Catholics play vital role in helping migrants to U.S

[AaronsStaff]

Well I am an amnesty advocate, but I agree with you.

I may be wrong about Godi’s post though, that’s just what it sounded like to me.

Amnesty may not have been the right word Goth, I meant to say open /unchecked borders, I mean that I dont want people getting in unchecked such as possible druglords terrorsits and whatever, but I have no problem letting any other honest person in. Getting into this country is a long process, and I dont think it should be, so I think we should make it easier to become a citizen, but I dont want people to have to run across the border. It should be organized so that we can keep track of who is coming in. As for everyone already here, honestly theres no way make them go back, and they shouldnt have to, so I say give them a path to citizenship which is easy, fair, and realistic. I think the Catholic and the rest of the Christian community should be embracing these immigrants because we share the same values.

 

[Godi]

Oh for the love of Heaven Sorry but God doesn’t condemn anyone for going against the United States. Hell, abortion is legal here. That’s a crime against God in and of it’s self.

Futhermore, I suppose you (and a few other people here) do not recall the Fugitive Slave Act in the 1800s. To me it’s quite a throwback from that period, Slaves were also not citizens, illegally trying to flee from the South into the North and eventually Canada, sound familar? The situation in Mexico is not much better then the South in the 1800s. Many of these illegals support families on the minimun wage they earn here.

So many of you are against illegal immigration on the basis because your tax-payers and it hurts you. But boy, I’m sure most of you know where your next meal is coming from.

So if your poor and hungry, Steal? Thats a nice Christian attitude. Steal and lie and cheat all you want & show up for Communion on Sunday!

 

[seekerz]

So if your poor and hungry, Steal? Thats a nice Christian attitude. Steal and lie and cheat all you want & show up for Communion on Sunday!

Perhaps they could simply lie down and starve to death, that way they could eat all they want in heaven. Would that be a better Christian attitude, you think?

 

[Godi]

Perhaps they could simply lie down and starve to death, that way they could eat all they want in heaven. Would that be a better Christian attitude, you think?

Where pray tell does it say that at any time it is Christian to steal & be a Liar? Jesus? I don’t think so.

 

[seekerz]

Where pray tell does it say that at any time it is Christian to steal & be a Liar? Jesus? I don’t think so.

There’s nowhere we are told it is okay to sin. However, there are many places we are told of our duty to come to the aid of the needy (in Bible parlance: the widow, the orphan, the foreigner, the poor).

If anyone feels forced to steal/lie to live, then he will have to answer for his sin, but those who by action or inaction allow or create this situation will share culpability, in my opinion.

Indeed the Bible tells us it is not enough to preach God’s word to people while ignoring their hunger/nakedness. Similarly, I would think it unreasonable to hold people to the moral yardstick while they are hungry/destitute and we do nothing to help.

We have a right to expect moral behavior and a duty to help the needy; one cannot be divorced from the other.

By the way, would you clarify exactly what the lying and stealing is that’s supposed to be going on, with regard to the topic at hand?

 

[Godi]

There’s nowhere we are told it is okay to sin. However, there are many places we are told of our duty to come to the aid of the needy (in Bible parlance: the widow, the orphan, the foreigner, the poor).

If anyone feels forced to steal/lie to live, then he will have to answer for his sin, but those who by action or inaction allow or create this situation will share culpability, in my opinion.

Indeed the Bible tells us it is not enough to preach God’s word to people while ignoring their hunger/nakedness. Similarly, I would think it unreasonable to hold people to the moral yardstick while they are hungry/destitute and we do nothing to help.

We have a right to expect moral behavior and a duty to help the needy; one cannot be divorced from the other.

By the way, would you clarify exactly what the lying and stealing is that’s supposed to be going on, with regard to the topic at hand?

So your making a case for the Barbarian invasions of the Goths, Huns & even the Vikings. Interesting. You are saying its not enough to send aid, food, clothing and to contribute to charities, more than any other Nation in the history of the world. But any hungry person IN THE WORLD has a God given right to ignore God’s own commandments and the laws of our country, steal id, falsify documents, conceal their true identity, steal our resources? Being a poor Laborer does not excuse you from stealing from the Wealthy Vineyard Owner. You sir, are only attempting to justify a contemptable, despicable sin against God and a soveriegn nation.

 

[AaronsStaff]

I have a question for people concerning the immirgration laws here in the U.S. First off I dont support illegal immigration, but I do think that the current laws are unfair and need to be changed. I also believe that the people already here need to be given an easy path to citizenship, because it is completely un realistic to have all 12 million go back to their native country, it is also unrealistic and unfair to make them pay thousands of dollars, which one of the proposed reform plans had immigrants doing to gain citizenship. ( I believe it was like $6000 upfront and a few more later on) I also believe that it is our moral obligation, to provide anyone regardless of legal statues with the basic human necessities of food clothes etc. Anyway, my question is …Are the current immigration laws for the United States both fair and just to the massive amounts of poor people who need to and are trying to get in? If not, would you support changing them? and another question, What would you do about the 12 million illegal immigrants here in the United States?

 

[MelanieAnne]

I have a question for people concerning the immirgration laws here in the U.S. First off I dont support illegal immigration, but I do think that the current laws are unfair and need to be changed. I also believe that the people already here need to be given an easy path to citizenship, because it is completely un realistic to have all 12 million go back to their native country, it is also unrealistic and unfair to make them pay thousands of dollars, which one of the proposed reform plans had immigrants doing to gain citizenship. ( I believe it was like $6000 upfront and a few more later on) I also believe that it is our moral obligation, to provide anyone regardless of legal statues with the basic human necessities of food clothes etc. Anyway, my question is …Are the current immigration laws for the United States both fair and just to the massive amounts of poor people who need to and are trying to get in? If not, would you support changing them? and another question, What would you do about the 12 million illegal immigrants here in the United States?

You’re missing an entire aspect of this question. Most of the people here illegally would not come here if there were opportunity for them in their own country. They love their country. They only leave because of the desperate circumstances of their lives there. So why is the answer always that we need to allow them to come here? Why do the proposed solutions never address the corruption and oppression in Mexico and the various Central American countries that are primary sources of illegal immigration?

In most situations on this planet, the vast majority of people seem to think the right thing to do is to give assistance to people in other countries to help them improve their lives THERE ~ in their own countries. Only when it comes to our situation is the answer to the problems in Mexico and elsewhere to have the poor uneducated populace come to the US (so that they can be exploited both on the way as well as after they arrive.)

If we truly believed in charity, we would put a stop to illegal immigration for humanitarian reasons. And direct our efforts and resources to improving the lot in life of the average poor uneducated Mexican in Mexico, the poor Salvadoran in El Salvador, etc. If the conditions were good there, if there was opportunity there, a significant number of the so-called 12 million would return VOLUNTARILY.

No one seems to want to deal with the real issue.

 

[iamrefreshed]

IAnyway, my question is …Are the current immigration laws for the United States both fair and just to the massive amounts of poor people who need to and are trying to get in?

The current laws should be updated to reflect conditions as they are today.

If not, would you support changing them?

Absolutely. We were founded as a country of immigrants. I’ve always looked at it this way. Immigrants are the best of another countries population. They are the hungry. They are willing to work. They show tremendous inititive. They are willing to leave everything they know to reach for a better life. Yes, the poor, tired and hungry are who we need.

and another question, What would you do about the 12 million illegal immigrants here in the United States?

I’d support some sort of path to citizenship. That said, they would somehow have to pay. I don’t mean financially necessarily. I don’t believe you should reward someone who has broken the law. Maybe there could be some sort of ‘community service’ that could be made mandatory?

 

[seekerz]

So your making a case for the Barbarian invasions of the Goths, Huns & even the Vikings. Interesting. You are saying its not enough to send aid, food, clothing and to contribute to charities, more than any other Nation in the history of the world. But any hungry person IN THE WORLD has a God given right to ignore God’s own commandments and the laws of our country, steal id, falsify documents, conceal their true identity, steal our resources? Being a poor Laborer does not excuse you from stealing from the Wealthy Vineyard Owner. You sir, are only attempting to justify a contemptable, despicable sin against God and a soveriegn nation.

I am not trying to justify anything and you are not trying to answer the actual points made in my post.

For heavens sake remove the blinders! We are human (and Christian) brothers of each other before we are citizens of any country.

Catholics believe in a merciful God, who routinely gives all of us way more than we could ever deserve; all He requires of us is to do likewise with each other.

Again I ask you, what particular acts of theft or lying are you referring to with regard to illegal immigrants; is the simple act of coming here a theft? If so of what? God’s green earth, the air we breathe, the water flowing from the mountains? What?

As for America being generous, that certainly is true, but even such a truth does not absolve us from our present duty.

On a personal level, if I give away everything I own, offer my own body to be burnt and have not love, I am …

 

[MelanieAnne]

Seekerz, in order to work in this country, most illegals need a social security number. One way theft occurs is with that number because they appropriate someone else’s number to use. Sometimes they even take the name on the social security card as their own, other times, just the number is appropriated for their use.

This can cause all kinds of financial havoc (it’s called identity theft) on retirees (who suddenly stop getting their social security benefits when it appears they are now “working”) as well as working people. And it often doesn’t stop there. Credit reports can be destroyed. And to correct the problem often takes the victim hundreds of hours of effort, and a lot of money. All because someone who is here illegally decided they needed to steal someone’s identity to use for their own purposes.

If you don’t understand the horrible effect this has on someone’s life, perhaps you’ve never known anyone who had their identity stolen. I do. So can we also have a care for those US Citizens who have been adversely affected by the identity and credit crimes of illegals?

And that’s just one example.

 

[AaronsStaff]

Seekerz, in order to work in this country, most illegals need a social security number. One way theft occurs is with that number because they appropriate someone else’s number to use. Sometimes they even take the name on the social security card as their own, other times, just the number is appropriated for their use.

This can cause all kinds of financial havoc (it’s called identity theft) on retirees (who suddenly stop getting their social security benefits when it appears they are now “working”) as well as working people. And it often doesn’t stop there. Credit reports can be destroyed. And to correct the problem often takes the victim hundreds of hours of effort, and a lot of money. All because someone who is here illegally decided they needed to steal someone’s identity to use for their own purposes.

If you don’t understand the horrible effect this has on someone’s life, perhaps you’ve never known anyone who had their identity stolen. I do. So can we also have a care for those US Citizens who have been adversely affected by the identity and credit crimes of illegals?

And that’s just one example.

Most of the work illegal immigrants do is under the table, so you dont need a social security number, because the emplyer knows that they are not citizens. Im not saying that identity theft does not happen, but the vast majority of the work done by these immigrants is under the table.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Most of the work illegal immigrants do is under the table, so you dont need a social security number, because the emplyer knows that they are not citizens. Im not saying that identity theft does not happen, but the vast majority of the work done by these immigrants is under the table.

I can tell you otherwise. I have been in a position to know this during my working life (from which I am now retired so I can devote myself to more creative pursuits. But in my work life, I was a tax professional.) So to give just one example ~ how about the thousands of restaurant workers? All of those, employed by restaurant chains all over this country, have social security numbers, and the vast majority of the social security numbers are stolen if the employee is here illegally. And that’s just one example, but it is an example I’ve seen the evidence of with my own eyes. Hundreds of people using the same stolen social security number sometimes, which creates a nightmare for the person that the number actually belongs to.

So while it’s true that some work “under the table” (taking jobs from Americans in many cases and exploited by their employers because of their illegal status) that does not mean it isn’t a big problem. It’s a problem that isn’t discussed too much, because it’s one that is so difficult to solve, but it’s there.

In the meantime, don’t carry your social security card in your wallet. All you need to have happen is your wallet stolen and you too could be the victim of “identity theft”.

 

[seekerz]

Seekerz, in order to work in this country, most illegals need a social security number. One way theft occurs is with that number because they appropriate someone else’s number to use. Sometimes they even take the name on the social security card as their own, other times, just the number is appropriated for their use.

This can cause all kinds of financial havoc (it’s called identity theft) on retirees (who suddenly stop getting their social security benefits when it appears they are now “working”) as well as working people. And it often doesn’t stop there. Credit reports can be destroyed. And to correct the problem often takes the victim hundreds of hours of effort, and a lot of money. All because someone who is here illegally decided they needed to steal someone’s identity to use for their own purposes.

If you don’t understand the horrible effect this has on someone’s life, perhaps you’ve never known anyone who had their identity stolen. I do. So can we also have a care for those US Citizens who have been adversely affected by the identity and credit crimes of illegals?

And that’s just one example.

My impression was that most illegals worked here without documentation of any kind. If that is wrong then I stand corrected.

I still do not understand why those who want to come and work cannot simply be allowed to do so legally. That would solve so many problems: the identity theft you mention, the massive amounts spent on policing border crossing laborers rather than focusing on those who pose an actual threat, the drain on social services (legal workers would have health insurance and pay taxes) , the exploitation of cheap labor and on and on…

Immigration helped make America what it is today; when did it become a bad thing to be restricted and made impossible for willing hardworking laborers?

Let them come; they don’t have to be automatically given citizenship, just the legal permission to work and contribute to the society in which they live, even temporarily. The laws of supply and demand in the job market will take care of the rest…I don’t really think it’s all that complicated, there’s just too much fear and closed-mindedness in the whole equation.

 

[Sabda]

My impression was that most illegals worked here without documentation of any kind. If that is wrong then I stand corrected.

I still do not understand why those who want to come and work cannot simply be allowed to do so legally. That would solve so many problems: the identity theft you mention, the massive amounts spent on policing border crossing laborers rather than focusing on those who pose an actual threat, the drain on social services (legal workers would have health insurance and pay taxes) , the exploitation of cheap labor and on and on…

Immigration helped make America what it is today; when did it become a bad thing to be restricted and made impossible for willing hardworking laborers?

Let them come; they don’t have to be automatically given citizenship, just the legal permission to work and contribute to the society in which they live, even temporarily. The laws of supply and demand in the job market will take care of the rest…I don’t really think it’s all that complicated, there’s just too much fear and closed-mindedness in the whole equation.

The problem with this thinking is that it solves nothing in the long run. The problem, as it has already been pointed out in this thread, is not here in the US. It is in the illegal immigrant’s own country. Many of the people who come here do not bring their families. Their families stay behind, because for whatever reason, they can not make the trip. If you want to really solve the problem then fix what is going on in their own countries. We in the US can not solve the problem by making it easier for them to come here.

Every heard the old saying " the cure is worse than the disease?" The fact is too many people would much rather slap a bandage on the wound than actually roll up their sleeves for some serious surgery. Serious surgery is the only thing that is going to really fix the problem with illegal immigration that we are currently having.

 

[MelanieAnne]

My impression was that most illegals worked here without documentation of any kind. If that is wrong then I stand corrected.

I still do not understand why those who want to come and work cannot simply be allowed to do so legally. That would solve so many problems: the identity theft you mention, the massive amounts spent on policing border crossing laborers rather than focusing on those who pose an actual threat, the drain on social services (legal workers would have health insurance and pay taxes) , the exploitation of cheap labor and on and on…

Immigration helped make America what it is today; when did it become a bad thing to be restricted and made impossible for willing hardworking laborers?

Let them come; they don’t have to be automatically given citizenship, just the legal permission to work and contribute to the society in which they live, even temporarily. The laws of supply and demand in the job market will take care of the rest…I don’t really think it’s all that complicated, there’s just too much fear and closed-mindedness in the whole equation.

They work without legal documentation. They don’t have their OWN social security card in their own legal name. When they are described as “undocumented workers” that is because they don’t have their own legal documentation, it doesn’t mean they don’t have stolen identities because a huge number do.

And you’re right, it might be easier to allow people who want to work to come here. But I don’t know that the bulk of the US populace is in agreement. And the view that those who have broken the law should not be rewarded for doing so has at least SOME merit. This is a multi-faceted problem.

But no one ever wants to address the one thing that would truly be compassionate and that is working to make conditions better in Mexico and the rest of Latin America, reducing the desire to come here, legally or illegally. In the rest of the world it is thought to be better to help people where they are, because that is where they live, where their families are, where they can live in their own culture. Why is uprooting Latin American families a better idea? And why is that the only example where it’s a good idea?

 

[AaronsStaff]

They work without legal documentation. They don’t have their OWN social security card in their own legal name. When they are described as “undocumented workers” that is because they don’t have their own legal documentation, it doesn’t mean they don’t have stolen identities because a huge number do.

And you’re right, it might be easier to allow people who want to work to come here. But I don’t know that the bulk of the US populace is in agreement. And the view that those who have broken the law should not be rewarded for doing so has at least SOME merit. This is a multi-faceted problem.

But no one ever wants to address the one thing that would truly be compassionate and that is working to make conditions better in Mexico and the rest of Latin America, reducing the desire to come here, legally or illegally. In the rest of the world it is thought to be better to help people where they are, because that is where they live, where their families are, where they can live in their own culture. Why is uprooting Latin American families a better idea? And why is that the only example where it’s a good idea?

I agree that the problem is created in Central/South America, but it cant be America’s responsibility to re construct these governments and economies, we did that during the progressive era and it apparantly has not worked in the long run. The drug dealing is one of the major problems, especially in Mexico, and there is a disproportionate amount of wealth in the hands of too few people which doesnt help their economies or their people. The world is already angry at us for going into Iraq, and Im sure we will be disliked even more if we start to get involved in these countries.
I would venture to say that the people coming over have no intentions of going back, because they dont like it in their native country.

 

[seekerz]

They work without legal documentation. They don’t have their OWN social security card in their own legal name. When they are described as “undocumented workers” that is because they don’t have their own legal documentation, it doesn’t mean they don’t have stolen identities because a huge number do.

And you’re right, it might be easier to allow people who want to work to come here. But I don’t know that the bulk of the US populace is in agreement. And the view that those who have broken the law should not be rewarded for doing so has at least SOME merit. This is a multi-faceted problem.

But no one ever wants to address the one thing that would truly be compassionate and that is working to make conditions better in Mexico and the rest of Latin America, reducing the desire to come here, legally or illegally. In the rest of the world it is thought to be better to help people where they are, because that is where they live, where their families are, where they can live in their own culture. Why is uprooting Latin American families a better idea? And why is that the only example where it’s a good idea?

Conditions in these countries are a result of a complex interaction of local, cultural and global policies and practices which probably only the good Lord can unravel. It’s not simply a matter of giving aid or encouraging democracy. What we have control over is what lies within our reach to achieve, a just and equitable solution for those within our borders.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Aaron, I know a lot of these people. Many would return home if they could. Or they would stay there if they could get work and not come here at all.

And I don’t mean we should invade those countries for heaven’s sakes, but we could do more to make it possible for people to make their lives in their own countries. We’re not doing that.

 

[Godi]

I am not trying to justify anything and you are not trying to answer the actual points made in my post.

For heavens sake remove the blinders! We are human (and Christian) brothers of each other before we are citizens of any country.

Catholics believe in a merciful God, who routinely gives all of us way more than we could ever deserve; all He requires of us is to do likewise with each other.

Again I ask you, what particular acts of theft or lying are you referring to with regard to illegal immigrants; is the simple act of coming here a theft? If so of what? God’s green earth, the air we breathe, the water flowing from the mountains? What?

As for America being generous, that certainly is true, but even such a truth does not absolve us from our present duty.

On a personal level, if I give away everything I own, offer my own body to be burnt and have not love, I am …

ID theft, theft of services, driving without licences, driving without insurance, false identity, not paying income tax, to name a few. You stated that we must love our brothers and sisters. I believe you are referring to “the Golden Rule”, and you do know that that is a synopsis of the Ten Commandments? Without obeying the Ten Commandments you CANNOT love your nieghbor. Where did Christ say it was all right to break human laws? Render unto Ceasar.