Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[Carlan]

Isn’t that amazing! If more Catholics knew the official Catholic teaching of justification by faith, there would be greater unity between Catholics and Protestants. I think Protestants over-react with Catholic friends and neighbors, because most Catholics don’t know we are justified by faith!

It is amazing that you are still debating Justification by faith, after all that has been said on the different threads here. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY GOD’S GRACE, BY FAITH WORKING IN LOVE. I believed my neighbor when she told me that she had faith that Jesus had saved her and that because of it she tried to live her life honoring and keeping his commandments . She is a saint of a person and she has no particular denomination,since i’ve known her she has been a member of three denominations, she simply calls herself a Christian and is quite happy about the whole thing. She introduces me as her good and faithful Catholic friend . Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have no problem discussing any verse/passage/chapter in the bible, pariticularly since I’ve been getting into apologetics I’d say I’m probably somewhat familiar with most of what you’re talking about.

But before we continue, can we establish the following principal. Based upon, 2 Timothy, 3:16 any argument which would attempt to minimise or refute any single passage/verse/chapter in teh bible with any other passage/verse/chapter in the bible is fundamentally flawed. Is this a principal upon which we can agree. I’ll accept a simple yes or no, if we can’t agree on this principal then I think it would be wrong to discuss how we’re saved. First we need to discuss the nature of the bible, and how we read it.

The problem is really that we all know in part…individual and churches. The Bible can appear to contradict itself… if you are honest… yet we know that it is impossible for God to contradict Himself. These apparent contradtictions are really our apparent finite limitations trying to imperfectly understand an all wise and infinte God. We all try to reconcile the apparent contradictions imperfectly, however, our hermenutics are compeletey different. The best way to understand Scripture is through Scirpture… or all of Scripture. The best way Catholics understand Scripture is through what the Catholic Church tells them what Scripture mean. Do you agree with this post?

 

[crazzeto]

The problem is really that we all know in part…individual and churches. The Bible can appear to contradict itself… if you are honest… yet we know that it is impossible for God to contradict Himself. These apparent contradtictions are really our apparent finite limitations trying to imperfectly understand an all wise and infinte God. We all try to reconcile the apparent contradictions imperfectly, however, our hermenutics are compeletey different. The best way to understand Scripture is through Scirpture… or all of Scripture. The best way Catholics understand Scripture is through what the Catholic Church tells them what Scripture mean. Do you agree with this post?

OK, I acknowlege that the bible can seem to contradict it’s self, but I assure you it never does. The bible, understood literally (as opposed to literalist…ly), is inerrant.

What I mean is that evern word in the bible is “god breathed”. It’s all the word of the living god, it’s all profitable for teaching, or in other words: “If it’s in the bible, God had something to say”. Nothing is contradictory, nothing is in error.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is amazing that you are still debating Justification by faith, after all that has been said on the different threads here. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY GOD’S GRACE, BY FAITH WORKING IN LOVE. I believed my neighbor when she told me that she had faith that Jesus had saved her and that because of it she tried to live her life honoring and keeping his commandments . She is a saint of a person and she has no particular denomination,since i’ve known her she has been a member of three denominations, she simply calls herself a Christian and is quite happy about the whole thing. She introduces me as her good and faithful Catholic friend . Carlan

I am trying to have a starting point in which we can agree. We are justifed by faith, but we do see things quite differently in our understanding of the doctrine of justification. I believe in penal substitution, and a forensic justification through the imputation of the righteousness of Christ through faith. I believe that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ alone, being an alien righteousness apart from us. How do you see the doctrine of justification as a Catholic Christian?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Isn’t that amazing! If more Catholics knew the official Catholic teaching of justification by faith, there would be greater unity between Catholics and Protestants.

I will let the Council of Trent speak for itself:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.* Council of Trent Sixth Session Chapter VIII*

Just so you don’t confuse Justification by faith with Justification by faith alone; keep in mind what saving faith is. A faith that is alive in love and charity. A saving faith is never alone. See James for further information on what I am talking about.

I think Protestants over-react with Catholic friends and neighbors, because most Catholics don’t know we are justified by faith!

No. For those Protestants who are going to over-react to their Catholic friends and neighbors it is most likely going to be because they have been told that Catholics believe in a works righteous salvation or that Mary is a goddess or some other anti-Catholic rhetoric which has made its way to their itching ears.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

I will let the Council of Trent speak for itself:

Just so you don’t confuse Justification by faith with Justification by faith alone; keep in mine what saving faith is. A faith that is alive in love and charity. A saving faith is never alone.

God bless

I think those who have an imputed righteousness of Christ, will never have a saving faith that is alone and apart from love and charity. Maybe you have a misunderstanding of justification by faith alone.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I think those who have an imputed righteousness of Christ, will never have a saving faith that is alone and apart from love and charity

Then we are in agreement; justification by faith alone is erroneous. Perhaps Catholic and Protestant dialog would be more constructive if more Protestants understood this like yourself.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

Then we are in agreement; justification by faith alone is erroneous. Perhaps Catholic and Protestant dialog would be more constructive if more Protestants understood this like yourself.

God bless

It all depends on your definition of justification by faith alone. You are quite emotional, because you should embrace Pope Benedict’s version of justification by faith alone as being a good Catholic.

 

[crazzeto]

It all depends on your definition of justification by faith alone. You are quite emotional, because you should embrace Pope Benedict’s version of justification by faith alone as being a good Catholic.

lol!!! There you go, you definietnly agree with us.

 

[bookgirl32]

Of course not. There is a remnant chosen by grace who are also Catholic Christians inside the Catholic Church who are my dear brother and sisters in Christ. All churches have a mix of those who are of the flesh and those who are born from above. I believe all churches are subject to error. Salvation come through the person and work of Jesus Christ and not a particular branch of Christianity. If you become a new creation in the Catholic Church… praise God alone. If you become a new creation in a Protestant church, praise God alone for what he has done for you.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

But what makes your interpretation of the Bible from which you get your belief about who will be saved anymore valid than that of the Catholic Church’s?

 

[2nd_Adam]

But what makes your interpretation of the Bible from which you get your belief about who will be saved anymore valid than that of the Catholic Church’s?

Please explain the Catholic version of who will be saved.

 

[bookgirl32]

Isn’t that amazing! If more Catholics knew the official Catholic teaching of justification by faith, there would be greater unity between Catholics and Protestants. I think Protestants over-react with Catholic friends and neighbors, because most Catholics don’t know we are justified by faith!

And here we go with the intellectual dishonesty again. This is why people have such a hard time taking you seriously.

 

[bookgirl32]

The problem is really that we all know in part…individual and churches.

The problem is that you think everyone else “knows in part” and that you personally “know in full”. The problem is that you keep taking verses and using them completely out of context, despite the fact that you keep warning us against such action, and then defend your interpretation by waying that we only “know in part”. We know fully and without doubt the Truth as revealed to the Church through the Holy Spirit by Jesus, 2nd Adam.

 

[crazzeto]

The problem is that you think everyone else “knows in part” and that you personally “know in full”. The problem is that you keep taking verses and using them completely out of context, despite the fact that you keep warning us against such action, and then defend your interpretation by waying that we only “know in part”. We know fully and without doubt the Truth as revealed to the Church through the Holy Spirit by Jesus, 2nd Adam.

Yeah, I couldn’t even get him to agree that the bible is not contradictory, inerrant and that every word is equally inspired by God. On this basis I find it difficult to have a meaningful debate about theology, we’re not going to be playing by the same rules. It’s like trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

[bookgirl32]

Please explain the Catholic version of who will be saved.

Please answer my question first, thanks.

 

[2nd_Adam]

But what makes your interpretation of the Bible from which you get your belief about who will be saved anymore valid than that of the Catholic Church’s?

According to the authorative Word of God known as Sacred Scripture, all that God intends to be saved will be saved. That group of sinners are called vessels of mercy, the elect, the chosen, His Sheep, Saints, adopted sons, legtimate sons, wheat, etc. Do you disagree with my conclusion? It is by the Spirit of God that I understand this truth. Now, what is the Catholic view of who will be saved?

 

[bookgirl32]

According to the authorative Word of God known as Sacred Scripture, all that God intends to be saved will be saved. That group of sinners are called vessels of mercy, the elect, the chosen, His Sheep, Saints, adopted sons, legtimate sons, wheat, etc. Do you disagree with my conclusion?

No, I don’t agree with your conclusion. By what authority should I agree with your interpretation (your conclusion)? Your own?

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, I don’t agree with your conclusion. By what authority should I agree with your interpretation (your conclusion)? Your own?

Well, before you disagree with my conclusion, make sure that my version is different than the official Catholic version.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

It all depends on your definition of justification by faith alone.

No. You said that saving faith will never be alone… I am just going by what you said. If it is not what you meant to say then you need to clarify it. If you still think that it is Catholics who misunderstand Sola Fide, then can you blame us? Considering there is no unified Protestant declaration on what the term means. It means different things to different Protestants. So in the end it all depends on your definition.

You are quite emotional

Nope not all. It is nice to know though that you reject faith alone:
2nd Adam:

I think those who have an imputed righteousness of Christ, will never have a saving faith that is alone and apart from love and charity

Will, “never have a saving faith that is alone…”

because you should embrace Pope Benedict’s version of justification by faith alone as being a good Catholic.

You should check you condescending attitude (it only makes you come off as arrogant) before you come here if you really wish to have any constructive dialog. Or is that your purpose here; to tell Catholics how they should be so they can be “good” Catholics? I have had Calvinist teach me a lot of things. I had a Calvinist professor who taught my Reformation class. I will listen to a Calvinist when they are telling me about Calvinism but to have a Calvinist teach me the Catholic faith, or to tell me how to be a “good Catholic”… :nope:

God bless

 

[bookgirl32]

Well, before you disagree with my conclusion, make sure that my version is different than the official Catholic version.

Already did that. That doesn’t effect how you would answer anyway. By what authority is your conclusion/interpretation correct?