Catholics need to stop using the "33,000 denominations" apologetic device

[Michael68]

What university or Bible College did the pastors attend? Did they have a Doctrinal Statement?

Never felt the need to check. If they are affiliated in some way, they should say so in their name. Sounds like a con game and even better reason to stay away from these

 

[JustaServant]

Never felt the need to check. If they are affiliated in some way, they should say so in their name. Sounds like a con game and even better reason to stay away from these

I can pretty much guarantee the pastors went to some university the church is affiliated with. When these churches set up a Pulpit Committee, they request resumes from these universities.
I can also guarantee they had Doctrinal Statements.

 

[Padres1969]

You have it exactly. That is the point I have been trying to make.
I know of an “independent” Baptist church in a certain city (I used to live in) that was clearly affiliated with Liberty University (pastor went to LU, the Doctrinal Statement is LU approved). Being nosey a month ago I looked them up on Facebook and discovered they dropped ‘Baptist’ from their name. They ARE still Baptist, AND still affiliated with LU. But they claim to be ND.

Yep seen that as well. My daughter’s godparents attend a church that claims non-denominational status, yet the church was previously a branch of Tim LeHaye’s Scott Memorial Church and what is now San Diego Christian College until they change their name and became non-denominational about 10 years ago. Both Scott Memorial (which has also since changed names) and SD Christian College were and still are Southern Baptist. The irony being my daughter’s godparents don’t like the SBC but because their church claims to be non-denominational, they’ve no clue they’re attending what is a SBC church in all but official status. I’ve actually been debating telling them that they’re surreptitiously members of an SBC church without realizing it.

 

[Michael68]

I can pretty much guarantee the pastors went to some university the church is affiliated with. When these churches set up a Pulpit Committee, they request resumes from these universities.
I can also guarantee they had Doctrinal Statements.

That may be true in some cases, but the main reason these churches pop up is doctrinal differences.

 

[Padres1969]

That may be true in some cases, but the main reason these churches pop up is doctrinal differences.

Actually the main reason they pop up is so-called “Church Planting,” not doctrinal differences. In fact most have identical or near identical doctrinal positions to each other. I suspect this is because they do all come from a set script or basic formulation as each other based on the denomination, school or seminary that the pastor came from.

 

[Church_Militant]

As does Bob Jones.
In fact (how’s about this for control freaks), if you are a student at BJU they give you a list of churches you can attend. You go outside that list, you’re expelled.
These are “independent” Baptist churches.

Oh yeah… we have a “Christian school” kinda like that here too. They do not like us Catholics, let me tell you.

 

[Church_Militant]

That may be true in some cases, but the main reason these churches pop up is doctrinal differences.

Pretty much…it’s what make 1st Corinthians 14:33 so effective as a questioning point.

 

[phil19034]

:banghead::banghead:
A denomination, by it’s very definition is “being numbered” with something else. NDs are in fact numbered with other churches of its like, a college, a camp, a group.
You cannot be numbered with yourself.

A denomination is “being numbered” among Christianity, not within the denomination.

The reason I believe each “non-denomination” is it’s own denomination is because they are their own authority.

Authority is the most important identifier of a “denomination.” Just because two pastors attended the same college doesn’t mean they share the exact same beliefs. There are many protestant colleges & even seminaries that teach pastors of many different backgrounds. For example: there are some seminaries where you could have people graduate to become Baptist, Methodist & even “low church” Anglican minsters. Such interdenominational seminaries include (but are not limited to):

• Vanderbilt University Divinity School
• University of Chicago Divinity School
• Harvard Divinity School
• Wake Forest University School of Divinity
• Yale Divinity School
• Howard University School of Divinity

To me, a “denomination” is a religious group that operates under its own authority (either an autonomous member of an umbrella organization or part of a hierarchy), shares a liturgical and/or apostolic tradition, and shares a defined set of dogma/doctrine/etc.

• The Catholic Church is one group
• Eastern Orthodox are one group
• Oriental Orthodox are one group
• Lutherans have several groups due to splintering
• Baptists have their Conventions (Southern Baptist Convention, etc) - while each Baptist church is autonomous, they share the set group of doctrine, etc.
• “non-denominational” Churches by operate under their own authority, they are not part of any umbrella organization or hierarchy. They do not share a tradition with anyone, other than the wishes of the “pastor”, and they do not officially share an agreed upon set of dogma/doctrine with any other group. Even if they attended a specific seminary, they are not bound to anything other then the pastor’s own personal interpretation of the Bible.
• To me, the Anglican Communion is the only group that I’m not sure of because they don’t really share a set of doctrine - so they might be more than one denomination.

Again… to me authority is key. Who gave the pastor the right to lead his community? If the answer is “himself” because he’s the founder, then he’s really his own Pope, hence he is his own denomination.

God Bless.

 

[rcwitness]

Pretty much…it’s what make 1st Corinthians 14:33 so effective as a questioning point.

… or 1 Corinthians 1:10

Isn’t it the desire to follow this preacher or that preacher, this theology or that one? Now days, you can hear a hundred opinions over doctrine and choose which ever one and still bounce among them all, taking communion.

Communion has lost the central meaning if it doesn’t break down walls of division and disbelief.

… and the solution is Christ Crucified. Sounds like the Lord’s Eucharist, to me.

 

[Padres1969]

• To me, the Anglican Communion is the only group that I’m not sure of because they don’t really share a set of doctrine - so they might be more than one denomination.

Again… to me authority is key. Who gave the pastor the right to lead his community? If the answer is “himself” because he’s the founder, then he’s really his own Pope, hence he is his own denomination.

God Bless.

Depends on what you mean by doctrine I suppose. I mean on what we see as the key points of doctrine, namely the creeds, the Anglican Communion is in solid agreement. It’s one of the things that links Anglicans both geographically and across the low to Anglo Catholic spectrum. Now if you’re describing “doctrine” to include things outside that then you could have an argument that members of the communion could be different denominations.

Same would go for authority, it depends what kind of authority you’re talking about. I mean Anglicans are part of the historic Episcopate from our POV (please no talk of the Catholic POV we know you don’t consider our orders valid), so at the core the pastor’s authority comes from Christ through that Episcopate. And indeed orders can also translate over from one member of the communion to another. That said for the national churches their top authority is vested in national authorities/bodies, for example for the ECUSA the Presiding Bishop and the House of Bishops depending on the issue.

 

[eddie_too]

i know of more than a couple of christian churches that are stand alone communities, as well as other christian churches that claim to be non-denominational.

since these types of churches exist and do not preach the same gospel as any other, can they rightly be called a denomination.

if they can rightly be called a denomination, since they are unique preachers of their gospels and claim authority from Jesus Christ, the 33,000 number might even be too low.

who knows for sure?

i believe the actual point of those who use the 33,000 number is that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, fragmentation and division among those professing their own unique gospel of Jesus Christ is the most pertinent fact.

 

[Hatikvah]

I tend to disregard “denominations” in Protestantism. Yes, we have divisions – Methodism/Wesleyanism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Reformed/Calvinism, etc, etc. The denominations are just typically the body of churches, like how the United Methodist Church is the bringer of Methodism for a great manny.

But in Protestantism, there is a particular emphasis on what Catholics know as the “mystical Body of Christ,” highlighting the idea that all truthful Christians are brethren in Him. Of course, so do the Catholics believe in that idea and so do the Eastern Orthodox to some extent.

 

[rcwitness]

But in Protestantism, there is a particular emphasis on what Catholics know as the “mystical Body of Christ,” highlighting the idea that all truthful Christians are brethren in Him. Of course, so do the Catholics believe in that idea and so do the Eastern Orthodox to some extent.

Yes. We also see the fruits of brotherhood as visible unity. And unto a visible, tangible Communion.

 

[Church_Militant]

I tend to disregard “denominations” in Protestantism. Yes, we have divisions – Methodism/Wesleyanism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Reformed/Calvinism, etc, etc. The denominations are just typically the body of churches, like how the United Methodist Church is the bringer of Methodism for a great manny.

But in Protestantism, there is a particular emphasis on what Catholics know as the “mystical Body of Christ,” highlighting the idea that all truthful Christians are brethren in Him. Of course, so do the Catholics believe in that idea and so do the Eastern Orthodox to some extent.

The problem is how can they all be members of one body when they so widely vary in their interpretations of scripture, doctrine and practice?

The only way n-Cs can really make that work is to treat correct doctrine as unimportant along with their “ordinances” since they have no sacraments. It’s an illogical and unbiblical situation as I see it.

 

[GKC]

The problem is how can they all be members of one body when they so widely vary in their interpretations of scripture, doctrine and practice?

The only way n-Cs can really make that work is to treat correct doctrine as unimportant along with their “ordinances” since they have no sacraments. It’s an illogical and unbiblical situation as I see it.

Even in your eyes…no sacraments?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

According toThe Online Etymology Dictionary:

denomination (n.) Look up denomination at Dictionary.com

late 14c., “a naming, act of giving a name to,” from Old French denominacion “nominating, naming,” from Latin denominationem (nominative denominatio) “a calling by anything other than the proper name, metonymy,” from denominare “to name,” from de- “completely” (see de-) + nominare “to name” (see nominate). Meaning “a class” is from mid-15c. Monetary sense is 1650s; meaning “religious sect” is 1716.

etymonline.com/index.php?term=denomination&allowed_in_frame=0

From Dictionary.com

noun

a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect:
the Lutheran denomination.

one of the grades or degrees in a series of designations of quantity, value, measure, weight, etc.:
He paid $500 in bills of small denomination.

a name or designation, especially one for a class of things.

a class or kind of persons or things distinguished by a specific name.

the act of naming or designating a person or thing.

dictionary.com/browse/denomination

 

[GKC]

According toThe Online Etymology Dictionary:

etymonline.com/index.php?term=denomination&allowed_in_frame=0

From Dictionary.com

dictionary.com/browse/denomination

Useful. As is the definition given used by the WCE folks, who may, in fact, be the source of the 33K (or similar ) figure:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

 

[Michael68]

Even in your eyes…no sacraments?

Sacraments are not stressed and even discouraged as ways to " work your way into heaven". Not all are like this, but a great deal are. When you can be your own “Pope”, misunderstanding of the sacraments and other doctrinal issues will follow.

 

[GKC]

Sacraments are not stressed and even discouraged as ways to " work your way into heaven". Not all are like this, but a great deal are. When you can be your own “Pope”, misunderstanding of the sacraments and other doctrinal issues will follow.

Even so…no sacraments? No baptism or matrimony?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I guess it depends on how one defines a “denomination”. If it means a congregation that has its own doctrine and teachings, I would say there are probably 33,000 in the Ozarks (where I live) alone.

I want to clear up on thing. Generally speaking, preachers do not determine the teachings of any given denomination or congregation. (Lots of congregations are their own denomination). Among many, the congregation actually determines it and chooses a preacher who either believes the same thing or is at least willing to go along with it. Congregations can fire preachers, and often do, if he departs from the consensus in the congregation.

And sometimes preachers aren’t graduates of any divinity school or anything at all. Sometimes they’re just members of the congregation who turn out to be the preacher by default or force of personality. Among the non-denominationals, which are always split-offs from other congregations, sometimes the leader of the 'revolt" in the earlier congregation becomes the preacher in the new one.