Catholics Marrying Protestants

[Crazy_Diamond]

My child may go to hell if they are taught that all faith is equal and it does not matter as long as you are a good person.

This is one of the big, legitimate criticisms of interchurch relationships. Most of them do have at least one partner that doesn’t take their own tradition particularly seriously. It can be tough demonstrating to skeptics that both of you do. It’s a lot easier for people to believe that the couple has just fallen for a secularist “indifferentism.”

Probably half of the folks who wonder about us are convinced by the fact that our whole family goes to both churches each weekend. For many people, church attendance is the primary sign that you take your tradition seriously.

Another quarter are convinced if they talk to us and challenge us on it. We make no secret of our theological and ecclesiological differences. We have no problem discussing them with anybody, or the ways we’ve found points of commonality many wouldn’t think possible. (My wife is convinced hers is the true church; I’m convinced Scripture is meant as the standard to test theological teachings. Neither of us has any doubt that our children will come to the same conclusions we have, but neither of us will be devastated if it doesn’t happen right away. Each of us has seen plenty of people leave the tradition they grew up in and come back. Each of us has seen plenty of converts to our own way of thinking. Neither of us is worried our children will wind up stupid.)

The last quarter of people simply aren’t convinced you’re serious unless you agree with them on every point they bring up. Protestants and Catholics alike have their versions of people who are “more Catholic than the Pope.” It’s best to be loving and gentle and not worry too much about those sorts of people. They are too immature in their faith to have a strong grasp of its core rather than its externalities. They’ll grow up too, and then you can have an adult conversation with them.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I just broke up with my Protestant girlfriend of almost two years about 2 1/2 weeks ago. I’m Catholic and the religious differences were always a big problem in our relationship, especially when it came to Mary. We thought we would be able to work it out, but things only got worse. She is a great woman and we are working on maintaining a friendship, but we couldn’t be together anymore.

Marian devotions and Six-day creationism can be impossible barriers to a Catholic-Protestant relationship, depending on how far along the spectrum the person’s beliefs and practices lie. I wouldn’t have been able to marry a “Mary-chaser” (my wife’s word, not mine, for people who travel to every Marian apparition site they can afford) and I don’t think she could have married somone who held strongly to six-day creationism. There are folks in each of our traditions who don’t understand how anyone can be serious about that tradition without holding to their beliefs and practices on those two subjects. Those are the types I talked about above who don’t have a good grasp on the core of their faith.

My advice for anyone thinking about getting into an interfaith relationship: be very cautious and discuss it a lot BEFORE dating. We were actively discussing marriage, but it wouldn’t have worked out, mostly because of the religious differences.
Also - pray A LOT, pray together.

Excellent advice.

 

[jmcrae]

This is one of the big, legitimate criticisms of interchurch relationships. Most of them do have at least one partner that doesn’t take their own tradition particularly seriously. It can be tough demonstrating to skeptics that both of you do. It’s a lot easier for people to believe that the couple has just fallen for a secularist “indifferentism.”

Probably half of the folks who wonder about us are convinced by the fact that our whole family goes to both churches each weekend. For many people, church attendance is the primary sign that you take your tradition seriously.

Aren’t your actions actually saying that it doesn’t matter which religion you practice - both the Baptist and the Catholic are equally true, and any differences in theology between them are merely matters of human opinion - take it or leave it as you will?

(Isn’t that the definition of the heresy of Indifferentism - that any religion is as good as any other; it doesn’t matter as long as you have good intentions?)

I don’t know if that idea goes contrary to what Baptists believe, but I’m quite certain that it goes contrary to what the Catholic Church believes, which is that the entire deposit of the Catholic faith comes from Jesus Christ, and is not a matter for personal opinions, but required for belief if you want to go to Heaven.

 

[kage_ar]

When your child comes to you and says "mom and dad, I need to know something. We go to one Church that teaches that the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ. The other Church says that Communion is a very important symbol, but, not the real flesh and blood of Jesus.

These ideas oppose each other, so, who is right?"

How will you answer that question?

 

[jmcrae]

When your child comes to you and says "mom and dad, I need to know something. We go to one Church that teaches that the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ. The other Church says that Communion is a very important symbol, but, not the real flesh and blood of Jesus.

These ideas oppose each other, so, who is right?"

How will you answer that question?

I am also thinking that today when I was teaching a First Reconciliation class, I reminded the children that Jesus wants us to go to Confession with His priest at least once per year - this is one of the tasks that He has set for us to do, while we are waiting for Him to return.

Our reading was this morning’s Gospel, about the servants who had to do their tasks even when the Master was away.

Imagine a child going home with that information to a non-Catholic parent. “Hey, Dad, did you know that you will be like the unworthy servant who fell asleep, if you don’t go to Confession at least once a year?”

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

The bible teaches that we aren’t to be unequally yoked with unbelievers… and that is the reason for it.

I was raised Catholic which never bothered my husband much as I wasn’t really active as an adult, but since joining a pentecostal church and re-dedicating my life to Jesus it is very hard trying to follow God and please my unbelieving husband. He doesn’t understand the change I’ve gone through, and my children know the differences to what we believe and are going to choose their own way. I just hope I can be a good influence on them so they choose God’s way.

This is the reason we aren’t to be unequally yoked. If you can avoid partnering with a non-believer or a non-catholic then I suggest you do it. It will save you a lot of future pain.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Aren’t your actions actually saying that it doesn’t matter which religion you practice - both the Baptist and the Catholic are equally true, and any differences in theology between them are merely matters of human opinion - take it or leave it as you will?

No. Neither of us claims such a goofy thing. In the areas of disagreement, we each believe our own tradition to be correct and the other tradition to be wrong. However, there is a core that is common to both. That core is the basis on which Catholics and Baptists consider each other to be co-religionists and not members of utterly different faiths. Baptists have been invited to attend Catholic councils of bishops (as observers, not voting participants); Baptists invite Catholic bishops as observers to some Baptist councils (again, as observers, not voting participants). There would be no point to either action if we found every difference between us so objectionable that conversion was required before we could interact in any other way.

That much is obvious.

A more subtle question, however, is “If the differences don’t drive you crazy, how can you really be taking them seriously?” One answer is that each of our traditions recognizes a hierarchy of importance in differences. Both traditions believe “you shall have no other gods before me” is one of the most important. Both believe God judges inward character as more important than public actions. My wife worships God more highly than a great many gods our culture puts in front of us - life, liberty, pleasure, wealth. I could have found a great many Baptist women who prefer any of those things to the Creator, but who ostensibly could state a creed more similar to mine. I think she finds the same to be true of me. We both admire each other’s character.

Some of the areas of disagreement separate us more from people supposedly within our tradition than many outside it. Baptists believe, supposedly, that Scripture is the standard by which we measure every teaching. Catholics believe, supposedly, that Vatican teaching of Tradition and Scripture is the standard. Yet many absorb more of the teaching of television than either of the authorities claimed. I won’t bore you with a long list of examples. I won’t claim we are each lily-pure innocent of this problem. However, both of us find refreshing each others’ willingness to challenge not only other people’s beliefs and practices, but our own, and our culture’s.

It’s very challenging to put your own actions and assumptions up to the standard you claim and ask “does it really teach what I’ve been thinking all this time? Whatever it does teach, do I match it?” is challenging. It takes a lot of confidence in your tradition to do that. She’s got that confidence, and so do I.

So how will it affect our children? The Alliance for Interchurch Families claims that children simply don’t grow up confused by strong differences between traditions any more than they grow up confused by mom and dad speaking different languages. In fact, they’ll have a clearer understanding of each than those who grow up without any obvious external reference points. I grew up in a majority Catholic area. It didn’t confuse me, and I became a stronger, more knowledgeable Protestant because of it. I expect, whatever choices our children make, for the same to happen with them. Even if they do make the (ahem!) wrong choice, I’ve known quite a few people who came to the right one later in life. I’m not worried that God will let my children slip through his fingers. Nor do I feel I have to be in control every step of the way. I would just get in the way of the Holy Spirit if I tried to do that.

(Isn’t that the definition of the heresy of Indifferentism - that any religion is as good as any other; it doesn’t matter as long as you have good intentions?)

You are basically correct as to its definition. Many interchurch couples do, in fact, “solve” their disagreements by one or both coming to believe this error. Sigh. Sad, but true.

I don’t know if that idea goes contrary to what Baptists believe, but I’m quite certain that it goes contrary to what the Catholic Church believes, which is that the entire deposit of the Catholic faith comes from Jesus Christ, and is not a matter for personal opinions, but required for belief if you want to go to Heaven.

-emphasis due to Crazy Diamond

I think that’s a highly simplistic version of “what the Catholic Church believes.” The Vatican allows a great deal of disagreement and discussion over a tremendous range of issues amongst Catholics. I’ve never heard that the bishops who vote against a winning proposition in a council go to hell because they thought differently.

The Vatican does teach, hilariously to my mind, that the only reason non-Catholics can go to heaven is because God extends a general grace to the world through the papacy. I may find the reasoning amusing, but the conclusion is accurate: there is a general grace extended, and anyone can find salvation in Jesus Christ. Catholics undoubtedly find my Scriptural reasoning just as funny, but we come to the same conclusion. That is the case in many areas between Catholics and Baptists. We come to the same conclusions by different routes.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

When your child comes to you and says "mom and dad, I need to know something. We go to one Church that teaches that the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ. The other Church says that Communion is a very important symbol, but, not the real flesh and blood of Jesus.

These ideas oppose each other, so, who is right?"

How will you answer that question?

If they have to ask, we’ll know we’ve been teaching them very poorly indeed. We expect to tell them straight up about all of the differences we know of during their early education. We plan to teach them the source authority for each teaching and the history if its development (who taught it when and what teachings they were arguing against). As they mature, we expect to teach them to re-evaluate all of the things they learned from us when they were small, so as to gain an adult understanding of the faith. We want the faith to be their own, and not merely regurgitated pablum.

Beyond that, we expect to teach them also how Christian traditions outside our own view these teachings. They’ll learn how the Orthodox view church councils, how the Copts view the Trinity, how Lutherans view the Real Presence… they’ll learn why we hold to the views we do, and how we’re able to live with each other without being driven crazy by those things.

Most importantly, we’ll teach them to evaluate the surrounding culture and their own actions by the different Christian traditions (emphasizing our own, of course). Each tradition often has a separate, but valid, critique of an action and a culture. I think this perspective will help them throw themselves on God’s mercy and seek out his wisdom, rather than stepping out in the teaching of a tradition they barely understand. I can’t tell you how embarrassing my fellow Baptists can be at times, criticizing things in other traditions and cultures they’ve never studied. Seeing Catholics do so isn’t nearly as embarrassing, but I hope to have my children grow up with a more mature, thoughtful faith.

 

[jmcrae]

No. Neither of us claims such a goofy thing. In the areas of disagreement, we each believe our own tradition to be correct and the other tradition to be wrong. …] The Alliance for Interchurch Families claims that children simply don’t grow up confused by strong differences between traditions any more than they grow up confused by mom and dad speaking different languages.

Children can grow up to be bilingual. They don’t have one parent saying, “My language speaks only the truth, but your other parent’s language speaks both lies and truth.”

They can say, 'It doesn’t matter which language I speak, as long as I make myself understood to others. I mean the same thing in either one."

They can’t grow up to be members of two different religions, though, nor think that both are saying the same thing in different words.

I think that’s a highly simplistic version of “what the Catholic Church believes.” The Vatican allows a great deal of disagreement and discussion over a tremendous range of issues amongst Catholics. I’ve never heard that the bishops who vote against a winning proposition in a council go to hell because they thought differently.

It’s not really a vote - it’s a consensus. By the end of the Council, all of the Bishops have become convinced of it, or else it cannot become a dogma of the Church.

For example, before the Council of Chalcedon, many of the Bishops were unclear about “true God from true God, true man from true man, consubstantial with the Father” but by the end of that Council, they all believed in it. And indeed, the Council itself decreed, “No one is allowed to profess or to write up or to compose or to devise or to teach others a different faith,” and this, too, was agreed to by consensus of all of the Bishops.

The Vatican does teach, hilariously to my mind, that the only reason non-Catholics can go to heaven is because God extends a general grace to the world through the papacy.

Well, and this is true. For example, many Protestants say that they became Christians by reading the New Testament, and it had nothing to do with any church - well, you then have to ask them, where did the New Testament come from?

Pope Innocent I gave us the New Testament in 405 AD, after examining the findings of three local Councils -Rome, Hippo, and Carthage - so here we have a person who, because Pope Innocent gave us the New Testament, was able to come into a relationship with Jesus Christ, when he encountered the New Testament.

So, he was saved by means of the Papacy, even though he was completely unaware of that fact, since he (obviously) didn’t think to wonder where the New Testament actually came from - he says, “From God,” and that’s all the answer he feels he needs. The complications of how God got it to him are of no interest to him. It does not occur to him that it was the work of Pope Innocent I that gave him his New Testament - that without the Pope and without the Church, he would not have a New Testament at all, since there would have been no one to write it, no one to defend it, no one to research it, no one to examine it and compare it with the Holy Tradition of the Apostles, no one to seek over the whole world to gather up the books that belong in it, or to sift carefully through the books and remove those that don’t belong, or to translate it into a language that can be understood by modern day people, and put it conveniently into a codex that fits nicely on a bookshelf without losing any of the pages.

But he doesn’t care about any of that. He says, “I was saved by the New Testament, and not by any man or any Church, and certainly not the Catholic Church,” even though it is a Catholic Pope, and three Councils of Catholic Bishops, plus the priest St. Jerome, and the many unknown Catholic sisters and monks who assisted St. Jerome in his work, and the Guild of St. Paul copying the text over and over and over again to make many copies, and Gutenberg (who was a Catholic) and everyone to whom Gutenberg passed down the knowledge of the printing press, who all worked together to get him his New Testament.

We come to the same conclusions by different routes.

Not really. And not in most cases. You’re right that we share many beliefs in common, because of the fact that the Baptists selected from among Catholic beliefs when they were setting up their religion (since there was no other religion for them to select from, really, and yet be able to still call themselves Christians).

 

[Alix1912]

Minus the ability to receive any of the other six Sacraments, unless they convert to the Catholic faith at some point.

Lutherans actually recognize 3 Sacraments. And few Catholics can partake in all 7 sacraments.

This seems like a sure recipe to instill in them the heresy of Indifferentism - the idea that all religions are equally okay, and that there is no such thing as a true religion; it’s all just people’s opinions.

I disagree…I was raised in the Lutheran Church, but had many friends who were other religions. I did not suffer from indifferentism because I was taught about anb to respect their traditions

Finally, I would say that it’s a huge help to realize, regardless of how deep the disagreements are between your traditions, that you have (if not bigger) more immediate fish to fry. If you are sitting with your partner at 3 a.m., having one of those disagreements beloved of religious intellectuals, and suddenly hear evil men prowling about your house, testing the doors and tapping at windows, your disagreements won’t go away but they’ll seem a lot less immediate. Secure the house first, then figure out exactly how Jesus is getting you to heaven.

Today we have evil in government, culture, schools, entertainment, and the internet (to name a few) testing the boundaries of our homes. And compared to our brothers and sisters in many other countries, we have it really good. So let’s secure our homes and churches first. Interchurch couples have the connections and interests to combine the strengths of our traditions for mutual protection. We can help if our co-traditionalists will step back and listen, instead of barring the doors against other traditions.

Here, here…I really wish we would realize that there are evil forces trying to separate and pull us apart as Christens, and the hositlity and general meaness about interchurch marriages is just helping it along.

I just broke up with my Protestant girlfriend of almost two years about 2 1/2 weeks ago. I’m Catholic and the religious differences were always a big problem in our relationship, especially when it came to Mary. We thought we would be able to work it out, but things only got worse. She is a great woman and we are working on maintaining a friendship, but we couldn’t be together anymore.
My advice for anyone thinking about getting into an interfaith relationship: be very cautious and discuss it a lot BEFORE dating. We were actively discussing marriage, but it wouldn’t have worked out, mostly because of the religious differences.
Also - pray A LOT, pray together.

I agree with you on talking about it before. But for many of us this would not have helped. My husband rediscovered his faith a year after we got married.

When your child comes to you and says "mom and dad, I need to know something. We go to one Church that teaches that the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ. The other Church says that Communion is a very important symbol, but, not the real flesh and blood of Jesus.

These ideas oppose each other, so, who is right?"

How will you answer that question?

Thankfully, my answer will be easy. Both daddy and I and our churchs believe that communion is the body and blood of Christ. Daddy’s church simply won’t let mommy take communion and won’t let daddy take communion at mommy’s church.

Seriously, though we will address it in a manner that addresses both churchs and lets our kids know that the differences are not communion, but in the form and function of the different churches.

 

[jmcrae]

Lutherans actually recognize 3 Sacraments. And few Catholics can partake in all 7 sacraments.

Due to their lack of Apostolic Succession, with the resulting lack of a vaild priesthood, they can only receive two Sacraments - Baptism (which can be conferred by anyone), and Marriage (which is conferred on the couple by each other).

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Children can grow up to be bilingual. They don’t have one parent saying, “My language speaks only the truth, but your other parent’s language speaks both lies and truth.”

All analogies break down at some point. I’m just pointing out the experience of strong mixed-tradition families: the children don’t seem to grow up confused about the beliefs of either tradition.

Whatever their decision, they are able to articulate what they believe and why without condemning the other view; they are able to express respect for the strengths of the other tradition without acceptance of its tenets. They are able to communicate, not just preach. Personally, I consider that a strength and not a weakness.

It’s not really a vote - it’s a consensus. By the end of the Council, all of the Bishops have become convinced of it, or else it cannot become a dogma of the Church.

For example, …snip…]

…where did the New Testament come from?

Pope Innocent I gave us the New Testament in 405 AD…

…snip…]

I’m familiar with the Catholic narrative of church history. It’s been challenging and informative at times to study history with the Catholic view in mind. While I’ve gained much of value that way, as I’ve continued I’ve become increasingly convinced that the Protestant view of church history is the more parsimonious, despite its own problems of oversimplification.

And so what? My wife is equally convinced that the Catholic version makes more sense. Is there some vast difference in intellect between us? I don’t think so. We both have advanced science degrees. Why is it that she is convinced that exposure to the wide range of opinion among Christians in regard to history and theology will result in a clear victory for the Catholic viewpoint? I don’t know, exactly, especially since I have the same view towards the strength of my own tradition’s explanations.

Exactly why our interchurch marriage can function in mutual respect without conversion is apparent from the perspective of my Protestant tradition. Since we view the Scriptures as an authoritative standard completely outside the claims of any denomination or tradition currently existing, we can judge ourselves as critically by its light as we criticize others. We can say “they’ve been right in this one teaching and we got off track” just as easily as “they got off track in this specific area while we managed to keep consistent with Scripure.” There’s no reason we have to accept the full range of what our parents passed on to us - in fact, to fully accept Scripture as the standard of faith we have to subject what they passed on to us to its test. Whatever fails to match Scripture can and should be rejected. So there’s no crisis of faith when I have to say “Protestants screwed up the contraception thing by accepting cultural standards, and it was the Catholics who kept closer to Scripture.” That sort of thing poses no difficulty at all, from the perspective of my tradition.

Now Catholic culture seems to view the totality of its tradition as a package deal. You take one part of it, you must take all. Catholicism is its own authority. I’m not sure exactly how it works for my wife to be able to respect things my tradition does well and wish Catholics did them better. I think she views it as the difference between Vatican teaching and Catholic culture. So, while the Vatican teaches that individual Catholics should know the Scriptures really well, Catholic culture is still reaching toward that ideal. I think she may view Protestants having a greater cultural familiarity with Scripture not as a result of a different fundamental teaching, but because Scripture is all Protestants have left. Without the riches of Catholic tradition to dilute our attention, we’ve focused on the one part that remains. That’s a possibility, but I don’t think that’s quite how she views it. I don’t really understand how she balances it all within the context of her tradition, but that’s probably not much of a surprise since I don’t completely understand her tradition!

To be able to respect a tradition while rejecting certain of its premises requires intellectual and spiritual maturity. Loving the sinner but hating the sin is the same way. We’re all growing in maturity and dealing with very different issues along the way. Just as I would not have any random Christian, at any level of maturity, try to do certain kinds of counseling, I also would not recommend a mixed-tradition marriage to any random Christian at any level of maturity. As I’ve said before, I think that maturity is at least one of the most important foundations of a successful mixed-tradition marriage.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Due to their lack of Apostolic Succession, with the resulting lack of a vaild priesthood, they can only receive two Sacraments - Baptism (which can be conferred by anyone), and Marriage (which is conferred on the couple by each other).

BTW, jmcrae, what is it that you do for a living? I’m stunned to see you’ve been posting an average of 20 posts a day for more than two years.

Alix1912: don’t get distracted by arguing the merits of the Lutheran point of view. So far, jmcrae hasn’t really added anything to the question of how mixed-tradition marriages find ways to work and work well. It’s easy to point out the difficulties, one of which is folks constantly assuming you just need to hear the Catholic view in order to convert. I’d like to hear more from you on how you make it work well.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

-]BTW, jmcrae, what is it that you do for a living?/-] I’m stunned to see you’ve been posting an average of 20 posts a day for more than two years.

Whoops, strike that. I forgot the rule. Not supposed to solicit personal info. Apologies!

 

[Alix1912]

Alix1912: don’t get distracted by arguing the merits of the Lutheran point of view. So far, jmcrae hasn’t really added anything to the question of how mixed-tradition marriages find ways to work and work well. It’s easy to point out the difficulties, one of which is folks constantly assuming you just need to hear the Catholic view in order to convert. I’d like to hear more from you on how you make it work well.

We are still working on making it work. We struggle with a lot of things everyday. So far talking about it and being open have been the best options. That and realizing that others are anxious to judge you and tell you what you are doing wrong. Ignore them and make your own marriage work with the methods that work for you.