Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[2nd_Adam]

Ahh, but you ARE misrepresenting his comments because you only place the snippet that you want to show. You know exactly what you’re doing but you pretend to play ignorant and hide behind a false sense of charity.

**Why don’t you place this snippet from his proclamation?: *“So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that ***works through love.”

---

As for Catholics not knowing that we are saved by faith – there are just as many, if not more Protestants who misunderstand this.
This was the crux of Benedict XVI’s point. Faith is NOT merely an intellectual assent to belief – it’s a cooperation with God’s grace. It is a total surrender to that grace and obedience.
Many – TOO many Protestants think that faith means simply believing.

---

So, continue to play your anti-Catholic games but know that I will expose you every time . . .

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow. - Martin Luther

Martin Luther: The 95 Theses and the Reformation

Martin Luther (1483–1546) launched the Reformation with the 95 Theses and the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Life, key writings, and lasting influence.

www.philosophyprofessor.com

 

[guanophore]

“Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” - St. Jerome

I can top your quote with the Scriptures… because God says it better through the Sacred Scriptures.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, - Christ Jesus

There is no competition here, 2nd. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition both point equally to Christ. They complement one another.

I think your Protestant siblings on this site truly appreciate you and love you as our dear sister in the Lord. In Christ, there is no Catholic nor Protestant… because by the Spirit of Christ… we are really one in Christ. The Scriptures will continue to point us to Christ.

I think Tweety’ s Catholic siblings on the site also appreciate and lover her as our dear sister in the Lord. The fact that her doctrines depart from the Apostolic Faith does not diminish our love for her, or our gratitude for her faithful perseverance in the faith.

I would also like to note that there are many of our separated brethren that are more faithful and pious than those who call themselves “Catholic”. Their lives are a testimony to the purity of their faith, and they are excellent role models in the Christian life.
2nd Adam;5869567:

I believe some Church of Christ can have a tendency to merit their own salvation through personal obedience to the law…

What you have stated here as fact, 2nd, is actually a theological impossibility. It is not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy that He saves us. It is not possible to “merit their onw salvation”.

We can start with the gospel of God revealed in the Scriptures as essential doctrine. Please note that our view of communion is not included,

This is a difficult place to start, since Catholics believe that the entire Bible reflects “the Gospel of God as revealed in the Scriptures”. Our separated brethren seem to want to pare down the NT so that it can be put in the smallest possible abbreviated version.

I don’t think the Catholic cannon and Protestant cannon changes the Christian Faith on the essential truths of Christianity.

First of all, let me note that a cannon is a weapon of war designed to emit projectiles.

Second, let me state that the canon (list of books that belongs in the bible) reflects one of the essential truths of Christianity, which is that both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are equal strands of one common revelation of God. this is why, when discussing scripture, the discussion of how the bible exists is relevant. Our separated brethren like to by pass this “assuming a canon”, and in so doing, separate the Apostolic Teaching from the Holy Writing it produced.

Heck, Protestant Bibles used to include the Apocrypha books in the back of their Protestant Bibles. They are profitable books for all Christians to study.

They are not “apocryphal” books, 2nd. They are propoerly called Deuterocanon. Note that they do not fire projectiles either.

it was by God the Holy Spirit who revealed to me that the Mormon gospel was false and the Book of Mormon was not from God. The Spirit showed me this through the Scriptures. I personally believe that God the Holy Spirit reveals to us personally that the Holy Bible is from God as compared to relying on our churches to tell us so.

Yes, of course you must believe this. There would be no other way to disobey the authority appointed by Christ to shepherd the Church.

It is also this belief that has fostered the plethora of divisions in Christendom today.

The Catholic Church and Protestants churches both teach that the Bible is the Word of God.  Yet, for the individual to really believe this, the Spirit will reveal this truth deep down into our souls.

Catholics accept this from the testimony of Sacred Tradition. You are assuming it. Sounds a lot like the "burning in the bosom of the Mormons.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is no competition here, 2nd. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition both point equally to Christ. They complement one another.

This is a difficult place to start, since Catholics believe that the entire Bible reflects “the Gospel of God as revealed in the Scriptures”. Our separated brethren seem to want to pare down the NT so that it can be put in the smallest possible abbreviated version.

First of all, let me note that a cannon is a weapon of war designed to emit projectiles.

Second, let me state that the canon (list of books that belongs in the bible) reflects one of the essential truths of Christianity, which is that both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are equal strands of one common revelation of God. this is why, when discussing scripture, the discussion of how the bible exists is relevant. Our separated brethren like to by pass this “assuming a canon”, and in so doing, separate the Apostolic Teaching from the Holy Writing it produced.

They are not “apocryphal” books, 2nd. They are propoerly called Deuterocanon. Note that they do not fire projectiles either.

Yes, of course you must believe this. There would be no other way to disobey the authority appointed by Christ to shepherd the Church.

It is also this belief that has fostered the plethora of divisions in Christendom today.

Catholics accept this from the testimony of Sacred Tradition. You are assuming it. Sounds a lot like the "burning in the bosom of the Mormons.

Hey brother,

I would really appreciate your participation and (name removed by moderator)ut on this particular thread. I think my concerns of Sacred Tradition is brought out by this particular thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=389193&page=14

:blackeye::juggle::knight2:

 

[elvisman]

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow. - Martin Luther

**Martin Luther **
“If you desire to believe rightly and to possess Christ truly, then you must reject all works that you intend to place before and in the way of God. They are only stumbling blocks, leading you away from Christ and from God. Before God no works are acceptable but Christ’s own works. Let these plead for you before God, and do no other work before him than to believe that Christ is doing his works for you and is placing them before God in your behalf.”

“It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?”

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[bookgirl32]

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow. - Martin Luther

http://www.philosophyprofessor.com/images/philosophers/martin-luther.jpg

You never did tell me what particular website you got this quote from . . .

 

[bookgirl32]

There are orthodox Catholics who adhere to the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

That’s what would make them ortodox, yes.

And there are baptized Catholics and members of the Catholic Church who do not agree with the official teachings of the Catholic Church.

Doesn’t change the official teachings nor that those in line with official teachings are in line with the Church.

Until they are ex-communicated, they are still part of the Catholic Church.

One does not have to be officially ex-communicated to separate themselves from the Church.

Therefore, there is disunity in the official teaching and disunity in the non official teachings

Um . . . no, there’s not. What are non official teachings anyway?

 

[rdscheirer]

Read s
Scott Hahn’s “Letter and Spirit” where he proves that the New Testament came from the Catholic Church from the oral tradition.

 

[SteveGC]

There are orthodox Catholics who adhere to the official teaching of the Catholic Church. And there are baptized Catholics and members of the Catholic Church who do not agree with the official teachings of the Catholic Church. Until they are ex-communicated, they are still part of the Catholic Church. Therefore, there is disunity in the official teaching and disunity in the non official teachings.

2nd, you’re confusing what is believed by individual Catholics, with what is proclaimed and taught by the Church proper. In the Catholic Church, there is no disunity in the latter, only the former…which does not constitute the kind of critical Christian disunity that is being discussed here. Protestantism is chock full of both kinds of disunity, but the dangerous one is the latter.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, you’re confusing what is believed by individual Catholics, with what is proclaimed and taught by the Church proper. In the Catholic Church, there is no disunity in the latter, only the former…which does not constitute the kind of critical Christian disunity that is being discussed here. Protestantism is chock full of both kinds of disunity, but the dangerous one is the latter.

The only real difference from my perspective is that Protestants do not make a distinction between clergy and laity like Catholics. If you take the 1 billion Catholics in the Catholic Faith and took a survey in what they personally believe, you would have great diversity and disunity. Even within the Catholic Priesthood and really knew what each Catholic Priest and Bishop believed personally, you would have great diversity and disunity on many many subjects. What percentage of Catholic laity and priest believe that the elements change to the actual literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ? Do you ex-communicate those who do not believe in the conversion of the elements?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bold isn’t considered shouting - CAPS is.
I type in bold so that nobody can claim they didn’t see my reply to them as they run.

---

LOTS of hit-and-run posters on this forum . . .

Adam2 I think your statement abut cap is nothing more then a cop out and your statement is rudiculous,not in this fighit just my opinion.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Protestants don’t believe in baptismal regeneration;

Don’t paint with such a broad brush. Lutherans believe in Baptismal regeneration. From Luther’s small catechism:

What does Baptism give or profit?–Answer.

It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.

Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#baptism

God bless

 

[Canto]

We can start with the gospel of God revealed in the Scriptures as essential doctrine. Please note that our view of communion is not included,

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the **gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached **to you—unless you believed in vain.

Gospel means good news and was revealed in written and oral from.

So how many doctrines are there in the Scriptures, surley we need to know so we know what is and isn’t doctrine, yet no one has a list. Bizarre! Believe and be baptised said Christ to be saved, yet some people don’t believe baptism saves. So it this a doctrine? Love your neighbour - is this a doctrine? Eat my flesh - is this a doctrine? On this rock I will build my Church - is this a doctrine?

For **I delivered **to you as of first importance **what I also received: **that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, [Old Testament] that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep…Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. - 1 Cor 15

don’t think the Catholic cannon and Protestant cannon changes the Christian Faith on the essential truths of Christianity.

Purgatory is not an essential truth? for example.

2 Mac. 12:46 - Prayers for the dead / Purgatory
46Therefore, it is a holy and beneficial thought to pray on behalf of those who have passed away, so that they may be released from sins.

2 Mac. 15:14 - Intercession of the saints
14 In truth, Onias responded by saying: “This one loves his brothers and the people of Israel. This is he who prays greatly for the people and for all the holy city: Jeremiah, the prophet of God.”

2 Mac. 15:15 - Apparitions of the saints
15 Then Jeremiah extended his right hand, and he gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

Sirach (Eccleiasticus) 15:14 - Free will
14 God established man from the beginning, and he left him in the hand of his own counsel.

Tobit 12:9 - Effectiveness of good works
9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fullness of life; but those who commit sin are the enemies of their own lives.

The Spirit showed me this through the Scriptures. I personally believe that God the Holy Spirit reveals to us personally that the Holy Bible is from God as compared to relying on our churches to tell us so. The Catholic Church and Protestants churches both teach that the Bible is the Word of God. Yet, for the individual to really believe this, the Spirit will reveal this truth deep down into our souls.

Does the Spirit tell individuals what the canon is? So we know what to read.
If so why different canons in Catholicism and Protestantism?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Don’t paint with such a broad brush. Lutherans believe in Baptismal regeneration. From Luther’s small catechism:

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#baptism

God bless

Correction noted. Most Protestants do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

 

[rinnie]

Adam2 I think your statement abut cap is nothing more then a cop out and your statement is rudiculous,not in this fighit just my opinion.

OH MY. I never knew caps was shouting:blush: I always used them to stress my words. Like LOVE one another as GOD HAS LOVED YOU. I never knew I was shouting. No wonder I got in so much trouble.

 

[SteveGC]

The only real difference from my perspective is that Protestants do not make a distinction between clergy and laity like Catholics.

Don’t get me wrong, 2A…I understand the longing for unity, and admire you for attempting to shine light on commonalities. But you are trivializing and minimalizing our differences in a way that does not reflect the reality of Christian disunity. One of the reasons many well-meaning protestants do this is because they believe that faith in Christ is the only essential doctrine of the faith…and since all branches of Christianity essentially share that one doctrine in common, we should rejoice in our fundamental unity. But the problem is that faith in Christ, while very essential and quite core to Christianity, is not the only essential. In addition to baptism, we believe that partaking of the Eucharist is an essential of the faith, as is an awareness of grave sin, and subsequent need for reconciliation if we give in to it. So, there is signficantly more to it than the disciplinary or heirarchical look and feel of the different branches, there is a healthy chunk of underlying theologies that need to be reconciled before we rejoice in unity.

If you take the 1 billion Catholics in the Catholic Faith and took a survey in what they personally believe, you would have great diversity and disunity. Even within the Catholic Priesthood and really knew what each Catholic Priest and Bishop believed personally, you would have great diversity and disunity on many many subjects. What percentage of Catholic laity and priest believe that the elements change to the actual literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ? Do you ex-communicate those who do not believe in the conversion of the elements?

Again, this is talking about what an individual (be it clergy or laity) personally believes…which, while a big problem, is not the fundamental problem of disunity. The biggest problem is in the understanding of revelation…what has been revealed to creation about God. This is where Christendom is disunified. This is what must be reconciled, with zero compromise on that revealed Truth…regardless of what various individuals accept or reject of that revealed Truth.

 

[rinnie]

2nd adam let me ask you this. Do you really understand what Tradition is? Do you really understand what it means? If so please tell me what you think it is?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Don’t get me wrong, 2A…I understand the longing for unity, and admire you for attempting to shine light on commonalities. But you are trivializing and minimalizing our differences in a way that does not reflect the reality of Christian disunity. One of the reasons many well-meaning protestants do this is because they believe that faith in Christ is the only essential doctrine of the faith…and since all branches of Christianity essentially share that one doctrine in common, we should rejoice in our fundamental unity. But the problem is that faith in Christ, while very essential and quite core to Christianity, is not the only essential. In addition to baptism, we believe that partaking of the Eucharist is an essential of the faith, as is an awareness of grave sin, and subsequent need for reconciliation if we give in to it. So, there is signficantly more to it than the disciplinary or heirarchical look and feel of the different branches, there is a healthy chunk of underlying theologies that need to be reconciled before we rejoice in unity.

[SIGN]Again, this is talking about what an individual (be it clergy or laity) personally believes…which, while a big problem, i[/SIGN]s not the fundamental problem of disunity. The biggest problem is in the understanding of revelation…what has been revealed to creation about God. This is where Christendom is disunified. This is what must be reconciled, with zero compromise on that revealed Truth…regardless of what various individuals accept or reject of that revealed Truth.

You know this is really the truth. We as Catholic’s do not go by what we think we go by what God thinks. If God wanted us to follow our hearts and our self he would have no need for the Church. What would we have to study or learn?

The bible tells us itself that it is impossible for man to understand the bible, because there is no way we can think like God. Its just not possible. Because God never could have sin on his mind for one thing. And man battles with it constantly.

The other thing is the true rule of faith as expressed in the bible itself is Scripture, plus Apostolic Tradition and manifested in the living teaching authority of the CC to which were entrusted oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles along with the authority to interpret scripture correctly.

Now common sense tells you that if you do not have oral teachings how could you possibly understand it all.

Its like this.

Writen scripture. eggs, water, flour. yeast, sugar, etc what you need to make bread.

Tradition, How many eggs, how much water, flour sugar, etc. You need instruction on what you just read.

Now if God said we must all eat the same bread, would he give us written without Traditon. See what I am saying. It would be imposible. Thats how I see reading the bible without the instruction of the Church. It Impossible.

If God did not want the CC to have the authority to teach the faith, why is it the CC is the only Church in this world that has both? I have never got an answer to that? I amy have to start a thread on it some time in the future.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

There is one history fact I discovered when studying the history of the church. Rome is the only main Christian city to have never been conquered by muslim armies. Jeruselam, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople all fell. Not even the gates of hell will prevail againts the church of Jesus.

This thread has gotten pretty crazy in the last 20 pages! I have been gone for a few days so I must jump back a few hundred posts to correct the record. It is not true that Rome was never conquered by Muslims The Saracens sacked it in 846 A.D. Here’s a little more on the subject.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

This thread has gotten pretty crazy in the last 20 pages! I have been gone for a few days so I must jump back a few hundred posts to correct the record. It is not true that Rome was never conquered by Muslims The Saracens sacked it in 846 A.D. Here’s a little more on the subject.

To continue this thought: may I be so bold as to point out that Wittenberg, Geneva and Canterbury were never invaded by Muslims?

 

[StillWondering]

Has anyone talked about how the term Trinity and the understanding of the Trinity are part of Sacred Tradition and not found in the Bible?

It is supported by the Bible but nothing to the clarity that all true Christians understand the Trinity to be: One God in three Divine Persons – all perfect, all complete, all God, but indivisible from each other as One God.

This is the basis of our faith, our livelihood, and our salvation. Does the Bible teach this or only mentions the Divine Names?