A
agapewolf
Guest
No, I just read the words on the page. They speak volumes:
Except that I have brought up plenty you didn’t know…like this:
- Status
K
KindredSoul
Guest
I’m not married, but there are some observations that can be made and some potential complications that are evident simply by knowing the Faith and what it asks of a Catholic Parent.
I think it is an unwise idea for a Catholic to marry a Protestant. It’s not a sin, but a Catholic considering marriage must remember the duty to do everything within his or her moral power to rear the children totally and 100% Catholic. If you’re considering marriage, but not married yet, one such thing within your power is to marry a devout Catholic spouse who therefore, by default, will contribute to the children’s Catholic Faith. Consider that you are not quite doing 100% everything in your power to rear your children Catholic when you agree to marry a Spouse who is less inclined to help you, 100%, in that regard. Now, some aren’t guilty of this failure since they simply aren’t thinking of that implication when they choose to marry a non-Catholic spouse, but those aware of this implication may want to give it a second thought.
If you do decide to marry a Protestant, you as a Catholic owe it to your children (if it occurs to you–again, not every Catholic to not do this is guilty of deliberate omission) to make sure the Protestant potential spouse agrees to do everything within his/her power to help you raise the children Catholic, and does everything possible to avoid having the children abandon the Catholic Faith for his/her Protestant Faith. It is the duty of you the Catholic to establish this, not of the Protestant to volunteer it, and I believe that’s what the Canon Lawyer meant when she spoke to Lil_Cat, for instance: A Protestant is not willingly under the authority of the Catholic Church, and thus, unlike the Catholic, they only have the responsibility to raise the children Catholic if they embrace it willingly… Of course, if a Catholic is quite thorough in his/her plans to raise the children totally Catholic, he or she will want to secure such a promise before agreeing to marry a Protestant Spouse in the first place. Then, Canon Law notwithstanding, the Protestant is just as responsible as the Catholic by virtue of that promise–as both Protestants and Catholics can agree on the value of keeping one’s word, especially if the whole agreement to marry rested on such a promise.
I will say that, even if the Protestant Spouse makes this promise, it could be quite complicated…they cannot, if they are sincere Christians, lie to the children, nor can a sincere Catholic expect them to; this makes for awkward situations when the children ask the Protestant parent religious questions. Plus it could get very lonely for the Protestant to not be able to fully share his or her faith with his or her own children, even if he or she had thought it would be no problem. There are ways around these matters, but they do make things more complicated for a household hoping to do everything in both parents’ power to rear devout Catholic children. There are potential hardships for both parents in a mixed marriage that simply don’t exist if both parents share one Faith.
To the Protestants (married to Catholics) who are so angry at the Church for daring to hope that your children will be Catholic, totally so, instead of joining your own faith, consider that Catholics do not think of ourselves as a denomination. When I was Protestant, I didn’t care what denomination my future children might be part of as long as they believed in the bare necessities: The Bible. Now that I’m Catholic, The Bible, The Sacred Tradition, the Teachings of the Pope and Magisterium, and all those specifically Catholic Beliefs are the “bare necessities.” Deliberately allowing any children I might have to be instilled with even one value that contradicts those things would be the equivalent of a strict Bible believing Protestant marrying a more liberal “Christian” who believed sometimes the Bible could be disregarded (say, they thought abortion was okay), and not caring if the liberal spouse instilled such values into the children. If you’ll look at it that way (and I’m not trying to offend anyone; it’s honestly the best analogy I can find) then you’ll see why this matter is so important to Catholics. You may even agree to do more to help them raise the children Catholic if you come to appreciate the situation a Catholic parent is in.
For those Catholics already in such marriages who unfortunately didn’t take these things into account, realize that God expects you to remain faithful to your marriage, even if your Spouse fails to appreciate your duties as a Catholic parent…as an unmarried person, I humbly submit these suggestions: Just lovingly do everything presently in your power personally to rear the children Catholic, and pray that they will not be swayed away from the Faith. Try to get your Spouse to understand your duties and respect them, even if they don’t embrace your efforts themselves. Be respectful of your Spouse’s faith, never teaching your children to antagonize them and not doing so yourself, but at the same time be uncompromising in the way you rear your children as faithful Catholics. And again, pray, pray, pray.
I think it is an unwise idea for a Catholic to marry a Protestant. It’s not a sin, but a Catholic considering marriage must remember the duty to do everything within his or her moral power to rear the children totally and 100% Catholic. If you’re considering marriage, but not married yet, one such thing within your power is to marry a devout Catholic spouse who therefore, by default, will contribute to the children’s Catholic Faith. Consider that you are not quite doing 100% everything in your power to rear your children Catholic when you agree to marry a Spouse who is less inclined to help you, 100%, in that regard. Now, some aren’t guilty of this failure since they simply aren’t thinking of that implication when they choose to marry a non-Catholic spouse, but those aware of this implication may want to give it a second thought.
If you do decide to marry a Protestant, you as a Catholic owe it to your children (if it occurs to you–again, not every Catholic to not do this is guilty of deliberate omission) to make sure the Protestant potential spouse agrees to do everything within his/her power to help you raise the children Catholic, and does everything possible to avoid having the children abandon the Catholic Faith for his/her Protestant Faith. It is the duty of you the Catholic to establish this, not of the Protestant to volunteer it, and I believe that’s what the Canon Lawyer meant when she spoke to Lil_Cat, for instance: A Protestant is not willingly under the authority of the Catholic Church, and thus, unlike the Catholic, they only have the responsibility to raise the children Catholic if they embrace it willingly… Of course, if a Catholic is quite thorough in his/her plans to raise the children totally Catholic, he or she will want to secure such a promise before agreeing to marry a Protestant Spouse in the first place. Then, Canon Law notwithstanding, the Protestant is just as responsible as the Catholic by virtue of that promise–as both Protestants and Catholics can agree on the value of keeping one’s word, especially if the whole agreement to marry rested on such a promise.
I will say that, even if the Protestant Spouse makes this promise, it could be quite complicated…they cannot, if they are sincere Christians, lie to the children, nor can a sincere Catholic expect them to; this makes for awkward situations when the children ask the Protestant parent religious questions. Plus it could get very lonely for the Protestant to not be able to fully share his or her faith with his or her own children, even if he or she had thought it would be no problem. There are ways around these matters, but they do make things more complicated for a household hoping to do everything in both parents’ power to rear devout Catholic children. There are potential hardships for both parents in a mixed marriage that simply don’t exist if both parents share one Faith.
To the Protestants (married to Catholics) who are so angry at the Church for daring to hope that your children will be Catholic, totally so, instead of joining your own faith, consider that Catholics do not think of ourselves as a denomination. When I was Protestant, I didn’t care what denomination my future children might be part of as long as they believed in the bare necessities: The Bible. Now that I’m Catholic, The Bible, The Sacred Tradition, the Teachings of the Pope and Magisterium, and all those specifically Catholic Beliefs are the “bare necessities.” Deliberately allowing any children I might have to be instilled with even one value that contradicts those things would be the equivalent of a strict Bible believing Protestant marrying a more liberal “Christian” who believed sometimes the Bible could be disregarded (say, they thought abortion was okay), and not caring if the liberal spouse instilled such values into the children. If you’ll look at it that way (and I’m not trying to offend anyone; it’s honestly the best analogy I can find) then you’ll see why this matter is so important to Catholics. You may even agree to do more to help them raise the children Catholic if you come to appreciate the situation a Catholic parent is in.
For those Catholics already in such marriages who unfortunately didn’t take these things into account, realize that God expects you to remain faithful to your marriage, even if your Spouse fails to appreciate your duties as a Catholic parent…as an unmarried person, I humbly submit these suggestions: Just lovingly do everything presently in your power personally to rear the children Catholic, and pray that they will not be swayed away from the Faith. Try to get your Spouse to understand your duties and respect them, even if they don’t embrace your efforts themselves. Be respectful of your Spouse’s faith, never teaching your children to antagonize them and not doing so yourself, but at the same time be uncompromising in the way you rear your children as faithful Catholics. And again, pray, pray, pray.
C
cmmamula
Guest
Your right, they don’t have to make the vow of poverty, or calibacy. Two things that the Catholic church loves to convey of their preist. Have you visited the vatican? Lord, theres enough gold in that place to sell and feed so many hungry children, it makes me sick.
And again, your right I didn’t bring up much about the Bible, we weren’t taught much about the bible in cathecism classes. Only from the catechist book. My son went to a Catholic school, thankfully, he learned much about the bible. NOT from catechism. You made it feel like you were bringing out different feelings, and you didn’t bring anything out that I don’t already know about myself. Unlike most Catholics, I fight with things I see the Catholics do everyday. Many things make me ashamed of our church. Just because I’m Catholic, doesn’t make me better than anyone, I simply have different beliefs. That’s what makes me different than most Catholics. And I still say to have a debate among a catholic perishoner and another religion perishoner, on the bible, they’d put us to shame! Like it or not. I don’t care.
And you have done nothing than put more of a gear between the church and I for many reasons in this post. See, again, I believe God is everywhere, not just in the church. And my prayers are no different than yours.
And again, your right I didn’t bring up much about the Bible, we weren’t taught much about the bible in cathecism classes. Only from the catechist book. My son went to a Catholic school, thankfully, he learned much about the bible. NOT from catechism. You made it feel like you were bringing out different feelings, and you didn’t bring anything out that I don’t already know about myself. Unlike most Catholics, I fight with things I see the Catholics do everyday. Many things make me ashamed of our church. Just because I’m Catholic, doesn’t make me better than anyone, I simply have different beliefs. That’s what makes me different than most Catholics. And I still say to have a debate among a catholic perishoner and another religion perishoner, on the bible, they’d put us to shame! Like it or not. I don’t care.
And you have done nothing than put more of a gear between the church and I for many reasons in this post. See, again, I believe God is everywhere, not just in the church. And my prayers are no different than yours.
F
fled
Guest
I would be careful in presuming the nature of God’s intimate relationship with one of His children.
My patron Saint; Jeanne D’Arc was ignorantly destroyed by the Church as she went about doing God’s will. Do I believe the Church’s teachings are free from error yes. But some of that inerrancy came in hindsight as well.
JP
A
agapewolf
Guest
Latin rite priests do make a vow of celabacy. Where in the world are you getting your information from? You are flying off the handle about so many different random things that have no basis in fact.
loves to convey in their priest? What does this even mean?
C
cmmamula
Guest
Of course you avoid the comment about the gold, huh?
I’m really done with you, you do nothing but make me wanna run faster from the church, not turn to the church. As you should be doing, since you work there.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Why shouldn’t God’s house be beautiful? God commanded there to be gold, and silver, and all kinds of statues and images in the Temple, too. Read the story of Solomon in the Books of the Kings.
So, yeah, we have gold in our churches. There’s nothing “un-Biblical” about it, either.
No where in the Bible do you see God commanding HIs place to be a bare four walls and non-descript floor and roof that can be repurposed into an auditorium or basketball court, for when we get tired of worshipping Him.
A
agapewolf
Guest
I wasn’t avoiding anything. And how exactly do my comments make you want to run faster from the church? you yourself said you were Catholic. Catholics don’t let comments from one person on a forum make them turn away from the one holy true Catholic apostolic church.
I’ve done nothing but actually answer you and correct you and squash ridiculous and outrageous claims that have no basis. This should make you see that what you THOUGHT the church was is indeed, not what it really is. That maybe you should do some of your own research of authentic Catholic teaching to see what is trully there and you are missing.
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
Wow! Bet you never guessed what a can-o’-snakes your question would open up! Geez, cmmamula and agapewolf… take it elsewhere. You may not have noticed, but you’re slightly off-topic.
I’ve run into a few other mixed-marriage folks on CAF, and I’ll see if I can ask them to contribute. I am the Baptist husband in our marriage.
You can get a fair idea of some of the kinds of prejudicial nonsense run into by people in mixed-tradition relationships from this thread:
In particular, it’s just a sad fact that in most mixed-tradition relationships (or interchurch, if you prefer), one or both partners do not take their tradition particularly seriously. This very reasonably prejudices practicing traditionalists against the rest of us. A piece of advice for the interchuch couple: don’t get mad or upset about this prejudice, it’s quite normal and natural. Demonstrate your maturity through calmness and reasonable answers to the challenges good-hearted people will give you.
Oddly enough, interchurch relationships are one area where the Anglicans really have a huge lead over the rest of us. The Association of Interchurch Families may be a huge help to you. My wife and I were told about them during Engaged Encounter, but I lost the URL and couldn’t find them until well after we had worked things out ourselves anyway. So I can’t testify as to how helpful they are to non-Episcopal-Catholic marriages.
I’ll write a couple of posts about difficulties and making it work later. I’ll close this one with a quote from John Paul II, made to mixed-marriage couples during his visit to England in 1982:
“You live in your marriages the hopes and the difficulties of the path to Christian Unity.”
K
kage_ar
Guest
Second request that the OP explain what was meant by the below:
"Originally Posted by cmmamula forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/viewpost.gif
*.
So tell me, why do you think the church started letting mixed marriages have a ceremony? ."*
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
The greatest complication is marriage itself. Anytime two people who think differently, act differently, feel differently, and have completely different histories try to become one person, well, you have a recipe for complexity. Anyone who tries to tell you “this is the most important issue in marriage” or “that is the most important thing to work out first” is only telling you about their experience with marriage. Their experience may or may not be relevant to yours.
Having said that, adding different religious traditions to the mix, especially those that have a long history of, well, trying to kill each other, seriously adds to the complexity. It’s far better, but not unlike, marrying someone who struggles with a gambling addiction or a past history of sexual abuse. It adds complications. No question about it.
However, which complications it adds vary from couple to couple. The two most commonly expressed concerns are “will you use contraception” and “will you raise the kids Catholic”. There are plenty of other issues that can become huge problems. How will you spend money? How will you contribute to each of your churches? How far away from extended family are you willing to live? What sort of jobs are acceptable to take? What sort of medical decisions are acceptable for your family, from vaccinations to end-of-life decisions? What kind of food will you eat? How will you educate your children?
Each person in the relationship may be surprised to find out how much their tradition actually does have to say about those decisions. If they think they know what it has to say, they may be surprised to find out that the details are rather different than what they’d been led to believe.
In my opinion, here are the general areas of friction:
Money
Sex
Outward church traditions (the actions each tradition expects)
Inward spiritual life (how you each approach spiritual growth)
Outward family traditions (the outward actions of your family)
Inward family life (the attitudes and character displayed by family members at home)
J
Julianna
Guest
The Church allows it…I don’t see the big deal 
and I don’t see why in the world there is such a commotion over it. Some of you need to grow a brain. 
and I don’t see why in the world there is such a commotion over it. Some of you need to grow a brain.
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
In my opinion, there are three key actions to making it work.
First, talk through as many of the issues beforehand as you can.
Second, study your tradition more thoroughly than you ever have before, with possible conflict in mind.
Third, study your partner’s tradition, also with possible conflict in mind.
I think that’s fairly self-explanatory. The FOCCUS test can help with some of the basic potential issues. Talking with married couples of your own tradition, your partner’s, and mixed-marriage traditions, can give good clues to the sorts of things to talk about. Talking to religious professionals and (worried) friends helps too.
Now, you could spend most of your life studying and talking about such things, so don’t be a perfectionist. You won’t run into that much new stuff after four or five good solid conversations.
So here are the biggest hurdles: character and maturity.
Examine your own character, and your partner’s. Read the love chapter, and substitute your name for the word “love.”
_____ is patient.
_____ is kind.
_____ does not boast.
_____ does not envy.
_____ is not proud…
If you can go through that and other teachings on character and you and your partner both come out looking really, really good in light of those passages, then you are definitely
NOT
mature enough for a mixed marriage. If you can make it through without thinking the world would be better off without you, you’re doing pretty well and can go on to my next post: the top ten(?) signs you are not mature enough for a mixed marriage.
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
Since I think character is the main determinant in whether an interchurch marriage “works” or not, here is my top ten list of signs that you are not ready for an interchurch marriage.
You are not mature enough for an interchurch marriage if you…
- …can’t understand what all the fuss is about.
- …are offended that anyone should fuss about you and your decisions, which aren’t their business anyway.
- …find the other church tradition embarrassingly shallow and weak, or generally feel icky there
- …eagerly await the day your partner just OPENS their HEART and finally LISTENS to the HOLY SPIRIT, who will tell them your tradition has been RIGHT ALL ALONG
- …dread hearing from your partner’s friends and relatives, “so, when are you going to convert to our tradition?”
- … haven’t yet been startled to find out that your tradition doesn’t actually teach quite what you had been brought up to believe about a particular issue
- … haven’t yet encountered an area where your partner’s tradition looks like a reversion to an even older practice in your own tradition
- …haven’t yet been dismayed to realize most people in your church don’t agree with a particular teaching in your tradition as much as your partner does
- …can’t think of a single thing your partner’s tradition does better than yours, despite all the tools your tradition has to bring to bear on the problem
- … can answer a question on CAF in thirty seconds flat, without having to stop and think about how complex the question may actually be!
Today we have evil in government, culture, schools, entertainment, and the internet (to name a few) testing the boundaries of our homes. And compared to our brothers and sisters in many other countries, we have it really good. So let’s secure our homes and churches first. Interchurch couples have the connections and interests to combine the strengths of our traditions for mutual protection. We can help if our co-traditionalists will step back and listen, instead of barring the doors against other traditions.
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
This is Crazy Diamond’s wife–I’m the Catholic in the marriage–, and I thought I’d add my two cents, though I’m not a regular participant on the forum.
When we first got married, and even some when we were dating, we got into some intense arguments about who was right, hoping the other would see the truth, etc. Some of the arguments were more fun debates–we’re both pretty intellectual and enjoy some amount of debating as a sport. Some or our discussions were actually pretty upsetting.
After a year or two, I think we got the fighting out of our system, and really don’t do it much anymore. I’ll make jokes about how certain mundane problems could be solved if he would just become Catholic, and usually the context is pretty funny, so we both end up laughing. I tease CD that the real reason he hangs out on Catholic Answers is because he misses our arguments
So why don’t we argue so much anymore? Is it because we don’t care? No. It’s because two children later, and a third on the way, we’ve found that quite frankly, there are a lot of pressing issues children bring to our lives that I haven’t found to be particularly well addressed by either one of our Church traditions. I’m not going to say that someone hasn’t written about it somewhere, because I haven’t done the exhaustive research, but I don’t see these things addressed adequatlely either in homilies, letters from the Bishop, or our Diocesan newspaper–in other words, a lot of important issues CD and I have encountered are not well addressed in our mainstream Catholic and/or Protestant cultures.
I’ll just give a couple examples so you know what I mean, but I have no intention of starting any discussion on these topics. Those who wish to learn more should use a search engine and do some reading of their own. One is nutrition. Children need the best nutrition to grow and it is difficult to find that in the grocery store. We buy our milk from a dairy so it’s fresh and unprocessed. I buy a lot of my meat there too, and just learned this morning of how Tyson chicken has been lying to us about raising their chickens with no antibiotics. One of our daughters has special needs, and her nutrition is paramount. If we slack off with her, she will have major health problems. CD and I at this time do not get a huge amount of support from either church on the importance, even spiritual significance, of taking good care not only of our own Temples of the Holy Spirit, but also the little Temples God has entrusted us with. My priest, who is a very good priest in other respects, eats poorly and is upfront about that, so he can provide no leadership in this area. It’s not that he knows he should eat better but chooses not to; he just doesn’t get how important it is. CD’s church just got a new pastor and we recently had him and his wife over to chat and learned that they do see the importance of good nutrition. The previous pastor and his wife did not and even would put down things I’d said on the subject (we’re all gonna die anyway, so why worry?). A point of trouble for both CD and me was this former pastor’s habit of passing out candy to children at the 9am service! This was not a Catholic vs. Protestant thing and it ranckled both of us. The new pastor has sinced dispensed with this “tradition.” More info on nutrition can be found at www.westonaprice.org.
More to come…
When we first got married, and even some when we were dating, we got into some intense arguments about who was right, hoping the other would see the truth, etc. Some of the arguments were more fun debates–we’re both pretty intellectual and enjoy some amount of debating as a sport. Some or our discussions were actually pretty upsetting.
After a year or two, I think we got the fighting out of our system, and really don’t do it much anymore. I’ll make jokes about how certain mundane problems could be solved if he would just become Catholic, and usually the context is pretty funny, so we both end up laughing. I tease CD that the real reason he hangs out on Catholic Answers is because he misses our arguments
So why don’t we argue so much anymore? Is it because we don’t care? No. It’s because two children later, and a third on the way, we’ve found that quite frankly, there are a lot of pressing issues children bring to our lives that I haven’t found to be particularly well addressed by either one of our Church traditions. I’m not going to say that someone hasn’t written about it somewhere, because I haven’t done the exhaustive research, but I don’t see these things addressed adequatlely either in homilies, letters from the Bishop, or our Diocesan newspaper–in other words, a lot of important issues CD and I have encountered are not well addressed in our mainstream Catholic and/or Protestant cultures.
I’ll just give a couple examples so you know what I mean, but I have no intention of starting any discussion on these topics. Those who wish to learn more should use a search engine and do some reading of their own. One is nutrition. Children need the best nutrition to grow and it is difficult to find that in the grocery store. We buy our milk from a dairy so it’s fresh and unprocessed. I buy a lot of my meat there too, and just learned this morning of how Tyson chicken has been lying to us about raising their chickens with no antibiotics. One of our daughters has special needs, and her nutrition is paramount. If we slack off with her, she will have major health problems. CD and I at this time do not get a huge amount of support from either church on the importance, even spiritual significance, of taking good care not only of our own Temples of the Holy Spirit, but also the little Temples God has entrusted us with. My priest, who is a very good priest in other respects, eats poorly and is upfront about that, so he can provide no leadership in this area. It’s not that he knows he should eat better but chooses not to; he just doesn’t get how important it is. CD’s church just got a new pastor and we recently had him and his wife over to chat and learned that they do see the importance of good nutrition. The previous pastor and his wife did not and even would put down things I’d said on the subject (we’re all gonna die anyway, so why worry?). A point of trouble for both CD and me was this former pastor’s habit of passing out candy to children at the 9am service! This was not a Catholic vs. Protestant thing and it ranckled both of us. The new pastor has sinced dispensed with this “tradition.” More info on nutrition can be found at www.westonaprice.org.
More to come…
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
CD’s wife again…
Another issue is vaccination, and the larger issue of how the Western medical model has hijacked so much of our life, decision making, and even spirituality. A great book on this subject is Confessions of a Medical Heretic by John Mendelsohn for those who want to know more. Again, not to start a discussion on vaccination (google it if you want to know more), but after painstaking research, CD and I decided the whole practice was based on at best flawed scientific enquiry and at worst flat our deception and that there was no good reason for us to vaccinate our children. Let’s just say for the sake of argument for a minute that we are right about vaccination being a huge deception. How has the Catholic Church addressed vaccination? Again, I’m not versed on what every church father may have had to say on the subject but a recent article in our Diocesan newspaper basically said that the ethical thing is to vaccinate and the only real ethical issue concerns when the vaccine itself is made from material derived from aborted fetal tissue. That’s it. The article even promoted the idea that it would be more ethical for me to vaccinate my child with a vaccine derived from monkey or chicken organs rather than aborted fetal tissue without even bringing up the many health and ethical concerns that arise from injecting animal parts into our bodies. I have yet to see any sort of in-depth study on the vaccination issue taken at any level in the Catholic Church. I haven’t looked too hard but I certainly haven’t heard of one and I’d think that something this pressing would be something the Magisterium would want their Faithful to know about–certainly it should rank right up there with the annual Bishop’s Catholic Appeal. But I have learned about the risks of vaccines as well as their ineffectiveness in preventing the diseases they are supposed to prevent (the facts show that all those diseases were already on their way out before vaccines). I find it a little disturbing that at this time, I seem to know more than the Church does on this issue and this is not a comfortable position to be in.
When does the Catholic church have something to say about medical practice? It’s not when the third leading cause of death in this country is iatrogenic (I don’t think that counts abortions or other intentional deaths). It’s when abortion and euthanasia and contraception are involved. The Church has no problem declaring that all those things are evil. Yet I don’t see the Church questioning medical practice in general. Shouldn’t a practice that has resulted in so many abortions and murdered elderly people be taken with at least a small grain of salt? I am a Eucharistic Minister and bring Communion to homebound parishioners. A few years ago I brought Communion for several months to a dear lady who was suffering from pancreatic cancer. I visited her several times during the last week of her life while she was under hospice care at her house. On the table beside her bed were (and I’m not exaggerating) around twenty bottles of prescription medicine! To this day I am not entirely sure if she died of the cancer or if she was done in by hospice through all the pharmaceutical drugs she was given.
When someone in the parish gets sick or hospitalized, the priest will go visit them, annoint them, provide comfort to the patient and the family. When someone is prescribed surgery, it is considered a given that it’s the right thing to do. The priest comes and provides sacraments like Annointing of the Sick and Reconcilliation, people like me may bring them Communion, but other than that, we don’t question what is being done to them by the doctors, the hospitals, and the medical profession at large. We don’t ask what’s in their prescription vials and whether or not it could be making them sicker, and we certainly don’t counsel them to seek not only a second opition, but an alternate paradigm. When we approached our priest to annoint our daughter for her health issue, which had the potential to involve surgery, we didn’t receive any such counseling, and there was an implicit assumption on the priest’s part (until we later made our decision and told him otherwise) that we would go with the surgery and other medical trappings. All the knowledge outside the medical model came from our own initiative.
I mention this again not so much to lecture on medicine, but to mention an issue that has touched our lives and against which we have had to guard ourselves and our children with little direct support or even understanding from the Catholic Church. As I alluded to before, we didn’t find a whole lot of support from CD’s church either, although his new pastor has shown more of an understanding when we brought it up. And to be fair, we did find support from individuals in both churches, just not ither church itself, if that makes sense.
more in a bit…
Another issue is vaccination, and the larger issue of how the Western medical model has hijacked so much of our life, decision making, and even spirituality. A great book on this subject is Confessions of a Medical Heretic by John Mendelsohn for those who want to know more. Again, not to start a discussion on vaccination (google it if you want to know more), but after painstaking research, CD and I decided the whole practice was based on at best flawed scientific enquiry and at worst flat our deception and that there was no good reason for us to vaccinate our children. Let’s just say for the sake of argument for a minute that we are right about vaccination being a huge deception. How has the Catholic Church addressed vaccination? Again, I’m not versed on what every church father may have had to say on the subject but a recent article in our Diocesan newspaper basically said that the ethical thing is to vaccinate and the only real ethical issue concerns when the vaccine itself is made from material derived from aborted fetal tissue. That’s it. The article even promoted the idea that it would be more ethical for me to vaccinate my child with a vaccine derived from monkey or chicken organs rather than aborted fetal tissue without even bringing up the many health and ethical concerns that arise from injecting animal parts into our bodies. I have yet to see any sort of in-depth study on the vaccination issue taken at any level in the Catholic Church. I haven’t looked too hard but I certainly haven’t heard of one and I’d think that something this pressing would be something the Magisterium would want their Faithful to know about–certainly it should rank right up there with the annual Bishop’s Catholic Appeal. But I have learned about the risks of vaccines as well as their ineffectiveness in preventing the diseases they are supposed to prevent (the facts show that all those diseases were already on their way out before vaccines). I find it a little disturbing that at this time, I seem to know more than the Church does on this issue and this is not a comfortable position to be in.
When does the Catholic church have something to say about medical practice? It’s not when the third leading cause of death in this country is iatrogenic (I don’t think that counts abortions or other intentional deaths). It’s when abortion and euthanasia and contraception are involved. The Church has no problem declaring that all those things are evil. Yet I don’t see the Church questioning medical practice in general. Shouldn’t a practice that has resulted in so many abortions and murdered elderly people be taken with at least a small grain of salt? I am a Eucharistic Minister and bring Communion to homebound parishioners. A few years ago I brought Communion for several months to a dear lady who was suffering from pancreatic cancer. I visited her several times during the last week of her life while she was under hospice care at her house. On the table beside her bed were (and I’m not exaggerating) around twenty bottles of prescription medicine! To this day I am not entirely sure if she died of the cancer or if she was done in by hospice through all the pharmaceutical drugs she was given.
When someone in the parish gets sick or hospitalized, the priest will go visit them, annoint them, provide comfort to the patient and the family. When someone is prescribed surgery, it is considered a given that it’s the right thing to do. The priest comes and provides sacraments like Annointing of the Sick and Reconcilliation, people like me may bring them Communion, but other than that, we don’t question what is being done to them by the doctors, the hospitals, and the medical profession at large. We don’t ask what’s in their prescription vials and whether or not it could be making them sicker, and we certainly don’t counsel them to seek not only a second opition, but an alternate paradigm. When we approached our priest to annoint our daughter for her health issue, which had the potential to involve surgery, we didn’t receive any such counseling, and there was an implicit assumption on the priest’s part (until we later made our decision and told him otherwise) that we would go with the surgery and other medical trappings. All the knowledge outside the medical model came from our own initiative.
I mention this again not so much to lecture on medicine, but to mention an issue that has touched our lives and against which we have had to guard ourselves and our children with little direct support or even understanding from the Catholic Church. As I alluded to before, we didn’t find a whole lot of support from CD’s church either, although his new pastor has shown more of an understanding when we brought it up. And to be fair, we did find support from individuals in both churches, just not ither church itself, if that makes sense.
more in a bit…
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
CD’s wife again…
One issue I think the Catholic Church has done a fantastic job with has been the contraception issue. Kudos to Couple to Couple League for all their hard work in educating Catholics, Protestants, and even nonChristians about the issues. When CD and I were dating I made it clear that was non negotiable. We would use NFP until we were ready to have children. CD honestly hadn’t thought much about the issue but went along. After taking the NFP class together, he realized that it would have been a grave evil to have allowed his wife to go on the pill for the health reasons to me alone, never mind the birth control part. It actually turned out to be an easy issue for us. It helped that we both wanted children–as many as God will give us–for him to accept that even the more medically benign forms of contraception would have no place in our marriage. I chose a man who has fundamental good character, which means that it’s not going to take much to persuade him on an issue where the truth is pretty darned obvious. Now, if we could get the rest of the Catholics to understand the truth about contraception and be as fervent in upholding Church Teaching on the matter as my Protestant husband…
In summary, when it was just the two of us, Theology seemed like a big deal, for the most part, the only issue on our radar, so we went at it with each other. Then we had children or simply grew up, and we realized that there is a lot out there that’s just as important, and in many ways more immediate, that we do agree on wholeheartedly. In fact, I have found more areas of agreement with my nonCatholic husband than I have found with my Catholic family of origin and many Catholic friends and acquaintances I have made over the years. I don’t want to say that I couldn’t have found a Catholic man who would have also been in agreement with me on those other life impacting issues. Honestly, if I could change one thing about my husband, it would be that he’d also be Catholic. I just recognize that God has given me so much in him and that because I am married to him, my children are in a very good place.
There are lots of ways of living that my husband and I are in complete agreement on that aren’t exactly mainstream and it’s a real blessing that I have found in my life partner a kindred spirit. One other non-mainstream decision we made was to not have television in our home. How many people, Catholic or Protestant, out there would go for that? I could also mention parenting style and homeschooling, on which we also agree. We can stand together in this world, and even be nonconformist about a lot of things within our own churches while holding deep respect for our different heritages.
Does this mean I don’t worry about raising the kids Catholic? No. I am a little worried about how we’re going to handle things when our oldest reaches first Communion age. Both our children have been baptized in the Catholic Church and CD was supportive of that. It was a bit dicey to work out but we did. I trust that we’ll work it out with first Communion as well.
more later…
One issue I think the Catholic Church has done a fantastic job with has been the contraception issue. Kudos to Couple to Couple League for all their hard work in educating Catholics, Protestants, and even nonChristians about the issues. When CD and I were dating I made it clear that was non negotiable. We would use NFP until we were ready to have children. CD honestly hadn’t thought much about the issue but went along. After taking the NFP class together, he realized that it would have been a grave evil to have allowed his wife to go on the pill for the health reasons to me alone, never mind the birth control part. It actually turned out to be an easy issue for us. It helped that we both wanted children–as many as God will give us–for him to accept that even the more medically benign forms of contraception would have no place in our marriage. I chose a man who has fundamental good character, which means that it’s not going to take much to persuade him on an issue where the truth is pretty darned obvious. Now, if we could get the rest of the Catholics to understand the truth about contraception and be as fervent in upholding Church Teaching on the matter as my Protestant husband…
In summary, when it was just the two of us, Theology seemed like a big deal, for the most part, the only issue on our radar, so we went at it with each other. Then we had children or simply grew up, and we realized that there is a lot out there that’s just as important, and in many ways more immediate, that we do agree on wholeheartedly. In fact, I have found more areas of agreement with my nonCatholic husband than I have found with my Catholic family of origin and many Catholic friends and acquaintances I have made over the years. I don’t want to say that I couldn’t have found a Catholic man who would have also been in agreement with me on those other life impacting issues. Honestly, if I could change one thing about my husband, it would be that he’d also be Catholic. I just recognize that God has given me so much in him and that because I am married to him, my children are in a very good place.
There are lots of ways of living that my husband and I are in complete agreement on that aren’t exactly mainstream and it’s a real blessing that I have found in my life partner a kindred spirit. One other non-mainstream decision we made was to not have television in our home. How many people, Catholic or Protestant, out there would go for that? I could also mention parenting style and homeschooling, on which we also agree. We can stand together in this world, and even be nonconformist about a lot of things within our own churches while holding deep respect for our different heritages.
Does this mean I don’t worry about raising the kids Catholic? No. I am a little worried about how we’re going to handle things when our oldest reaches first Communion age. Both our children have been baptized in the Catholic Church and CD was supportive of that. It was a bit dicey to work out but we did. I trust that we’ll work it out with first Communion as well.
more later…
C
Crazy_Diamond
Guest
CD’s wife again
Does this mean I don’t think Catholic Teaching matters? No. I think it matters a great deal, and it’s no secret between us that I think CD is wrong on some Theological matters.
It’s just that there is a lot of Theology that is interesting to discuss but doesn’t have immediate bearing on our God-given responsibility to raise our children in the best way we know how. I have learned that when Jesus said we are to be in the world but not of the world, he meant that we were to go against the world in absolutely everything. He didn’t just mean spiritual matters.
I often hear people share about how radical it is to be part of a church community in today’s world. It’s true that going to church is a way to take a stand in some way, but it is only the beginning. We need to take a stand in all areas of our life. Of course it is difficult for us to do that and often we don’t even realize we are doing things the world’s way until it’s pointed out to us. God will only ultimately hold us responsible for what we know.
I would look at unity in marriage (as in both spouses being Catholic–I do believe the Catholic Church is the true Church) as being an important issue. I would look at other matters I brought up (and some I didn’t) as also being important issues in which unity is important. Then I have to take a step back and recognize that no matter who I marry, I’m not going to find the absolutely perfect combination because we live in a fallen world and we ourselves are fallen. I have to look at the important issues where my husband and I disagree along with the important issues where we do agree and have to conclude that it’s a very good combination.
Did I know all this before we got married? No. I had no idea while we were dating that we’d wind up being nonvaccinating parents. How did CD and I know we were right for each other even without knowing all those issues that we would eventually agree on? I’m not sure I know that answer. I think a huge part was that I recognized from the beginning that he was a man of good character. He was honest, open, ethical. His faith in God was very important to him. We’d known each other for a long time before we dated and I’d seen evidence of his good character on many occasions.
I think ultimately that’s what it comes down to. Does the one you are thinking of marrying have good character? By that I mean in part, do they care about God and faith? In some ways the fact that CD hasn’t immediately become Catholic for my sake also says a lot about his deep faith and character. Should he become Catholic in the future I will be confident it’s for the right reasons. Is your potential mate open to truth no matter how uncomfortable it might be to face? Can he face himself at his worst and make honest and lasting life changes while still valuing himself? Does he show basic charity to others? Look in the Bible and Catechism for other definitions of good character, such as 1 Corinthians 13, aka the Love chapter. Ask God to give you wisdom. Work on your own character.
If you and your spouse have good character, you can make it even in the face of big disagreements. If you or your mate don’t have good character, all the agreement you have won’t help much. Marriage and life in general is challenging and you need good character to make it as a good person.
OK, I think I’m done now. Hope this helps or at least informs.
CD’s happy Catholic wife.
Does this mean I don’t think Catholic Teaching matters? No. I think it matters a great deal, and it’s no secret between us that I think CD is wrong on some Theological matters.
It’s just that there is a lot of Theology that is interesting to discuss but doesn’t have immediate bearing on our God-given responsibility to raise our children in the best way we know how. I have learned that when Jesus said we are to be in the world but not of the world, he meant that we were to go against the world in absolutely everything. He didn’t just mean spiritual matters.
I often hear people share about how radical it is to be part of a church community in today’s world. It’s true that going to church is a way to take a stand in some way, but it is only the beginning. We need to take a stand in all areas of our life. Of course it is difficult for us to do that and often we don’t even realize we are doing things the world’s way until it’s pointed out to us. God will only ultimately hold us responsible for what we know.
I would look at unity in marriage (as in both spouses being Catholic–I do believe the Catholic Church is the true Church) as being an important issue. I would look at other matters I brought up (and some I didn’t) as also being important issues in which unity is important. Then I have to take a step back and recognize that no matter who I marry, I’m not going to find the absolutely perfect combination because we live in a fallen world and we ourselves are fallen. I have to look at the important issues where my husband and I disagree along with the important issues where we do agree and have to conclude that it’s a very good combination.
Did I know all this before we got married? No. I had no idea while we were dating that we’d wind up being nonvaccinating parents. How did CD and I know we were right for each other even without knowing all those issues that we would eventually agree on? I’m not sure I know that answer. I think a huge part was that I recognized from the beginning that he was a man of good character. He was honest, open, ethical. His faith in God was very important to him. We’d known each other for a long time before we dated and I’d seen evidence of his good character on many occasions.
I think ultimately that’s what it comes down to. Does the one you are thinking of marrying have good character? By that I mean in part, do they care about God and faith? In some ways the fact that CD hasn’t immediately become Catholic for my sake also says a lot about his deep faith and character. Should he become Catholic in the future I will be confident it’s for the right reasons. Is your potential mate open to truth no matter how uncomfortable it might be to face? Can he face himself at his worst and make honest and lasting life changes while still valuing himself? Does he show basic charity to others? Look in the Bible and Catechism for other definitions of good character, such as 1 Corinthians 13, aka the Love chapter. Ask God to give you wisdom. Work on your own character.
If you and your spouse have good character, you can make it even in the face of big disagreements. If you or your mate don’t have good character, all the agreement you have won’t help much. Marriage and life in general is challenging and you need good character to make it as a good person.
OK, I think I’m done now. Hope this helps or at least informs.
CD’s happy Catholic wife.
K
kage_ar
Guest
As parents, our first responsibility is to do everything within our power to help our children get to heaven.
My child will not go to hell because of candy or antibiotics in chicken. My child may go to hell if they are taught that all faith is equal and it does not matter as long as you are a good person. My child may go to hell because they choose a path of mortal sin, choose to miss mass (it is not important that my parent goes to mass, so, I can stay home too…).
My child will not go to hell because of candy or antibiotics in chicken. My child may go to hell if they are taught that all faith is equal and it does not matter as long as you are a good person. My child may go to hell because they choose a path of mortal sin, choose to miss mass (it is not important that my parent goes to mass, so, I can stay home too…).
A
Albert15
Guest
I just broke up with my Protestant girlfriend of almost two years about 2 1/2 weeks ago. I’m Catholic and the religious differences were always a big problem in our relationship, especially when it came to Mary. We thought we would be able to work it out, but things only got worse. She is a great woman and we are working on maintaining a friendship, but we couldn’t be together anymore.
My advice for anyone thinking about getting into an interfaith relationship: be very cautious and discuss it a lot BEFORE dating. We were actively discussing marriage, but it wouldn’t have worked out, mostly because of the religious differences.
Also - pray A LOT, pray together.
My advice for anyone thinking about getting into an interfaith relationship: be very cautious and discuss it a lot BEFORE dating. We were actively discussing marriage, but it wouldn’t have worked out, mostly because of the religious differences.
Also - pray A LOT, pray together.
- Status