Catholics lack common sense.

[Timothy_Piper]

KathleenGee,

I bow to you and respect your experience in the field of Christianity. Thanks for sharing. Keep up the good work.

I’ve also been involved in many programs withing the Catholic church. I worked in RCIA for several years. My wife and I were co-Chairman of the RCIA program in our church. I am now a member of he Men’s club and a Lay Eucharist Minister of Holy Communion. In addition my wife and I attend bible studies twice a week given by a Theologian, whom we are very fortunate to have in our church. I’ve been involved in programs within our Church, starting out as an Altar boy when I was a young boy. One of my children is a missionary in the Philippines. Two of my other children also distribute Communion in their churches. Another of my daughters runs the church’s book store along with my wife. All six of our children and very active in their church communities.

I love studying Holy Scripture - I find it most fascinating and rewarding.

May our Lord bless you and your family

p.s. I didn’t mean for this to get personal, as it is not part of this topic, but felt it would do no harm. I was pleased to see KathleenGee’s credentials.

Sounds like you are storing up more than enough meritorious grace, that if you keep it up, will not only bypass purgatory, but have enough left over to add tot he deposit of faith to help others get out of purgatory early.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

First of all,

When reading Sacred Scripture, you have to consider the author’s intent, his message, and in the same Holy Spirit in its then and its intent today.

We also have to realize that there are senses of Scripture – the literal sense…like God created everything in 6 days…There is the spiritual sense to Scripture and from this second sense, we have 3 sub’s…allegorical…recognizing the significance of the Jews crossing the Red Sea and Christ being a bridge through baptism for our union with Him, the moral sense of Scripture, and the angogical sense of Scripture that reflects on our eternal signficance…who we are, where we are going, our heavenly aim.

Then we have to deal with the issue of language in Scripture…Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.

We must be attentive to the analogy of faith, its coherence and in the whole plan of revelation. I hear Protestants share, I experience the Lord with them, but there is so, so much they do not have as well as the beautiful culture of the liturgical year.

So to get the deal right, in other words, to know that what we are receiving comes from the One True God through His Spirit…we must be attentive to the Whole of Scripture. We must read the Bible in its content and unity in the light of the teachings of the Church, --the Sacred Tradition-- this coming none other than from the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ Himself to the Apostles, to the Church Fathers, to the bishops and the succession of the laying of hands.

In essence, Jesus Christ is not only prophet and King, He is Eternal Word…the Word Made Flesh Who dwelt among us!!!

You should not give a come back without looking at any historical references of which I gave you. So many Christians think there was some big gap between the early church and the 1500’s…so we in essence had no shepherds…thus, Christ did a lousy job.

The Christ I believe in did not found a 5% church with interpretations based on bias and whimsy. And you cannot perceive the tremendous damage Sola Scriptura has done to Christianity and our populations, our families…

Christ instituted His Church, He gave not one apostle, an individual, but 12, and they had their followers who they chose and knew would not deceive them and create new heresies…

Open your heart and soul and start reading ancient Christian history, the beginnings of the Mass, the first reference coming from St. Justinian around 150 a.d. Where did the word sacramentum come from…? What happened around this word? Have you seen the pictographs in the catacombs…

Think that the Breaking of Bread of the Eucharist gave new Life to its believers, formly enslaved by the ancient Roman life, coming to life in the tombs of the dead in the very heart of Rome…both magnificent and evil, whose effects we see today.

You cannot condemn what you do not know. If our Masses and saints and beliefs were fake, we would have died out long ago…consider the Code of Hammurabi many theists refer to…and it died out long before the 10 commandments.

Check out Hebrewcatholic.org and see why they are becoming not only believers in Christ, but in His church…the Jews. Read Roy Shoeman’s book, ‘Salvation is from the Jews’…they experience they are more Jewish now in the Catholic church than before…

I don’t think we can dialogue without you studying history more.

Blessings!

I agree about the dialogue part, but not for the same reasons. You claim to understand the Word of God and by that claim you will one day be judged; I hope for your sake you got it right.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I thought I would add this in…I shared it on another thread…

Here are pictures of St. Bernadette, before and after her death 130 years ago in 1879.\

www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm

In reference to Martin Luther, he began the Sola Scriptura movement, taking out 7 books of the bible that took hundreds of years and many people and translators to form…and said we are saved by faith alone…He took out Sirach, Maccabees, St. James, and others all to suit his idea…and an angel appeared to him warning him not to do that…

I don’t know what you mean by baggage, but I do perceive an obvious bias…And yes, the Eucharist is also Thanksgiving… a memorial, a Be’Kaa…the Catholic/Orthodox liturgies are the fulfillment of ancient liturgies…Catholics are fulfilled Jews…as John Paul II said.

How about reading the martyrdom of Ss. Perpetua and Felicity in Carthage around the year 200 A.D. It was written in Perpetua’s own words…

Sometimes I think there is misunderstanding many times by protestants because of how they have been taught…no amount of reason can help.

It does get real confusing when your Teacher is God.
John 14:15-17"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; {that is} the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, ***{but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. ***

John 15:26-27 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Eph 1 -*** In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,*** who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I hope for your sake your claims are correct.

 

[peary]

So I was just reading the Westminister Confession of Faith, to see how I can talk to my friend who is Presbyterian better…
WELL… I came across this:

CHAPTER 29
Of the Lord’s Supper

Hopefully the stuff bolded that I wanted to. I see how some people have trouble seeing a different standpoint- because this practically says Catholics lack common sense, we are idolatrious, and are not doing what the Lord commanded of us. Yet at the beginning they say it is his Body and Blood… hmmm.

Sounds pretty authentically Presbyterian to me!

 

[ccolley2]

I refer to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:51-71 (from the Vatican Website)

51

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

53

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60

20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

61

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65

And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

68

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

70

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

71

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.

I really don’t see any evidence in this whole section that indicates Christ was talking symbolically. He continues to assert that it is His Body and Blood even though it shocks His listeners, even though it is hard for them to accept. He doesn’t call back the ones that leave. I think His words and His meaning are perfectly clear.

Amen! alleluia! It is so!
CC

 

[KathleenGee]

What about the book of Hebrews in the New Testament…

Why the Last Supper…why giving the apostles the power to forgive sins?

You share references to the Eucharist that we share in common as well…but it is more…

as was stated in previous posts…and more so, in the life of the Church for 2,000 years.

Without knowing it, you simply make passing statements not in context with the Church…

The Bible is open to interpretation…but Christ has called us to be one…instead the Bible has been misused and is the source of so much dissension and fracturing of the unity of one faith and one baptism and one body…

 

[ccolley2]

I would ask you to ask God to seal you with the Spirit of Truth; AKA the holy Spirit, which is the ONLY guide to the believer of Jesus and the gospel, which is the true Truth Teacher. .

Wrong! The Church is the Pillar and bulwark of Truth! How does the bible tell us to determine the spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error??? 1John4:6
*“We belong to God and anyone who has knowledge of God gives us a hearing, while anyone who is not of God refuses to hear us. Thus do we distinguish the spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error…” *(the “We” is the Apostles that are speaking to the Christians).

And what about Philip meeting the Eunuch in Acts 8? Philip asks him if he can understand the scriptures…and the Eunuch replies (verse31) “how can I unless someone explains it to me?” Did Philip then say…hey, just ask the Holy Spirit to reveal all to you as it is the only guide to the believer of Jesus and the Gospel…oh, but wait…he didn’t say that…now did he? NOOOOO! Let’s see what Scripture says (verse35)…" Philip launched out with this Scripture (Isaiah) as a starting point, telling him the Good News of Jesus Christ…" (boldened words mine for clarification).
CC

 

[ccolley2]

If God does not change, which we agree, then how come Catholics teach that Baptism infuses saving grace when no such thing existed in the OT; has He changed the way He saves. You again have it backwards concerning the smbolism of the passover, but hey…the key is obedience and is the message, just like Moses holding up the serpent in the wilderness.

1Peter 3:20-22
"…when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were saved through water,* Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…" *** (boldened for emphasis)

Looks to me like Scripture says that we ARE saved by Baptism…
CC

 

[eucharisteo]

Wrong! The Church is the Pillar and bulwark of Truth! How does the bible tell us to determine the spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error??? 1John4:6
*“We belong to God and anyone who has knowledge of God gives us a hearing, while anyone who is not of God refuses to hear us. Thus do we distinguish the spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error…” *(the “We” is the Apostles that are speaking to the Christians).

And what about Philip meeting the Eunuch in Acts 8? Philip asks him if he can understand the scriptures…and the Eunuch replies (verse31) “how can I unless someone explains it to me?” Did Philip then say…hey, just ask the Holy Spirit to reveal all to you as it is the only guide to the believer of Jesus and the Gospel…oh, but wait…he didn’t say that…now did he? NOOOOO! Let’s see what Scripture says (verse35)…" Philip launched out with this Scripture (Isaiah) as a starting point, telling him the Good News of Jesus Christ…" (boldened words mine for clarification).
CC

Right on the fact that scripture clearly states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

We used the story of the Eunich to show that baptism after believing is necessary to expedite with immediacy. I was brought into a church at 7:30 PM one night after being convinced that I needed to be baptized after months of proselytizing by my wife’s family, a story for another time to convince Catholic considering marrying outside the church to a proselytizing Christian. Now that I see this with a Catholic understanding of scripture, which makes much more sense to me now, I find this even more interesting.

 

[Good_Fella]

So I was just reading the Westminister Confession of Faith, to see how I can talk to my friend who is Presbyterian better…
WELL… I came across this:

CHAPTER 29
Of the Lord’s Supper

. Our Lord Jesus, in the night wherein he was betrayed, instituted the sacrament of his body and blood, called the Lord’s Supper, to be observed in his church, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance of the sacrifice of himself in his death; the sealing all benefits thereof unto true believers, their spiritual nourishment and growth in him, their further engagement in and to all duties which they owe unto him; and, to be a bond and pledge of their communion with him, and with each other, as members of his mystical body.

1. In this sacrament, Christ is not offered up to his Father; nor any real sacrifice made at all, for remission of sins of the quick or dead; but only a commemoration of that one offering up of himself, by himself, upon the cross, once for all: and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God, for the same: so that the popish sacrifice of the mass (as they call it) is most abominably injurious to Christ’s one, only sacrifice, the alone propitiation for all the sins of his elect.
2. Private masses, or receiving this sacrament by a priest, or any other, alone; as likewise, the denial of the cup to the people, worshiping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about, for adoration, and the reserving them for any pretended religious use; are all contrary to the nature of this sacrament, and to the institution of Christ.
3. The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ; albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.
4. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ’s body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense, and reason; overthroweth the nature of the sacrament, and hath been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions; yea, of** gross idolatries.**

Hopefully the stuff bolded that I wanted to. I see how some people have trouble seeing a different standpoint- because this practically says Catholics lack common sense, we are idolatrious, and are not doing what the Lord commanded of us. Yet at the beginning they say it is his Body and Blood… hmmm.

First, Catholics believe that Jesus Christ - the Son of God - is really present in the Eucharist, body and blood soul and divinity, so I fail to see how we are committing and act of idolatry by adoring the Blessed Sacrament. Jesus Christ is not a false god. :nope:

Second, when Nicodemus mistakenly took Jesus literally when our Lord said: “No one can see the kingdom of God unless he be born again,” by imagining that one must re-enter his mother’s womb, Jesus explained what he meant to say: “No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and spirit,” to clear up the Jewish elder’s misunderstanding. But that wasn’t the case when many of Jesus’ followers rejected him for having said that the bread he was referring to was his flesh to eat. These Jews weren’t corrected for having taken Jesus’ words literally. Indeed, our Lord made it clear that he was not to be taken metaphorically, by swearing an oath and insisting four times that we must eat (phago) his flesh (the paschal sacrificial lamb) and drink his blood (Jn 6: 51-58).

St. Bishop Ignatius of Antioch (c.A.D.110) was by all probability a pupil of St. John, and like his mentor he taught that the consecrated elements of bread and wine are actually the flesh and blood of Christ. :yup:

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[eucharisteo]

First, Catholics believe that Jesus Christ - the Son of God - is really present in the Eucharist, body and blood soul and divinity, so I fail to see how we are committing and act of idolatry by adoring the Blessed Sacrament. Jesus Christ is not a false god. :nope:

Second, when Nicodemus mistakenly took Jesus literally when our Lord said: “No one can see the kingdom of God unless he be born again,” by imagining that one must re-enter his mother’s womb, Jesus explained what he meant to say: “No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and spirit,” to clear up the Jewish elder’s misunderstanding. But that wasn’t the case when many of Jesus’ followers rejected him for having said that the bread he was referring to was his flesh to eat. These Jews weren’t corrected for having taken Jesus’ words literally. Indeed, our Lord made it clear that he was not to be taken metaphorically, by swearing an oath and insisting four times that we must eat (phago) his flesh (the paschal sacrificial lamb) and drink his blood (Jn 6: 51-58).

St. Bishop Ignatius of Antioch (c.A.D.110) was by all probability a pupil of St. John, and like his mentor he taught that the consecrated elements of bread and wine are actually the flesh and blood of Christ. :yup:

Pax Christu :harp:

Read it for yourself right hear… this is what convinced me I made a grave error in leaving the Catholic Church… and the reason I returned… I left as one and returned with my entire family…the daughter of the man that proselytized me.
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

[SeanTom]

Eucharist simply means thanks; in the context of Scripture it is to be thankful and remember His death, the flesh and blood poured out on my behalf and I am thankful and have taken the narrowest of paths and I did struggle to get through; how about you?

The word Eucharist also means: “The Living Christ” as taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia as part of the Holy Family Catholic Bible published in 1958 and stamped with the Imprimatur approval of Samuel Cardinal Stritch, Archbishop of Chicago.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mr Piper,

If you would do more thorough research, St. James the Lesser was the head of Jerusalem…St. James the Greater went to another country. Christ had no brothers, but cousins.

What I gave you in understanding the Scriptures is the authentic perspective given not by me, but by my church…

And I don’t perceive ‘the attitude’ you have…your remarks reflect a very bias perspective that is based on emotion and not an open mind, as well as alot of projection, aka the sneer about purgatory…

Again, you need to read more of Catholic sources to understand what we truly believe, and our history. What church do you belong to, what region of the country are you in, what experience have you had with Catholics?

You hate what you have been told…and you met some Catholics that you did not like that some how filled that image you have of us.

I went to a candlelight Mass last night and prayed at the end to the Virgin for you, that the Holy Spirit would move through you and open your soul to the truth…It is is so easy, so wide and easy, to find a way that is our way but it might not be atleast all the way…which is narrow and hard…and disciplined…I can’t follow individualistic takes, but the gathering of a people…

 

[jayr_unknown]

uummm He said He broke bread and said He drank the fruit of the vine; but perhaps He meant something else not stated. In the book of Acts their is talk of people gathering (the church) and “breaking bread”; no mention of ever eating flesh.

Jesus would be in violation of His own commandment in Genesis 9:4 & Leviticus 17:14 & Deuteronomy 12:23; I don’t believe that God is a hypocrite nor changes, at least in my personal opinion based on what I know and love of Him

There were accusations against Christians as being cannibals, but these claims were made by pagans and was a false claim to try to diminish and destroy Christianity by secular pagans.

i have read other posts also and i saw lots and lots and lots of passages in john wherein jesus said that the bread is his body and that we should eat it.chew if we have to harharhar.indeed his question “are you shocked or scandalized”(as what the other posts had mentioned) was intended to those who cant accept the interpretation of the catholics.then also they mentioned(earlier posts) that some followers leave Jesus after they have learned what Jesus really mean by eating his flesh.harharhar i wonder who were those that leave the church upon knowing these truth?

 

[PJM]

=Timothy Piper;5994816]Why would anyone who wants to know god go outside of Scripture to find Him?

***If you’re not Catholic there are mutiple reasons.

**First *the KJB deleated seven ENTIRE BOOKS of the Orginal Bible [see 2 Tim. 3:16] and additionally made numerous theological changes to accomidate there NEW found, human inspired Christinaity.

Second The Bible itself tells us specifically and clearly that “not everything is to be found in the bible.”

John 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. "

Third: There is a palce for "logic / commonsense in Christian education:

Luke 1:[26] In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. [31] ***And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. *** He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

Common sense example.

Jesus is God
Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, PJM, good post.

I shared how to read the Scriptures as what I was taught by the priest who was correcting errors of those already in professional ministry…I was a housewife and was invited to come in. It was 10 years ago. Then reflecting on posts by many here…Fr Corapi came on and explained everything again, so I copied it down…

What I gave this fellow was how the Church teaches us to look at Scripture.

Please note that the Vatican holds the largest and greatest library in the world; do deny the Holy Spirit is not at work or to accuse us of not having any sense when we all know the effects of Sola Scriptura, the audacious work to remove 7 books of the Bible by one person…the damage is absolutely incredible, all pointing to the truth that we are sheep, we need shepherds.

The Lord never abandoned us to our own way of reasoning…Look at Jim Jones and his massacres in South America who thought he was following the Holy Spirit…

The Word of God is the Eternal Word of God and it is meant to be understood in the Jewish tradition, meaning structure, discipline, and the Word of God coming to a gathering of people where we must show responsibility to one another, than random individuals.

Mr. Piper is not his own church.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

What about the book of Hebrews in the New Testament…

Why the Last Supper…why giving the apostles the power to forgive sins?

You share references to the Eucharist that we share in common as well…but it is more…

as was stated in previous posts…and more so, in the life of the Church for 2,000 years.

Without knowing it, you simply make passing statements not in context with the Church…

The Bible is open to interpretation…but Christ has called us to be one…instead the Bible has been misused and is the source of so much dissension and fracturing of the unity of one faith and one baptism and one body…

That unity exists, but you can not always see it and no one will see the true unity until the Son of God is revealed, then we will know the true Bride of Christ. The book of Hebrews? What about it? It is not just the apostles who have the power to bind and loose, for the power resides in the message, not the person who delivers it. See the parable of the sower or soils.

I am very clear on the Lords Supper and the Believers Baptism and the true Baptism, which is the one Jesus came to give, which is the Holy Spirit baptism. As I continue to say, before you can get to a priest calling down Jesus from the right hand of the Father, then you will have to show from God how it is legitimate and the sacrament of holy orders is legitimate. Hebrews 7,8,9 kills the levitical style priesthood, which then kills any holy orders. I do wonder how Catholics explain their priesthood?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Wrong! The Church is the Pillar and bulwark of Truth! How does the bible tell us to determine the spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error??? 1John4:6
*“We belong to God and anyone who has knowledge of God gives us a hearing, while anyone who is not of God refuses to hear us. Thus do we distinguish the spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error…” *(the “We” is the Apostles that are speaking to the Christians).

And what about Philip meeting the Eunuch in Acts 8? Philip asks him if he can understand the scriptures…and the Eunuch replies (verse31) “how can I unless someone explains it to me?” Did Philip then say…hey, just ask the Holy Spirit to reveal all to you as it is the only guide to the believer of Jesus and the Gospel…oh, but wait…he didn’t say that…now did he? NOOOOO! Let’s see what Scripture says (verse35)…" Philip launched out with this Scripture (Isaiah) as a starting point, telling him the Good News of Jesus Christ…" (boldened words mine for clarification).
CC

Are you saying the Holy Spirit was not directly working Philip? He had to be for sure since it is part of the Bible. This super natural phenomena is all over the Scripture and always pertains to Christians.

Since you implied that individuals do not have the Holy Spirit, then those individuals are not Christians. The true mark of a Christian is the indwelling. I can show you over a dozen versus to prove the point, but it would be better for oyu to discover this on your own. Also, by your own admission if it apples to the apostles, then it cannot apply to your church either or anyone in your church because all the apostles are dead on earth and the Bible.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

1Peter 3:20-22
"…when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were saved through water,* Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…" *** (boldened for emphasis)

Looks to me like Scripture says that we ARE saved by Baptism…
CC

1 Peter 3:18-22 [In Context]
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits {now} in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–***not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ***who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Genesis 7 - Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him.…All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus ***He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. ***

The water is “judgment” and the ark is safety by the sealing of the Spirit represented by “God” closing the door or sealing His elect, Water baptism is not remotely implied, which is why Peter said, I believe, “not the removal of dirt from the flesh”. This is about obedience more than anything.

Lord please help me…amen

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Right on the fact that scripture clearly states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

We used the story of the Eunich to show that baptism after believing is necessary to expedite with immediacy. I was brought into a church at 7:30 PM one night after being convinced that I needed to be baptized after months of proselytizing by my wife’s family, a story for another time to convince Catholic considering marrying outside the church to a proselytizing Christian. Now that I see this with a Catholic understanding of scripture, which makes much more sense to me now, I find this even more interesting.

You will never see Scripture say the church is the foundation of anything. The church is the protector of the truth revealed from God the Bible, which is why it is the pillar and “support” of the truth of what? The Word of God.