Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[guanophore]

Do you understand that all of our visible churches have to define the visible church.  In the Reformed Faith, it is taught that the Catholic Church is not part of the visible church because it does not meet the marks of a true visible church.

Yes, I do understand this.

However, within the Catholic Church, there are Christians who are part of the invisible church, yet not part of the true visible church. I’m not trying to say that I agree or disagree with this position. I am just trying to share with you that within Christendom, we have different views of the visible church. I will post the Westminster Confession of Faith to support this post. Historically, the Reformers always believed in both the visible church and invisible church.

It is Catholic to believe in both a visible and invisible Church. From what I can ascertain, the Westminster Confession retains the vast majority of Apostolic Teaching, departing on some key issues that separate them from the Church founded by Chirst.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XXV
Of the Church

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

I think this is where the divine elements of the Church start getting lost, and replaced by only human perceptions.

vV. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

And this statement reflects a lack of understanding/perception of the Holy infallible bride of Christ.

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]

I think if the Pope serving at the time had not been so corrupt, then such anti-papal confessions of faith would not have needed to be created. However, there being a wolf among the sheep does not negate the care of the sheep entrusted to Peter. They threw out the baby with the bathwater! The doctrine did not need to be reformed, but the men who claimed to profess and represent it . Men are always in need of Reform.

 

[guanophore]

Claim? I am a Catholic, but also respect other religons.

It is disingenuous to claim to be Catholic, while rejecting the Teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church respects other religions, but does not affirm their errors, as you do.

 

[tweetymom]

Tweetymom, I appreciate your efforts at “loving” 2nd Adam. He is hard to dialogue with. I do, however, wonder at your confusion between the concepts of judgement (which no one on this thread so far has uttered a word in regards to the state of 2nd Adam’s soul), and defense of the truth. I’m not trying to tell you how to think, or how to believe. But I can with absolute certainty tell you what the Church you belong to, the Catholic Church, believes, and it does not leave room for different interpretation. You seem to think that 2nd Adam has every right to stand up for his own beliefs, but that we as Catholics do not. I think that’s a double standard.

And thats not being judgemental?

 

[guanophore]

Sorry to diagree with you on the ignorant thing? And thanks for calling me ignorant. God Bless you anyway and love:thumbsup:

He did not call YOU ignorant, Tweety, he called the STATEMENT ignorant, which it is. Saying such things makes it appear that you agree with the errors of 2nd Adam that they are “non-essential doctrinal distinctives”. In fact, what makes a person Catholic is that they embrace the whole Teaching of the Apsotles found in the Catholic Church.

God bless you too, anyway.

 

[guanophore]

I am not a Catholic in name only and by what fruits would you like to be judged by?

I think you make a good point that no one here can make the judgement that you are Catholic in name only. We only can go by your posts, in which you appear to be a “nominal” Catholic. Your theology,a nd the content of your posts, is clearly Protestant, but only God knows your heart.

I am glad to hear that at least you are expressing the Truth in your classes, even if you don’t do it here on CAF. I wish the clergy prior the Reformation had done this, because it could have prevented the Reformation all together! Sometimes it is more holy to do what is right, even if you don’t feel it in your heart.

And being judgemental INDEED

It is required of us that we discern what we read through right judgement. This is not the same as judging a person. We can read your posts, and realize that your expressions are not Catholic, yet we are not able to judge your heart before God.

Perhaos I know a lot of things. God Bless you on your journey with our Savior:thumbsup:

I am certain that you do. No one can have so many years of scripture, teaching, fellowship and prayer without learning a lot of things. some of the things you have learned are a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. It seems clear that you don’t realize this.

Well thank you for feeling that I need correction.

Actually, it has nothing to do with “feelings”. We are obligated to speak out against error.

Besides, I don’t think you are at all grateful about the corrections you receive here. You seem to get defensive, and take it personally.

Whenever one of us notices you have posted an error, and comments, you seem to take it that someone has judged your heart, rather than your post.

But I feel that I am walking with Jesus in a very real and right way.

I am sure you do, and in fact, I am sure of the same thing. I believe you are doing the best you can with what you have. I don’t think you even see that you are in error in these matters. I believe you are walking in all sincerity.

I do not feel angry just puzzled as to how people can percieve what is in ones heart just because you don’t agree with everything.

I think you get hurt, not angry, and I agree, I cannot see into your heart. However, Jesus said “the mouth speaks that which fills the heart”, therefore, it is logical to suspect that what you write here is what you believe,a dn that therefore, some of your theology departs from what the Apostles taught.

I will get correction if and when the time comes from God Himself, but thank you so much for you concern.

Basically what you are saying is that you are unwilling to accept correction from the members of His Body, members that He may have sent to you for just this purpose! However, I do agree with you. If you refuse to hear our words, He will find another way to reach you. I believe that God loves you, and you Him,a nd He does not want you to persist in these errors.

God gives us all a path to walk and I know that I am on the right path, hope the rest of you are too. God Bless you all and may God always direct you in all that you do as He has me. In Christ love and prayers Jeanette aka Tweetymom

I believe you are on the right path too, Jeanette. I think that might be why He brought you here.

 

[estesbob]

And thats not being judgemental?

No-its explainng the teachings of the Church. the fact that you reject many of our Churchs core doctrines does not mean we are not allowed to express them.

 

[tweetymom]

I think you make a good point that no one here can make the judgement that you are Catholic in name only. We only can go by your posts, in which you appear to be a “nominal” Catholic. Your theology,a nd the content of your posts, is clearly Protestant, but only God knows your heart.

I am glad to hear that at least you are expressing the Truth in your classes, even if you don’t do it here on CAF. I wish the clergy prior the Reformation had done this, because it could have prevented the Reformation all together! Sometimes it is more holy to do what is right, even if you don’t feel it in your heart.

Amen!

It is required of us that we discern what we read through right judgement. This is not the same as judging a person. We can read your posts, and realize that your expressions are not Catholic, yet we are not able to judge your heart before God.

Glad you don’t know my heart but glad that Jesus does!

I am certain that you do. No one can have so many years of scripture, teaching, fellowship and prayer without learning a lot of things. some of the things you have learned are a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. It seems clear that you don’t realize this.

Not!

Actually, it has nothing to do with “feelings”. We are obligated to speak out against error.

Besides, I don’t think you are at all grateful about the corrections you receive here. You seem to get defensive, and take it personally.
I do not take things that come out of some mouths personally only sad for Jesus that you maybe saying I have a mote in my eye when some may have a beam!
Whenever one of us notices you have posted an error, and comments, you seem to take it that someone has judged your heart, rather than your post.

I am sure you do, and in fact, I am sure of the same thing. I believe you are doing the best you can with what you have. I don’t think you even see that you are in error in these matters. I believe you are walking in all sincerity.

Well I know that I have the fulness of Christ in my heart!

I think you get hurt, not angry, and I agree, I cannot see into your heart. However, Jesus said “the mouth speaks that which fills the heart”, therefore, it is logical to suspect that what you write here is what you believe,a dn that therefore, some of your theology departs from what the Apostles taught.

Yes the mouth does speak that which fills the heat and my heart is full of love for Jesus and by the way even you. I have been critized for saying God Bless so I won’t say that to you, but in my heart thats what I wish for you.

Basically what you are saying is that you are unwilling to accept correction from the members of His Body, members that He may have sent to you for just this purpose! However, I do agree with you. If you refuse to hear our words, He will find another way to reach you. I believe that God loves you, and you Him,a nd He does not want you to persist in these errors.

But I do not feel that I am in error, and like I said when I need correction God gives it to me. Trust me that I have been corrected many times by God.

I believe you are on the right path too, Jeanette. I think that might be why He brought you here.

I didn’t come here for critizim, I came here for fellowship. I love all people regardless of who you are or what you believe. I know zillions of Catholics and non Catholic and have never met a more judgemental people than I have here. Not one person in my lifetime that I have ever met have been so unkind not just to me but to others who don’t meet what they think is right.

Trust me when I say if I was looking for answers and even thought about becoming a Catholic I wouldn’t find much love here that would make me decide to become Catholic. I have been told I was going to Hell by some people cause I didn’t fall into their idea of what groove i was in and I have seen others bashed and bashed over and over again. Now that is what makes me angry and hurts my feeling not especially for me but for the zillion of times I have seen others treated unkindl:thumbsup:y.

 

[tweetymom]

No-its explainng the teachings of the Church. the fact that you reject many of our Churchs core doctrines does not mean we are not allowed to express them.

Great for you:thumbsup:

 

[2nd_Adam]

I sincerely believe this, Tweety, and I understand that you believe your thoughts and feelings should be the standard of Truth, but they are not. Neither are mine, neither are Adams. Truth is defined by Jesus, and it is so far above our ways that we sometimes cannot even grasp it. I am not accusing you of deliberately reinforcing him in his wrong, either. I trust that you sincerely do not recognize the wrong.

Adam accepts about 80% or more of the Apostolic faith, so he does have the Truth in many areas. However, what we are trying to address with him here are the areas where he has embraced falsity.

Okay brother, please help me understand what 20% or more do we disagree with. There is a new jusification thread we can discuss called justification - Catholic and Protestant. We both agree that God is our ultimate authority.

 

[guanophore]

That’s a tough one because we have different leaders. My leaders get their authority from the King of KingsQUOTE]
tweetymom;5883185:

AMEN:thumbsup:

This is an example of how your posts confirm a departure from Apostolic Teaching.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, the HS always draws all members of the Body into unity.

When did you become a Calvinist? :clapping: I told you about the group that broke from the Reformed circles with the nickname Catholic Calvinism.
Peace brother, and be graceful and nice to tweetymom who has shown the true light in Her. Again, 1 Cor 13 trumps Catholic apologetics any day of the week.

 

[Carlan]

Posted by 2nd Adam

I have read the Catechism on the doctrine of justification. I have a good understanding on our differences of the doctrine of justification. However, I don’t think you actually understand our differences between our two views of justification. Do you mind sharing it with me? For clarification sake, I believe in a forensic justification[/End Quote]

This is what what Catholics believe Justification is.
Jesus redeemed all men by his suffering on the cross for our sins. If we believe this
and accept it then, when we are Baptized we become justified in the name of the
Trinity, The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is when justification is
conferred, in Baptism. It is not just an outward sign, a covering over of the ugliness of sin.It is a true eradication of sin,it wipes out,blots out,takes away,removes and cleanses,it is the forgiveness of sins and a true sanctification and renewal of the inner man, the person.
Baptism is an indelible mark which remains in the soul forever. We are Baptized into
Christ.We are given the gift of sanctifying grace which helps us to grow throughout
owr life in holiness so as to be pleasing to the Father.
He created us for himself to love him and to serve him on this earth so that we can
be happy forever with him in heaven. Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree. The main difference being that Catholic lines in the sand are based upon the Apostles teaching, and yours are based on your own perceptions.

That’s a stacked statement. Let me give you my interpertation of your statement. When we agree, I am holding to the Apostle’s teaching. When we disagree, I am no longer holding to the Apostle’s teaching. However, I don’t believe the Apostles were Catholic nor Protestants. They were simply Christians. Oh by the way brother, Happy Reformation Day! :juggle::knight2::grouphug: Nobody said Christian unity would be easy.

“As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory [also attested as ‘into heaven’] springs.” - Johann Tetzel

http://www.graceforlife.com/uploaded_images/reformation_day-703321.bmp

It’s been 492 years ago when Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the Catholic Church door.

 

[Bill_Pick]

This is a false statement. Disagreeing, not agreeing or not understanding does not mean disunity. There can be no disunity because the standard does not change. Diversity yes … look at Franciscans, Bendectines, Thomists, Ligourians … diverse in how they approach spirituality …yes … that should be celebrated for the Church puts no one in a box. The unity is from what the Magesterium teaches … not what people believe. The unity comes from having a standard … the diversity from how that standard can be approached. That is why Protestantism has disunity. Again false … you try to muddle disunity and diversity into the same mold. The Church is against disunity and for diversity.Who cares what the vote is … you ever read about voting in Scriptures? Does the truth subject itself to opinion?

If you take tif you take the small amount of prostants and took a survey in what they personally believe, you would have great diversity and disunity

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think if the Pope serving at the time had not been so corrupt, then such anti-papal confessions of faith would not have needed to be created. However, there being a wolf among the sheep does not negate the care of the sheep entrusted to Peter. They threw out the baby with the bathwater! The doctrine did not need to be reformed, but the men who claimed to profess and represent it . Men are always in need of Reform.

Please explain your post. Are you implying that Pope Leo was a wolf at the time of the Protestant Reformation? It’s much better being a wild boar than a wolf. As we know, Pope Leo nicknamed Luther to be a wild boar.

He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. - Jesus

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. - Jesus

http://www.scottstrainingsystems.com/images/sheep.jpg

If you are not calling Pope Leo a wolf, then forgive me for my misunderstanding of your post. However, if you are calling Pople Leo a wolf, then your Catholic brothers should demand that you RECANT of such a statement.

 

[guanophore]

this may be so, but what about discernment and the Holy Spirit's part in all of this?

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

this is a promise made to the One Church founded by Christ. It does not apply to those who are separated from her.

We should rely more on what scripture says and Gods confirmation within our hearts as opposed to the words of men.

this is the basis of the problem, and really closest to the topic of the thread than anything I have read in the last 50 posts.

“what scripture says”, for those separated from the Apostolic faith, is discerned by themselves, and their Protestant theologies.

“confirmation within our hearts” is a very subjective matter, and while valuable will never contradict what God has already revealed to the Church.

Sacred Tradition is not “opposed” to Scripture, and it is not “the words of men”.

my next question to Catholics would remain… why some and not others who are believers?

They were baptized into the faith, but were not taught properly, and depart from it, or they are taught then rebel. They, like Tweety, become “cafeteria” Catholics, thinking that it is ok to pick and choose which doctrines of the Apostles they will embrace, and which they will not.

My questions is why are we waiting on a physical reunion when we all have the same Heavenly Family members. Please let us become aware of the spiritual realm to a greater extent than the physical realm. We are to fix our eyes on what is unseen!

I agree that it is important to affirm our membership in the One Body of Christ. However, it is not productive to unity to ignore departures from what the Apostles believed and taught. True unity will come from all of us adhering to the One Truth.

It seems to me anyone who reads the bible with a willingness to follow God will be given wisdom from above. If you only had the bible and no denominations and you have believers who honestly seeked the truth through the scriptures, the will of God would definitly be discerned.

I agree with you, and God’s word does not go out void. However, we don’t only have one bible (in fact, Protestants altered that used by the Apostles) and we DO have denominations. He also gave us a Church, through which the will of God has been preserved, so that we don’t have to feel around in the dark!

According to the book of Romans we don’t need RCIA to find the perfect, acceptable and good will of God.

This is a great example of how reading the Scripture out of context leads to error. On the contrary, Paul is aCatholic, writing to Catholics about using Catholic Sacred Tradition to discern.

The bible has the will of God written all in it and its all God-breathed, why does it seem this is so often missed?

I think the inspired nature of Scripture is not missed. what is missed is the Apostolic Tradition from which it was produced, and the context, which is the Catholic Church. I think this gets missed because people don’t know any better.

hmm, definitly people get mis interpretations but shouldn’t we then pray to God for wisdom and understanding? Read for ourselves and look at the opposing views in light of scripture. See which interpretation lines up with the rest of scripture and then conclude it based upon alignment of other truths and God’s guidance?

Yes, of course. This is our spiritual duty. In no case should we make conclusions that are contrary to what God has already revealed to the Church, or spurn the guidance and authority He has provided to guide us.

I guess you could now say all denominations do this and get something different…

Yep.

but shouldn't we take it to God ourselves and pray over it so that WE may interpret it the way He would have us?

Yes, of course, but knowing that this method is what produced all the variances and denominations, there is something missing.

Instead of just believing or accepting a whole denomination has "the fullness of truth". After all, Christianity is about a *personal relationship* with Jesus Christ.. that;s the focal point.

The relationship with Christ is not separated from the relationship with His One Body. He appointed authority,a nd instructed “he who hears you, hears Me, and He who rejects you rejects Me, and Him who sent Me.” To the extent that people like Tweety reject the authority appointed by Christ, they reject part of His Truth.

 

[guanophore]

The Apostles and especially Jesus quoted the Old Testament Scriptures as the authorative Word of God. So, what church council is telling Jesus that the Old Testament cannon is the Word of God?

Jesus said that what they bound on earth would be bound in heaven. Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Alexandrian Septuagint, showing that this is the OT canon that is bound in heaven. The council affirmed this, and chose 27 other NT works out of the 400+
floating around at the time, claiming to be inspired, and bound them together with the Seputuagint, calling it the Bible. Catholics did this, 2nd, under the guidance of the HS.

You need to define what you mean by “is the will of God”. If you mean by the will of God in which whatever God ordains from eternity past,

Actually, we don’t take this upon ourselves. Since Jesus transferred the Seat of Moses to the Apostles, we can go by their definition.

We find it presumptuous that people come along in modern times, separated from the Apostolic Succession, redefining terms to suit themselves.

and God's will is always done, then you have to take a step back and ask why not all Christians are Catholic.

I think you are right. If we did abandon the Apostolic Teaching, and redefine the terms, we would have to ask this. But since we don’t, there is no need to wonder. God, in His sovereignty, allows sin, and that is why there was a Reformation.

In addition, if you believe the will of God that all humans are willed to be Catholic, then why does most of the world do not even believe in Jesus Christ?

If they did, this age would be over?

I believe that Scripture reveals that whatever God ordains will always come to pass.

I believe this too. However, Scripture also reveals that God allows sin, rebellion, and disobedience, and that many fall short of His desire for them.

God is completely sovereign, and through divine providence… He is causing alll things to come to pass according to what He wills.

Indeed He is, and He does. The sins that exist notwithstanding.

Under such circumstances, we each are individually responsible for keeping ourselves in the center of His will.

That’s a tough one because we have different leaders. My leaders get their authority from the King of Kings.

I am sure you believe this. I am sure they do too. However, there is nothing in Scripture that supports this. Authority is passed by those to whom it has been given. These days, among our separated brethren, people take up authority themselves because they believe they are called from God to do so. However,in the One Church established by Jesus, this is not how authority operates.

You have hit the nail on the head, though, with regard to the topic. Catholics read Scripture within the context of authority appointed by Christ. Our separated brethren do not.

Why, oh why, will 2nd Adam not answer this?

He knows there is no good answer for it. He probably regrets posting it, now that it is clear what a ridiculous assertion it really is.

The 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation are essential doctrines. However, we no longer burn each other at the stake. Maybe we should fellowship together with a church BBQ instead?

By no perhaps you realize that it is these departures from the Apostolic Faith that do, in fact, divide us?

Since Scripture is the Word of God, there is so much in there that we can discuss. You state that we differ on what Scirpture says. I will turn that around and say that there is so much that agree in what Scripture reveals. Do you want to debate the Trinity, or the dual nature of Christ, or His incarnation, His ressurection, etc… So, where do we go from here? There is actually more we agree upon than what we disagree upon.

You are dodging, 2nd. What does scripture tell us about resolving our differences?

I think we should go to the Five Solas and the TULIP. This should be done in apologetics. Be brave 2nd!

You are generalizing. Here is something that I embrace. It’s called the Alliance of Confession Evangelicals. It is quite the mix of Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, and Presbyterians, Reformed, etc Christians… united on essential truths of the Christian Faith. So, within the body of Christ, there is great unity within Christendom.

alliancenet.org/

Personally I am really thrileed about the Alliance of Confession Evangelicals. I see God reuniting the divisions in His Body. It is my hopeful prayer and expectation that they will return home, as the Anglicans are doing today.

What are you focused on the differences in the body of Christ?

This might be a good time to read the purpose of the forum, 2nd. You will find the answer to your question there.

What’s the question again?

at the quote above, there is a little blue box with an arrow in it. Click on this, and you will thread back through all the posts to which this one is a response. You will weave your way back to the question you have been dodging, which has already been posted for you five times that I have counted. Don’t be afraid, 2nd.

 

[bookgirl32]

And thats not being judgemental?

No, it’s not. Stating that I think 2ndAdam is bad is being judgemental. Saying I think he’s he’s going to hell is being judgemental. Saying I think he’s sinned is being judegemental. Stating what I believe to be the truth and correcting him is not being judgemental. I’m criticizing his statements, and sometimes his argumentative style, not him.

When you affirm someone’s beliefs as true simply because they “may be true to them”, that’s relativism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I didn’t come here for critizim, I came here for fellowship. I love all people regardless of who you are or what you believe. I know zillions of Catholics and non Catholic and have never met a more judgemental people than I have here. Not one person in my lifetime that I have ever met have been so unkind not just to me but to others who don’t meet what they think is right.

Trust me when I say if I was looking for answers and even thought about becoming a Catholic I wouldn’t find much love here that would make me decide to become Catholic. I have been told I was going to Hell by some people cause I didn’t fall into their idea of what groove i was in and I have seen others bashed and bashed over and over again. Now that is what makes me angry and hurts my feeling not especially for me but for the zillion of times I have seen others treated unkindl:thumbsup:y.

1 Corinthians chapter 2 and 1 Corninthians chapter 13 are great descriptions of Tweetymom! Now, who’s the mature Catholic Christian on this thread?

The Way of Love

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

http://www.dakotacollectibles.com/images/LS175/TW0004.jpg . So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think we should go to the Five Solas and the TULIP. This should be done in apologetics. Be brave 2nd!

at the quote above, there is a little blue box with an arrow in it. Click on this, and you will thread back through all the posts to which this one is a response. You will weave your way back to the question you have been dodging, which has already been posted for you five times that I have counted. Don’t be afraid, 2nd.

This is a trustworthy saying worthy of full acceptance. By the grace of God, I fear no man. The fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom. Please invite all of your Catholic apologetics friends on the apologetics section over to our fellowship, so we can have a Catholic/Protestant BBQ together as brothers in Christ!

:grouphug:

The remnant chosen by grace crosses imaginary lines in the sand! There is true unity in which the Spirit of God created!

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, - Apostolic Teaching