Catholics need to stop using the "33,000 denominations" apologetic device

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We should spend more of our energy focusing on strengthening and improving the one Holy catholic and apostolic Church and less time fretting about the correct math in calculating the exact numbers of the others.
 
Michael68 said:
John Martignoni is my source for this number and he is a recognised Apologist, so I will stay with the 33,000
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Suit yourself. But I don’t think Mr. Martignoni is the origin of the number. What interests me is that the number given in such assertions (and this was true from the first time I saw the figures, back around 15 years ago) they tracked the World Christian Encyclopedia numbers, and continued to do so. My conclusion is that the figures are unreferenced chaining, from post to post, blog to blog, with no basis other than the WCE, and little awareness that that is the case…

And as is the really, truly, pertinent point. the WCE defines “denomination” in an idiosyncratic method, which makes their numbers of no use for this sort of give and take. It is not a faulty definition; it’s their definition, for their purpose. And it certainly and absolutely recognizes that the RCC is a single, unitary Church. While counting it as 240 denoms, because it appears in that number of countries. As is done with all the other denoms.

Of course, the real answer to the question “How many denoms?” is “Either 52,000, or some other number, either higher or lower than that, which is not itself known, based on anything but guessing”.
 
Every denomination believes they have sound doctrine. Yet how many profess they have sound doctrine?

What is the difference between “denomination” and “communion”?

Why would a congregation share Communion with others while saying they are separate denominations?

What does it profit to profess having the same Lord, but not follow the same Teachings? But if we gather around the body, then we have communion. Of course the individual’s state of grace depends on their personal walk.
 
GKC said:
It may be 30,000 now. It may be more. No one knows until a common definition of denomination is being used and someone has done an objective and through count using that definition.
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Indeed. And to my mind it becomes doubly problematic when you have hundreds if not thousands of churches out there that define themselves specifically as “non-denominational”, as in having no denomination. Yet their own self identification is being ignored by others to claim they are a denomination unto themselves.

Perhaps that’s the ultimate answer, a new post-denomination term is needed to define Christian sects. And if that’s done Catholics won’t get to argue with the results as they conveniently seem to do with the source of this 33,000 number who also claims there are 200+ Catholic denominations.
 
Neofight said:
We should spend more of our energy focusing on strengthening and improving the one Holy catholic and apostolic Church and less time fretting about the correct math in calculating the exact numbers of the others.
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I agree that it would much more good if Catholics spent their efforts on building up their own church instead of trying to undermine other people’s churches.

As it stands in the world of apologetics, the various sides seem to spend less time providing actual apologia for their faith, while indulging in negative campaigns against other Christians. Ugh. Just explain your own faith, please.
 
rcwitness said:
Every denomination believes they have sound doctrine. Yet how many profess they have sound doctrine?

What is the difference between “denomination” and “communion”?

Why would a congregation share Communion with others while saying they are separate denominations?

What does it profit to profess having the same Lord, but not follow the same Teachings? But if we gather around the body, then we have communion. Of course the individual’s state of grace depends on their personal walk.
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A denomination is a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church if you get down to the base definition.

A communion is a relationship of recognition and acceptance between Christian churches or denominations, or between individual Christians or Christian communities and a church (signified by a willingness to give or receive the Eucharist).

A denomination would join into and share communion with another denomination because they recognize that they recognize that they are both members of the body of Christ that share certain key aspects of the faith while still having differences of opinion on other matters not as key to their faith as Christians. What is gained by doing so is a greater unity as members of the body of Christ and as members of Christ’s universal church. Communing doesn’t negate that most churches profess they have sound doctrine, but rather it’s an acknowledgement that other churches have some key aspects of the same sound doctrine.
 
Neofight said:
We should spend more of our energy focusing on strengthening and improving the one Holy catholic and apostolic Church and less time fretting about the correct math in calculating the exact numbers of the others.
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I would too.
Unfortunately amateur, armchair “apologists” think it gives them some type of advantage. It doesn’t. And so it’s up to us experienced Catholics to set the record straight.
 
I think perhaps a better avenue of debate would be to replace the word ‘denomination’ with ‘authority’. Which authority is a church under? Are there 33,000 ‘authorities’ out there?

Just MHO, if a guy hangs us a shingle, saying there is a ‘church’ at that location (ain’t America great), and HE is the authority. That is not a denomination, that is a cult.
To lump him together with the Episcopal or Methodist down the road seems disingenuous.
 
I never use it anymore. It’s sufficient to say that there are far too many and let it go at that.
Michael68 said:
I don’t think we should stop using this number. It shows the damage done by Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. That’s the reason to keep pointing this out.
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I disagree. This has no more credibility and the same weakness as the infamous 50 million figure that some a-Cs use about the Inquisition. Neither is accurate and both show a lack of honesty in the debate and are therefore useless.
 
Padres1969 said:
Indeed. And to my mind it becomes doubly problematic when you have hundreds if not thousands of churches out there that define themselves specifically as “non-denominational”, as in having no denomination. Yet their own self identification is being ignored by others to claim they are a denomination unto themselves.

Perhaps that’s the ultimate answer, a new post-denomination term is needed to define Christian sects. And if that’s done Catholics won’t get to argue with the results as they conveniently seem to do with the source of this 33,000 number who also claims there are 200+ Catholic denominations.
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It only claims there are 200+ RC denoms, when denom is defined specifically as they define it. And since that means it counts as one denom (for the CWE) for every country it appears in, that definition is not hard to comprehend, or to confirm/refute. How many countries in the world does the RCC have a formal presence in?

Non-denoms would likely be counted the same as the RCC, if they have no higher structural ecclesial organization. Once for every country they have a formal presence in.
 
JustaServant said:
I think perhaps a better avenue of debate would be to replace the word ‘denomination’ with ‘authority’. Which authority is a church under? Are there 33,000 ‘authorities’ out there?

Just MHO, if a guy hangs us a shingle, saying there is a ‘church’ at that location (ain’t America great), and HE is the authority. That is not a denomination, that is a cult.
To lump him together with the Episcopal or Methodist down the road seems disingenuous.
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Are you saying non-denoms are cults? Some do appear that way
 
Michael68 said:
Are you saying non-denoms are cults? Some do appear that way
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No, not what I said.
“Non-denominational” churches are under some type of authority, whether they want to admit it publically or not. A College, a particular camp. A simple look at their Doctrinal statement reveals where that authority lies. They are affiliated with something.
I’m talking about ‘house churches’ or storefront churches that that are LEADER driven. One person in charge.
 
While I agree that the math used to reach that number is greatly flawed, I believe the number might not be off.

Reason: each “non-denominational” church is really it’s own denomination
 
JustaServant said:
It’s NOT a factual number, which has been proved time and time again.
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👍 Yep! It’s useless as an argument…Better to point out 1st Corinthians 14:33 and ask if the variety of doctrines and interpretations can be the work of the Holy Spirit. (according to St. Paul…it can’t…)
 
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