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Blizzard_Wolf
Guest
scottgun, catarina, blessedtoo: My profile doesn’t say that I am Catholic, but it also does not say that I am not Catholic. Think before you jump to conclusions.
Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?
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estesbob
Guest
Uh why would they seperate it? In the cathecism All sins are written about in reference to those who commit them. It seems people are trying to treat homosexual behavior as some kind of special case sin-to be treated with kid golves and never condemened publicly. I think the reason why is very well explained in Blessedtoos post 526EstesBob
I don’t believe it was an accident that the editors of the Catholic Catechism decided to write about homosexual sins and homosexual people in the same section. The Magisterium, in its wisdom, saw it fit to remind us that the two must be throught about simultaneously, but not treated the same way.
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catharina
Guest
I’ve no idea what’s bugging you but I know I read the following post as listed in your profile:
Re: First Timers Meet and Greet #11
Hello, all!
My name is Eliot and I am very interested in religion. Though I am not Catholic, I was raised Catholic and was blessed to go to Catholic schools through 12th grade. The Church will always hold a special place in my heart, for it is a truly wonderous and beautiful thing. One of my friends lurks here and he said that he thought I’d find this forum interesting – and I do!
I hope that all of you are having a truly blessed Christmas season (as it lasts, I think, until 1/13).
Did someone else post under your name, blizzardwolf?
Maybe you should think before you jump to conclusions? ???
It seems you’re new here so you might as well cut some slack for people.
Do you think you were being attacked?
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catharina
Guest
It’s good that you regret any misunderstanding your post created for anyone. It can be quite jarring when someone enters a thread that has been very active for more than a month (a thread that was carrying more than 500 posts when you entered it) and a grand announcement seems to be made by a new poster. I can promise you that estesbob would never shoot any messenger. While you might have a serious need to say what you said in your confrontational post, I doubt that many here had any need to hear it at this late date in this thread. Does that make sense? Telling estesbob “don’t shoot the messenger” seemed unnecessary - but hey, that’s my impression.
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AOA_soldier
Guest
Amen brother! I’ll put it like this. The homosexuals I know always give me the same arguement, “its natural” Lets look at that. Whats the smallest form of nature? An atom. A positive and a negative charge that attract around a nucleus. The attraction of opposites is the smallest and most natural thing there is. It is what keeps the fabric of existence together. Have you ever tried to make two magnets of the same polarity touch? You have to force them, and they still dont 100%!! Same “polarity” attraction is the furthest thing from natural. That being said, HATE the sin, NOT the sinner!! I dont think one sin is worse than another(not meaning mortal and venial) but we all have sins that need to be forgiven. My biggest problem is celebrating this sin like it is ‘natural’ and ‘liberating’ Murder is natural and happened well before homosexuality ie. cane and able. Do we say " c,mon, its natural, he was just born that way. He doesnt have a choice, thats just who he is." While murder is far more mortal than homosexuality, is that statement not a farse. Every sinner has a choice, indulge or repent. In fact, homosexuals have the same call as our priests, CELABACY!!! I can think something is wrong without wanting to hurt them. Anyway, this thread is about hating their ACTS, not THEM.
QUOTE=estesbob;3115372]But you have set up a false paradyme-that is that there is any connection between pointing out the sinfullenss of homosexual behavior and the alleged heightened violence aganst them. You have thus far been unable to show that there is heightened violence against homnosexuals or that evne if there were there is a connection between Christian admonishment of homosexual behavior and the alleged violence against those who engage in this behavior.
QUOTE=estesbob;3115372]But you have set up a false paradyme-that is that there is any connection between pointing out the sinfullenss of homosexual behavior and the alleged heightened violence aganst them. You have thus far been unable to show that there is heightened violence against homnosexuals or that evne if there were there is a connection between Christian admonishment of homosexual behavior and the alleged violence against those who engage in this behavior.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
So do you teach Hate when you counsel?
Do you teach your children hate is vital to them?
Do you exhort you children, friends, and family to hate?
Are you full of hate?
Are all of faithful filled with Hate?
Refusing to hate is not foolish
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Let me ask you Texas-
Do you love sin?
Do you tell people sin is good?
Do you tell your kids, friends, family that sin is wonderful and there is nothing wrong with it?
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Is there a problem asking you to live by your own teachings?
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Can you answer my questions?
Do you love sin?
Do you tell people sin is good?
Do you tell your kids, friends, family that sin is wonderful and there is nothing wrong with it?
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Also I do. I love the sinner but not his/her sin
I for one do not love sin, I do not tell people sin is good, I do not tell people to keep sinning, do you?!
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Can you answer my questions?
Do you love sin?
Do you tell people sin is good?
Do you tell your kids, friends, family that sin is wonderful and there is nothing wrong with it?
It seems there is an issue you need to aviodAlso I do. I love the sinner but not his/her sin
I for one do not love sin, I do not tell people sin is good, I do not tell people to keep sinning, do you?!
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Really?
So how about telling us what you love about sin or are you indifferent to it?
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
It seems there is an issue you need to aviod
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
well PM and let me know by all means as I am not seeing it:shrug:
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catharina
Guest
The point of hating sin (all sin) is ever before us in the Act of Contrition.
“… and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell but MOST OF ALL, BECAUSE THEY OFFEND THEE, MY GOD, WHO ART ALL GOOD AND DESERVING OF ALL MY LOVE. … .”
We are to hate sin.
(The self-explanatory requires no additional definition.)
“… and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell but MOST OF ALL, BECAUSE THEY OFFEND THEE, MY GOD, WHO ART ALL GOOD AND DESERVING OF ALL MY LOVE. … .”
We are to hate sin.
(The self-explanatory requires no additional definition.)
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estesbob
Guest
There are so many strawmen in the above one wonders if theres any left for the manger. Some people are gracious enough to admit when they were wrong-some just prattle on.
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blessedtoo
Guest
And continue to try and provoke. Don’t take the bait folks. IMO, the point of this thread has been clarified, verified, and justified. What is left is the feeble and silly ramblings of those who have found themselves cornered by the truth.
bob, I have to say that upon reflecting on your comments regarding the other sexual sins, I have come to realize through observation that this confusion between sin and sinner is never an issue. Those who come onto the forums with problems/questions/addictions to masturbation NEVER accuse others of being hateful simply because they are told to stop sinning. Likewise those who come onto the forums because they are engaging in fornication or adultery NEVER accuse others of being hateful or bigoted when they are told to stop sinning.
I am even more convinced that the bias against homosexuals comes more from the secular and liberal factions who clearly feel that homosexuals (in the immortal words of Jack Nicholson) “can’t handle the truth”.
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blessedtoo
Guest
Deb,
I know this has been such a struggle for you. God bless you for hanging in there!
Ninety Eight percent of my friends are/were homosexual when I re-entered the Church. As you know, my sister is also an active homosexual. It took some time before I could accept that my relationships with them would change and with some, even cease, once they understood my committment to my faith. But, I did not make unilateral proclamations or intrusive declarations about their lifestyles. Instead, I talked non-stop about God, the Church, the beauty of her teachings and I tried to live as an example, talking mostly about how I applied it to my own life. Everyone learned quickly that I had committed to chastity (because we all talked about very intimate things in the past!) and if they asked questions, I gave them honest answers. And I prayed for God to give me opportunities with them to speak about all the sexual sins. When they asked a question, I answered honestly. Some of them were aghast, some of them understood. Some ditched the friendship, some hung in. Some simply faded away with time. But the first step for me, was keeping the focus on how God had impacted MY life. I believed that if they saw my transformation, they would want to know more.
I did have a few friends who didn’t quite get it and tried to continue the friendship as before, complete with all the r-rated commentary about their personal lives. Over time, and my refusal to engage in such conversation, they did slip away. I pray for them all still and have turned them over to Our Lady for protection and guidance.
Hope that helps! PM me anytime!
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JReducation
Guest
I think that your approach is very beautiful and loving. My hat’s off to you.
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JReducation
Guest
First, please allow me to explain that the term “Don’t shoot the messenger,” was intended as a figure of speech, not meant to be taken as hostile. Obviously, the people in this forum are good devout Christians or they wouldn’t be here. Therefore, I doubt that they would shoot anyone. I said the same thing to my son the other day when he complained about his taxes after I explained the tax law to him (he just got his first job and has had a rude awakening. LOL). I would never say an unloving thing to my son. So, if I say the same to someone here, it is said with the intent to minimize confrontation, not exacerbate it.
I apologize, if it had the opposite effect.
Second, I realize that this thread has been running a long time, just by the number of posts and pages. However, as I browsed through it, I did not see any post that quoted the Catholic Catechism or the pastoral letters on the subject.
Maybe I missed them and I if I did, I apologize for repeating them and stand corrected.
Third, my intention in posting the Catholic Catechism’s citations was an attempt to balance the tone. Upon first glance, the word hate comes up in so many posts and there are some very emotional posts. Obviously, it is a word that triggers a great deal of emotions. Some of these lead to debates. I observed that some posts were confrontational. In my mind, I thought that by posting both the Church’s position on the sin and the sinner, it would help relieve some of the emotional intensity in the thread.
A wonderful Franciscan Brother taught us this in grad school and later he was my mentor in ministry. He always said, “Never discuss theology with emotion.” Theology is meant to be discussed with reason and passion. Passion is love of theology, love of neighbour, love of Church and most importantly, love of God.
In our training we were taught to follow St. Francis’ style of doing theology. 1) Say what the Church says. 2) Say it as the Church says it. 3) In using scripture, always consult with the Church to make sure that your understanding is consistent with that of the Magisterium. 4) Finally, no matter what the sin, remember the teaching of Francis, hate the sin, regardless of which sin we’re talking about, but show the utmost respect for the sinner, for Christ died for him/her. Love him with all of your heart, because that’s how Christ loves him. We were trained to follow the simple style of St. Francis when dealing with sin; always be gentle and see only the crucified Christ in all men and women. When possible, do as Francis did, walk through the village without saying a word. This is preaching at its finest.
I hope this helps to clarify where I’m coming from. I think it best to say, that I’m coming from a particular school of thought with a particular methodology. Not from an oppositional or hostile position at all. Thank you for your understanding.
Pax et Bonum!
I apologize, if it had the opposite effect.
Second, I realize that this thread has been running a long time, just by the number of posts and pages. However, as I browsed through it, I did not see any post that quoted the Catholic Catechism or the pastoral letters on the subject.
Maybe I missed them and I if I did, I apologize for repeating them and stand corrected.
Third, my intention in posting the Catholic Catechism’s citations was an attempt to balance the tone. Upon first glance, the word hate comes up in so many posts and there are some very emotional posts. Obviously, it is a word that triggers a great deal of emotions. Some of these lead to debates. I observed that some posts were confrontational. In my mind, I thought that by posting both the Church’s position on the sin and the sinner, it would help relieve some of the emotional intensity in the thread.
A wonderful Franciscan Brother taught us this in grad school and later he was my mentor in ministry. He always said, “Never discuss theology with emotion.” Theology is meant to be discussed with reason and passion. Passion is love of theology, love of neighbour, love of Church and most importantly, love of God.
In our training we were taught to follow St. Francis’ style of doing theology. 1) Say what the Church says. 2) Say it as the Church says it. 3) In using scripture, always consult with the Church to make sure that your understanding is consistent with that of the Magisterium. 4) Finally, no matter what the sin, remember the teaching of Francis, hate the sin, regardless of which sin we’re talking about, but show the utmost respect for the sinner, for Christ died for him/her. Love him with all of your heart, because that’s how Christ loves him. We were trained to follow the simple style of St. Francis when dealing with sin; always be gentle and see only the crucified Christ in all men and women. When possible, do as Francis did, walk through the village without saying a word. This is preaching at its finest.
I hope this helps to clarify where I’m coming from. I think it best to say, that I’m coming from a particular school of thought with a particular methodology. Not from an oppositional or hostile position at all. Thank you for your understanding.
Pax et Bonum!
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