really, Timothy, my point is that I can defend my interpretation just as much as you can defend yours. How do we know whose interpretation is the correct one, if we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

But we’re not eating another human’s flesh. We’re eating the flesh of God Incarnate.

Where does it say in the Bible that God is repulsed by the idea of someone eating His own flesh?

But really, Timothy, my point is that I can defend my interpretation just as much as you can defend yours. How do we know whose interpretation is the correct one, if we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit?

You are getting back to the us and the the proving of a negative. I can only speak for myself; I cannot speak for you. The Bible tells me that I will know with certainty if I am obedient to His word. The Bible tells me that I cannot do a thing on my own to merit favor with God and I believe it. The Bible tells me that on the day i believed I was sealed with the Spirit of Promise and i believe it. The Bible tells me that He who began a good work in me will also complete it and I believe Him. The Bible says I am sanctified, or set apart, I am set apart (positionally)and I am being set apart (Growing in Christ) and I will be set apart (glorified with Him) and I believe Him. When Jesus says no one can snatch one out of the Fathers hand, then I believe Him.

As far as defending your interpretation, it still does not change what the truth is; we see this throughout all of church history and even more prevalent today. God only chooses a remnant of those who claim His name because “actions do speak louder than words”. If I had to guess on the size of that remnant I would say 1 in 10 people that make a profession of faith in God are actually saved, which would account for all the cults and isms and schisms and what ever else manner of teaching is out there.

At least with the Catholic family you all are among the more consistent in your faith, but not without a slew of problems as well between the cafeteria variety and the dissenter that remain under the “Catholic Umbrella”. All that is a human nature thing, that is why god only works at a single heart at a time as the Bible clearly teaches us.

Got to run for the night; i hope we can carry on soon, i don’t have the opportunity to log on as often as I would like to.

Good night and God bless.
Timothy

 

[wanner47]

It’s not “proving a negative,” Timothy. It’s a very simple question.

How do we know whose interpretation is the correct one, if we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Did you see how you made a clear and simple statement from the Lord and changed it to fit your theology. What did He say, “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” then the people that left; are the same people that took it as eating flesh; you have it completely backwards; just look at the plain words Jesus said. Two things “spirit” & “life” are the positive and the negative “flesh profits nothing”. Jesus left no doubt about how He spoke and Peter confirmed “to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” What were the words? Spirit and life. I don’t see how it can be any clearer that that; those who believed He spoke of eating the flesh, which repulsed the Jews for good reason left and the one that were the “called” understood and stayed. As I said you have it completely backwards and why i do not know; Jesus is so clear.

Slow down there before you mutilate other scriptures, until you can first confirm that your first interpretation of a metaphorical Spirit exists anywhere in sacred scripture? which it does not, unless you can pull a rabbit out of your hat? IF your 21st century interpretation of John 6:63 interprets Spirit to mean something Metaphorical, or symbolic you have just entered into heresy. How you can change Jesus words to a metaphor when he specifically states “This IS my body” This IS my blood". You are introducing a late 21st century interpretation of scripture. NO one in all of Christendom before the protestant movement invented Sola Scriptura self interpretation ever taught or believed what you falsely claim Jesus is teaching about a symbolic Spirit.

Would you like proof that the first early Christians believed as Catholics do today from their own writings and testimony that Jesus was truly speaking literally about his body and blood not symbolically?

Can you name one Saint, or Christian from antiquity that believed the way you do about a symbolic spirit? Or that Jesus was talking metaphorically about his body and blood?

Spirit from biblical speech is never to be taken metaphorically or symbolically as your false interpretation of the Spirit does. Making your belief from a real presence of Jesus Christ to a symbolic Jesus that never existed.

Your interpretation of a metaphorical spirit does not and never existed in all of Christendom until the Protestant movement invented the man made theology of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide and left there rock foundation from Catholicism from which Jesus himself founded.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

But really, Timothy, my point is that I can defend my interpretation just as much as you can defend yours. How do we know whose interpretation is the correct one, if we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit?

Timothy just confirmed to me that Spirit is a metaphor speech from Jesus words to indicate a symbolic spirit? How can a metaphorical spirit give a correct interpretation of God’s word when a metaphorical or symbolic spirit does not exist?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t think you understand the OT versus quoted and what God said. Jesus always set the example, as the perfect leader that he is. The example he gave will never be contrary to His word nor was it; as the flesh and blood speaks of or symbolizes the sacrifice He would do on behalf of the called in Christ in just a short time from the time He instituted the ordinance, which is strictly spiritual and not literal as some presume in error. John 6:63 is a real good example between Jesus speaking in a metaphoric sense, but in verse 63 clarifying the manner, which was spiritual for the flesh profits nothing, in which He spoke. The unbelievers walked away because they took Him literally and the “called” stayed and understood as the apostle Peter clerly stated a few verses later. (You have the words of life)

Common sense tells us He spoke of many literal things in a figurative way to emphasize a spiritual truth; this is one reason He spoke in parables. For those that believe they understand and for those that don’t, they cannot.

I guess in some ways the question might be does it matter? I think it does and I don’t think it is much of a mystery either.

When Jesus spoke in parables he told the disciples “I give you a parable”. When Jesus instituted the Eucharist in his body and blood he never once stated to his disciples that he was speaking a parable, figuratively or metaphorically this interjection of Jesus Words are antichrist.

What we have here is a subject dealing with a mystery from God that is revealed in the Spirit, not the flesh. Catholics take the position of the eternal Spirit for it is the Spirit that reveals these mysteries of God. The natural person who is of the flesh, walks away from Jesus because these are not of the Spirit they are of the flesh, and believe that Jesus is speaking of cannibalism as you have confirmed here that if Jesus spoke literally it would mean cannibalism. When God created you, God created you from dust and water, but when God gave life to your natural body, GOD BREATHED (LIFE) HIS SPIRIT INTO YOU.

God does not change. In the New Covenant which is the fulfillment of the natural law (flesh) but of the Spirit which exceeds the natural law because the Spirit fulfills the flesh or natural law. Catholics are a new creation in Jesus, we are now children of the living God by virtue of our sacramental baptism. The Eucharist is for the Children of God, the Eucharist is not for the unbelievers. When Jesus speaks to the bread and wine, just as God spoke creation into existence, the Spirit is what changes the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus by his ETERNAL WORD, while to the flesh (natural person) is of no avail because to our souls this is (the bread from heaven) our eternal food that promises the believer “eternal life”, why? because God says it, and because God’s WILL promises eternal life for whomever eats his body and drinks his blood.

The ancient church was wise to label this miracle the blessed sacrament. Because it eliminates all the heretical teachings of cannibalism and a symbolic Jesus.

When God freed the slaves, what did they have to do so that the angel of death could passover them? They MUST consume eat the lamb and then God makes this “rememberance” to be made perpetually “always” never to end.

Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. We in the new covenant in his blood, must consume the Lambs body (Jesus himself) in order to passover from death into eternal life. God does not change, as your interpretation leads one astray to an ever changing god. Jesus fulfills the Old testament passover perpetual law in himself “once and for all”. And the people of God must still eat of the “paschal” lambs flesh which is Jesus himself present in the “rememberance of him” in the blessed sacrament of the Eucharist which becomes Jesus body, blood soul and divinity from which we are partakers (see 2Peter 1:4)

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You are getting back to the us and the the proving of a negative. I can only speak for myself; I cannot speak for you. The Bible tells me that I will know with certainty if I am obedient to His word. The Bible tells me that I cannot do a thing on my own to merit favor with God and I believe it. The Bible tells me that on the day i believed I was sealed with the Spirit of Promise and i believe it. The Bible tells me that He who began a good work in me will also complete it and I believe Him. The Bible says I am sanctified, or set apart, I am set apart (positionally)and I am being set apart (Growing in Christ) and I will be set apart (glorified with Him) and I believe Him. When Jesus says no one can snatch one out of the Fathers hand, then I believe Him.

Gabriel of 12;
The bible attached a curse to those who dont discern the body and blood of the lord in the bread and wine. What does the following scripture from the bible tell you Timothy Piper? can you please interpret St. Pauls teaching on his Catholic belief in the true presence of Jesus body and blood in the bread and wine?

1Corinthians 11:23
11 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
**For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12
28
A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself. **

How can the bible place a curse on a symbolic or metaphorical Jesus in a simple bread and grape Juice?

Scriptures teaches and supports the Catholic faith of a real True presence of Jesus body,blood in the Eucharistic bread and wine from Genesis to the Gospels through to Revelations, not a metaphorical or a symbolic Jesus.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

It’s not “proving a negative,” Timothy. It’s a very simple question.

How do we know whose interpretation is the correct one, if we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit?

Wanner,

You said in the previous post the following: “Where does it say in the Bible that God is repulsed by the idea of someone eating His own flesh?” That is asking to prove a statement that is already explicit, but then you ask to get specific and say "where does it say don’t eat God? Where does it say to not eat David or Peter or where does it say to eat God? Give me a break.

How do we know, which interpretation is correct? I can’t answer in a way that would satisfy you; so i would say that God verifies Himself and in view of that; He said to do it in remembrance of the penalty I paid on your behalf that you may have life. Eating a piece of flesh is never spoken in Scripture of saving anyone and in the sense that it is raw and spattered with blood; it would be contrary to His teaching throughout Scripture. However He is the Way, the truth and the Life, he is the Door, the Shepherd and these are all spiritual senses; not of the literal use of the object; therefore based on what God has said I conclude that he spoke of His flesh and blood in a spiritual sense, meaning when we partake of the bread and the cup we are symbolically remembering and being thankful for His sacrifice on the sinners behalf, which was to never be repeated nor reinacted.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Slow down there before you mutilate other scriptures, until you can first confirm that your first interpretation of a metaphorical Spirit exists anywhere in sacred scripture? which it does not, unless you can pull a rabbit out of your hat? IF your 21st century interpretation of John 6:63 interprets Spirit to mean something Metaphorical, or symbolic you have just entered into heresy. How you can change Jesus words to a metaphor when he specifically states “This IS my body” This IS my blood". You are introducing a late 21st century interpretation of scripture. NO one in all of Christendom before the protestant movement invented Sola Scriptura self interpretation ever taught or believed what you falsely claim Jesus is teaching about a symbolic Spirit.

Would you like proof that the first early Christians believed as Catholics do today from their own writings and testimony that Jesus was truly speaking literally about his body and blood not symbolically?

Can you name one Saint, or Christian from antiquity that believed the way you do about a symbolic spirit? Or that Jesus was talking metaphorically about his body and blood?

Spirit from biblical speech is never to be taken metaphorically or symbolically as your false interpretation of the Spirit does. Making your belief from a real presence of Jesus Christ to a symbolic Jesus that never existed.

Your interpretation of a metaphorical spirit does not and never existed in all of Christendom until the Protestant movement invented the man made theology of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide and left there rock foundation from Catholicism from which Jesus himself founded.

Peace be with you

I can’t debate with ignorance of Scripture, so i 'll give you some thought to consider about metaphores in relation to Jesus.

Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Gate (John 10:9)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)
and so on and so on, literal objects to show a spiritual reality.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

*after he had given thanks, broke it and *

said,** “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” **
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
**For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12
28
A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself. **

How can the bible place a curse on a symbolic or metaphorical Jesus in a simple bread and grape Juice?

Scriptures teaches and supports the Catholic faith of a real True presence of Jesus body,blood in the Eucharistic bread and wine from Genesis to the Gospels through to Revelations, not a metaphorical or a symbolic Jesus.

The “words, what He said” are spirit and life; the flesh profits NOTHING. The only transubstaniation ever shown in the NT is with John, Peter and James and had nothing to do with turning an object into a person. That is added and man-made transubstantiation IMO and according to the whole of Scripture. Looking at the funace of fire in Daniel 3 is pre-incarnation of the Lord, a type of transubstantiation.

Lets not forget to closely examine Paul on verse 26, which Paul spells it out that it is symbolic.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come

I would heed Pauls warning; I’m certain it does not apply to me as far as the practice of my faith is concerned.

Got to run, might be able to get back after 10pm est

 

[Timothy_Piper]

When Jesus spoke in parables he told the disciples “I give you a parable”. When Jesus instituted the Eucharist in his body and blood he never once stated to his disciples that he was speaking a parable, figuratively or metaphorically this interjection of Jesus Words are antichrist.

What we have here is a subject dealing with a mystery from God that is revealed in the Spirit, not the flesh. Catholics take the position of the eternal Spirit for it is the Spirit that reveals these mysteries of God. The natural person who is of the flesh, walks away from Jesus because these are not of the Spirit they are of the flesh, and believe that Jesus is speaking of cannibalism as you have confirmed here that if Jesus spoke literally it would mean cannibalism. When God created you, God created you from dust and water, but when God gave life to your natural body, GOD BREATHED (LIFE) HIS SPIRIT INTO YOU.

God does not change. In the New Covenant which is the fulfillment of the natural law (flesh) but of the Spirit which exceeds the natural law because the Spirit fulfills the flesh or natural law. Catholics are a new creation in Jesus, we are now children of the living God by virtue of our sacramental baptism. The Eucharist is for the Children of God, the Eucharist is not for the unbelievers. When Jesus speaks to the bread and wine, just as God spoke creation into existence, the Spirit is what changes the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus by his ETERNAL WORD, while to the flesh (natural person) is of no avail because to our souls this is (the bread from heaven) our eternal food that promises the believer “eternal life”, why? because God says it, and because God’s WILL promises eternal life for whomever eats his body and drinks his blood.

The ancient church was wise to label this miracle the blessed sacrament. Because it eliminates all the heretical teachings of cannibalism and a symbolic Jesus.

When God freed the slaves, what did they have to do so that the angel of death could passover them? They MUST consume eat the lamb and then God makes this “rememberance” to be made perpetually “always” never to end.

Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. We in the new covenant in his blood, must consume the Lambs body (Jesus himself) in order to passover from death into eternal life. God does not change, as your interpretation leads one astray to an ever changing god. Jesus fulfills the Old testament passover perpetual law in himself “once and for all”. And the people of God must still eat of the “paschal” lambs flesh which is Jesus himself present in the “rememberance of him” in the blessed sacrament of the Eucharist which becomes Jesus body, blood soul and divinity from which we are partakers (see 2Peter 1:4)

Peace be with you

If God does not change, which we agree, then how come Catholics teach that Baptism infuses saving grace when no such thing existed in the OT; has He changed the way He saves. You again have it backwards concerning the smbolism of the passover, but hey…the key is obedience and is the message, just like Moses holding up the serpent in the wilderness.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I can’t debate with ignorance of Scripture, so i 'll give you some thought to consider about metaphores in relation to Jesus.

Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Gate (John 10:9)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)
and so on and so on, literal objects to show a spiritual reality.

You apparently missed the whole point from which you have been arguing when Jesus spoke of the spirit, that Jesus was speaking Metaphorically or symbolically by using the word Spirit. How do you define the spirit in a way to describe Jesus speaking metaphorically? Never mind the titles given Jesus to reflect his power and grace of who he is, we are speaking about a real spirit or a symbolic spirit.

Spirit is not used symbolically ever until the Protestants protested from Catholicism. Before this Protestant revolt, all of Christendom believed in the True presence of Jesus being presence body, and blood in the Eucharist. Your symbolic spirit interpretation is a new invention by man interpreting translated scripture.

Please stick to the facts as you have presented them. The argument you propose against the apostolic teaching of the true presence, was using Jesus words of the spirit to indicate a symbolic speech, which never takes place in John 6:63.

I concur, it makes it difficult to communicate when one changes the topic in the middle of an explanation. Ignorance of scripture is ingnorance of Jesus Christ. How can his be, when I believe in a real presence of Jesus Christ, and you hold to a new teaching of a symbolic Jesus.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The “words, what He said” are spirit and life; the flesh profits NOTHING. The only transubstaniation ever shown in the NT is with John, Peter and James and had nothing to do with turning an object into a person. That is added and man-made transubstantiation IMO and according to the whole of Scripture. Looking at the funace of fire in Daniel 3 is pre-incarnation of the Lord, a type of transubstantiation.

Lets not forget to closely examine Paul on verse 26, which Paul spells it out that it is symbolic.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come

I would heed Pauls warning; I’m certain it does not apply to me as far as the practice of my faith is concerned.

Got to run, might be able to get back after 10pm est

Gabriel of 12;
Cant help you here until it is made clear and confirmed that the bible speaks of a symbolic spirit to which you claim to believe in. Again define spirit from the bible language and these New Testament scriptures will open the mysteries of God to your soul.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

If God does not change, which we agree, then how come Catholics teach that Baptism infuses saving grace when no such thing existed in the OT; has He changed the way He saves. You again have it backwards concerning the smbolism of the passover, but hey…the key is obedience and is the message, just like Moses holding up the serpent in the wilderness.

Gabriel of 12;

This is a topic that may need some introduction to clarify some of your misunderstanding of the biblical sacrament of baptism which the Catholic Church has taught since biblical times. Please take the time to educate yourself on the official teachings of a sacrament from the Catholic Church.

Sacrament = Catechism Section 1084

“Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the actions of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

Catechism Section 1127
Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies.

Catechism Section 1131
The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament.
Note that the Catholic Church does not state that the Sacraments are the only way that these graces are bestowed upon us.
The sacraments exist for both us individually and as part of the Church community.

Catechism Section 1134
The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful on the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

Mt 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Mt 3:11
I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

**Gal 3:25-27
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. **

1 Cor 12:12-13
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.** For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. **

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?” Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

**Titus 3:5
… not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit. **

**1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. **

Are you equating the Old covenant law of circumcision which has been fulfilled in the sacrament of baptism. Jesus FULFILLED “behold I make all things new”. God did not change, he paid the price to fulfill the old covenant law which demanded blood and a life inorder to be set free from the law that convicts us to death. By the New and everlasting covenant in Jesus Christ body and blood sacrfice, Jesus has made us a new creation in God by virtue of our baptism.

Baptism is entrance into the Kingdom of God, just as circumcision cut the covenant for a man, and from this cut his whole entire household entered the old covenant with him. Baptism does not discriminate to anyone, but welcomes anyone and everyone in every age.

Peace be with you

 

[Timothy_Piper]

You apparently missed the whole point from which you have been arguing when Jesus spoke of the spirit, that Jesus was speaking Metaphorically or symbolically by using the word Spirit. How do you define the spirit in a way to describe Jesus speaking metaphorically? Never mind the titles given Jesus to reflect his power and grace of who he is, we are speaking about a real spirit or a symbolic spirit.

Spirit is not used symbolically ever until the Protestants protested from Catholicism. Before this Protestant revolt, all of Christendom believed in the True presence of Jesus being presence body, and blood in the Eucharist. Your symbolic spirit interpretation is a new invention by man interpreting translated scripture.

Please stick to the facts as you have presented them. The argument you propose against the apostolic teaching of the true presence, was using Jesus words of the spirit to indicate a symbolic speech, which never takes place in John 6:63.

I concur, it makes it difficult to communicate when one changes the topic in the middle of an explanation. Ignorance of scripture is ingnorance of Jesus Christ. How can his be, when I believe in a real presence of Jesus Christ, and you hold to a new teaching of a symbolic Jesus.

Peace be with you

Perhaps a figure of speech defined as “Language used in a figurative or nonliteral sense”
John 6:63, Jesus tells us He was speaking, referring to the the eating and drinking of flesh and blood, in a figurative sense, meaning the words I speak are Spirit and Life, that is the literal and the nonliteral is His actual human flesh and blood. He states it in no uncertain terms so you would not misunderstand; yet you do anyway, just as those followers that walked away in unbelief…go figure??

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Gabriel of 12;

This is a topic that may need some introduction to clarify some of your misunderstanding of the biblical sacrament of baptism which the Catholic Church has taught since biblical times. Please take the time to educate yourself on the official teachings of a sacrament from the Catholic Church.

Sacrament = Catechism Section 1084

“Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the actions of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

Catechism Section 1127
Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies.

Catechism Section 1131
The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament.
Note that the Catholic Church does not state that the Sacraments are the only way that these graces are bestowed upon us.
The sacraments exist for both us individually and as part of the Church community.

Catechism Section 1134
The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful on the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

Mt 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Mt 3:11
I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

Gal 3:25-27
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Cor 12:12-13
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.** For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. **

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?” Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

**Titus 3:5
… not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit. **

1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

Are you equating the Old covenant law of circumcision which has been fulfilled in the sacrament of baptism. Jesus FULFILLED “behold I make all things new”. God did not change, he paid the price to fulfill the old covenant law which demanded blood and a life inorder to be set free from the law that convicts us to death. By the New and everlasting covenant in Jesus Christ body and blood sacrfice, Jesus has made us a new creation in God by virtue of our baptism.

Baptism is entrance into the Kingdom of God, just as circumcision cut the covenant for a man, and from this cut his whole entire household entered the old covenant with him. Baptism does not discriminate to anyone, but welcomes anyone and everyone in every age.

Peace be with you

LOL…that is some fantastic and mystical theology you have there; especially the explanation of circumcision to baptism; you agree that God does not change how He saves, then you proceed to show exactly the opposite through your ritual in the Catechism and then this mumbo-jumbo hocus-pocus theology I believe you must have just invented…LOL Baptism is the entrance to the Kingdom; wow that is another gospel. I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me and water baptism? Is that what the Lord taught? LOl John 3:16

Circumcision never saved a person in the OT; why do you think Abraham was saved prior to circumcision or has God just made an exception? So the Jews would know that circumcision did not save but only identified them as Israel and not all of Israel is Israel as God taught. Furthermore, Romans 3 is Paul explaining to the gentiles converts who were slipping back to ritualism, legalism, monasticism & philosphy; it is only in Christ that one is complete and Romans 3 clearly demonstrates God saves the same of the circuncison (Jews) & uncircumcision (gentiles, you & I) by what? FAITH

Then flip over to Colossians 2 and you will see all the isms & philosophy of men adding to faith and nullifying saving grace.

If you spent the next 2 months just studying these 2 chapters in as deep of depth as you can dig; you will see the gospel of your salvation in no uncertain terms.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Gabriel of 12;This is a topic that may need some introduction to clarify some of your misunderstanding of the biblical sacrament of baptism which the Catholic Church has taught since biblical times. Please take the time to educate yourself on the official teachings of a sacrament from the Catholic Church.
Sacrament = Catechism Section 1084
“Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the actions of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.
Catechism 1127
Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies.

Catechism Section 1131
The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament.
Note that the Catholic Church does not state that the Sacraments are the only way that these graces are bestowed upon us.
The sacraments exist for both us individually and as part of the Church community.

Catechism Section 1134
The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful on the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

Mt 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Mt 3:11
I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

Gal 3:25-27
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Cor 12:12-13
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.** For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. **

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?” Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

**Titus 3:5
… not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit. **

1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

Are you equating the Old covenant law of circumcision which has been fulfilled in the sacrament of baptism. Jesus FULFILLED “behold I make all things new”. God did not change, he paid the price to fulfill the old covenant law which demanded blood and a life inorder to be set free from the law that convicts us to death. By the New and everlasting covenant in Jesus Christ body and blood sacrfice, Jesus has made us a new creation in God by virtue of our baptism.

Baptism is entrance into the Kingdom of God, just as circumcision cut the covenant for a man, and from this cut his whole entire household entered the old covenant with him. Baptism does not discriminate to anyone, but welcomes anyone and everyone in every age.

Peace be with you

You agree that God does not change how He saves, then you proceed to show exactly the opposite through your ritual in the Catechism. Then some newfound theology you gave in the last paragraph; I believe you must have just invented…LOL “Baptism is the entrance to the Kingdom”; wow that is another gospel. *** I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me*** and water baptism? Is that what the Lord taught? LOL John 3:16

Circumcision never saved a person in the OT; why do you think Abraham was saved prior to circumcision or has God just made an exception? So the Jews would know that circumcision did not save but only identified them as Israel and not all of Israel is Israel as God taught. Furthermore, Romans 3 is Paul explaining to the gentiles converts who were slipping back to ritualism, legalism, monasticism & philosphy; it is only in Christ that one is complete and Romans 3 clearly demonstrates God saves the same of the circuncison (Jews) & uncircumcision (gentiles, you & I) by what? FAITH

Then flip over to Colossians 2 and you will see all the isms & philosophy of men adding to faith and nullifying saving grace as i listed above.

If you spent the next 2 months just studying these 2 chapters in as deep of depth as you can possibly dig; you will see the gospel of your salvation in no uncertain terms.

God bless

Please excuse my unexcusable LOL’s in the previous post; I am trying to have it removed, but in case I fail, i apolgize. timothy

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You agree that God does not change how He saves, then you proceed to show exactly the opposite through your ritual in the Catechism. Then some newfound theology you gave in the last paragraph; I believe you must have just invented…LOL “Baptism is the entrance to the Kingdom”; wow that is another gospel. *** I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me*** and water baptism? Is that what the Lord taught? LOL John 3:16

Circumcision never saved a person in the OT; why do you think Abraham was saved prior to circumcision or has God just made an exception? So the Jews would know that circumcision did not save but only identified them as Israel and not all of Israel is Israel as God taught. Furthermore, Romans 3 is Paul explaining to the gentiles converts who were slipping back to ritualism, legalism, monasticism & philosphy; it is only in Christ that one is complete and Romans 3 clearly demonstrates God saves the same of the circuncison (Jews) & uncircumcision (gentiles, you & I) by what? FAITH

Gabriel of 12;
Greetings Timothy Piper; No harm done from your negative expressions of my Catholic faith. The Peace of Jesus Christ still reigns. I can understand how you may think, that my Catholic faith appears new to you, is because you have been engrained with false representations, and misguided or misunderstood interpretations of my Catholic faith.

It appears to me that you either did not read what a sacrament is, or you didn’t understand the definition of a sacrament. Let me explain it to you in layman terms.

No one can enter into the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you,** no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. **
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

In the sacrament of baptism, is where the saving grace of God or the finger of God touches humanity, because the blessed Trinity is present. “The way to the Father is through Jesus” and Jesus is present in all of his sacraments beginning with baptism. This teaching is not new. What is a new gospel are the ones who teach that baptism does not save you.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered 5 for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured** baptism, which saves you now.**

For the record, i did not say circumcision saves you, circumcision was the way of entrance into the Old covenant of God. Baptism is a death and resurrection in Jesus Christ from the baptismal waters that make us a new creation, children of God of which we cry out “Abba Father”. After one enters the Kingdom of God by baptism through Jesus Christ, comes the graces, strength, to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”
If you read any of my posted scriptures please read the next two which confirm my Catholic faith as I have briefly described it biblically.

Philippians 2:12
10 11 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent,** work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 12 **13
For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.
15
that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, 13 among whom you shine like lights in the world,
16
as you hold on to the word of life…

Colossians 2:10
and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.
11
**In him 5 you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. **
12
**You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. **
13
And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;

I know we have gotten off track here, but are you going to confirm that the bible never teaches about a symbolic spirit?, as you believe Jesus to teach of a symbolic spirit from John 6:63.

Jesus makes it perfectly clear that when he introduces his teaching is of the Spirit, Jesus does not mean he is kidding or speaking symbolically, Jesus uses the word Spirt to signify without doubt that he meant his teaching to eat his body, drink his blood are said with the Spirit which gives life eternal the flesh cannot do what the Spirit can that is why the flesh is of no avail. To attach Spirit to his eating his body means that what Jesus has taught remains, that is why his disciples never returned after Jesus revealed that his words are of the Spirit not of the flesh. Jesus meant what he said to eat his flesh, and drink his blood.
Had Jesus meant to introduce spirit in a symbolic way? his disciples would have not left him altogether. But they left Jesus, when Jesus attached his words to the Spirit which will never change, making his sacrifice once and for all eternally perpetual fulfilling the perpetual passover (lamb) sacrifice law in himself. The flesh cannot do this perpetually because one day all flesh will turn to dust.

Peace be with you

 

[Timothy_Piper]

and water baptism? Is that what the Lord taught? LOL John 3:16

Circumcision never saved a person in the OT; why do you think Abraham was saved prior to circumcision or has God just made an exception? So the Jews would know that circumcision did not save but only identified them as Israel and not all of Israel is Israel as God taught. Furthermore, Romans 3 is Paul explaining to the gentiles converts who were slipping back to ritualism, legalism, monasticism & philosphy; it is only in Christ that one is complete and Romans 3 clearly demonstrates God saves the same of the circuncison (Jews) & uncircumcision (gentiles, you & I) by what? FAITH

Gabriel of 12;
Greetings Timothy Piper; No harm done from your negative expressions of my Catholic faith. The Peace of Jesus Christ still reigns. I can understand how you may think, that my Catholic faith appears new to you, is because you have been engrained with false representations, and misguided or misunderstood interpretations of my Catholic faith.

It appears to me that you either did not read what a sacrament is, or you didn’t understand the definition of a sacrament. Let me explain it to you in layman terms.

No one can enter into the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you,** no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. **
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

In the sacrament of baptism, is where the saving grace of God or the finger of God touches humanity, because the blessed Trinity is present. “The way to the Father is through Jesus” and Jesus is present in all of his sacraments beginning with baptism. This teaching is not new. What is a new gospel are the ones who teach that baptism does not save you.

You are a ritualistic and legalistic and you have shown by your CCC that this is the case; Jesus says it is by faith, not of works,least anyone should boast. Romans 3 shows us how circumcision could not save and how God saved the circumcised (OT Jews) and uncircumcised (Gentiles NT) by what? Faith. Colossians 2:1-23 Paul shows us 1) Not Philosophy but Christ 2) Neither Philosophy but Christ nor 3) Legalism, but Christ

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered 5 for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured** baptism, which saves you now.**

You really missed the point here, as I said don’t confuse the use or mention of water with baptism necessarily. Here the water is what? Judgment from God on the world. Who sealed the Ark of promise, was it Noah or God? God! This is a representation of the receiving of the HS of promise which seals the believer, the true baptism, not of water that can only remove dirt.

Eph. 1 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

For the record, i did not say circumcision saves you, circumcision was the way of entrance into the Old covenant of God. Baptism is a death and resurrection in Jesus Christ from the baptismal waters that make us a new creation, children of God of which we cry out “Abba Father”. After one enters the Kingdom of God by baptism through Jesus Christ, comes the graces, strength, to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”
If you read any of my posted scriptures please read the next two which confirm my Catholic faith as I have briefly described it biblically.

Friend you are teaching another gospel, water will never do a thing for you concerning your salvation just as kool-aid didn’t do a thing except condemn those that were with bad ole’ JJ.

Continued next post

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Philippians 2:12
10 11 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent,** work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 12 **13
For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.
15
that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, 13 among whom you shine like lights in the world,
16
as you hold on to the word of life…

Colossians 2:10
and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.
11
**In him 5 you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. **
12
**You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. **
13
And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;

I know we have gotten off track here, but are you going to confirm that the bible never teaches about a symbolic spirit?, as you believe Jesus to teach of a symbolic spirit from John 6:63.

Jesus makes it perfectly clear that when he introduces his teaching is of the Spirit, Jesus does not mean he is kidding or speaking symbolically, Jesus uses the word Spirt to signify without doubt that he meant his teaching to eat his body, drink his blood are said with the Spirit which gives life eternal the flesh cannot do what the Spirit can that is why the flesh is of no avail. To attach Spirit to his eating his body means that what Jesus has taught remains, that is why his disciples never returned after Jesus revealed that his words are of the Spirit not of the flesh. Jesus meant what he said to eat his flesh, and drink his blood.
Had Jesus meant to introduce spirit in a symbolic way? his disciples would have not left him altogether. But they left Jesus, when Jesus attached his words to the Spirit which will never change, making his sacrifice once and for all eternally perpetual fulfilling the perpetual passover (lamb) sacrifice law in himself. The flesh cannot do this perpetually because one day all flesh will turn to dust.

Peace be with you

I cleared up the spirit miscommunication; God help me if I implied implicitly or explicitly a symbolic Spirit of God. Hopefully to got the correct understanding that the human flesh and blood of Jesus was a nonliteral aspect of the literal truth of Spirit and life; He was referring to being steeped into Him spiritually, not literally. (John 6:63) The words I speak are “Spirit and Life” To eat Jesus literally makes no sense at all but to feed on the Word of Life, which is Christ makes a lot of sense and this is how He meant it and this is how the church in Acts celebrated; breaking of “BREAD”, not “FLESH”; toss away you revised history Books and stick with the trusted one; you rituals and sacraments will not do what you hope they will.

Peace also be with you; I got to get the much desired ZZZZZ’s

I hope you read the email or PM that I sent you for post#76. Born of water and spirit has zelch to do with water baptism. Just because you see water you cannot assume baptism