Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons

[Blade_and_Blood]

You know, I’m not sure if I’ve said this before, but I just have to throw this out here no matter how random:

I truly believe that the Book of Mormon is either the worst nonfiction book I’ve ever heard about or the best science fiction piece I’ve ever encountered.

 

[MelanieAnne]

You know, I’m not sure if I’ve said this before, but I just have to throw this out here no matter how random:

I truly believe that the Book of Mormon is either the worst nonfiction book I’ve ever heard about or the best science fiction piece I’ve ever encountered.

I vote for worst nonfiction as there is much better science fiction out there.

And it would appear that at least some of the membership do not understand what “ignore” means.

 

[Snow]

I vote for worst nonfiction as there is much better science fiction out there.

And it would appear that at least some of the membership do not understand what “ignore” means.

I guess by that you mean that when you fabricate nonsense, you shouldn’t be called on it.

So sorry - I’ll continue to point out instances of misstatement, inaccuracy, bigotry and deceit.

 

[adrift]

I guess by that you mean that when you fabricate nonsense, you shouldn’t be called on it.

So sorry - I’ll continue to point out instances of misstatement, inaccuracy, bigotry and deceit.

USA Today

 

[Stephen168]

By any objective analysis the so-called “Book of Mormon” is clearly the work of Joseph Smith,
Snow;4458624:

Please post the “objective analysis.”

Did someone other then Joseph Smith translate the plates into the Book of Mormon?

.

I’m not sure what your question is, but I have read about scholarly analyses of the Book of Mormon, analyses that take into account many facets of the book.

My understanding of the mormon belief is that Joseph Smith translated a history of the native Americans which they call the Book of Mormon.
My question is: Is Snow saying that someone other than Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon? If we all agree that is was Joseph Smith that wrote it with his hand than we can move on to analyze if the Book of Mormon is what Smith claimed it to be.

 

[MelanieAnne]

My understanding of the mormon belief is that Joseph Smith translated a history of the native Americans which they call the Book of Mormon.
My question is: Is Snow saying that someone other than Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon? If we all agree that is was Joseph Smith that wrote it with his hand than we can move on to analyze if the Book of Mormon is what Smith claimed it to be.

I can’t speak for anyone else and I have some posts blocked for certain reasons so kindly forgive any redundancy. I have never heard a claim that someone other than Joseph Smith “translated” the Book of Mormon. While there is a record of Joseph Smith dictating to others, I have not heard that the actual “translation” was done by anyone else.

Having said that, in regards to analyzing the Book of Mormon itself, experience on this forum generally shows that Mormons are resistant to most if not all scholarly analyses or scientific data that casts doubt on the Book of Mormon story. Hence, discussions with Mormons along those lines are usually of little value. There is little to be achieved in providing links to information if that information is going to be summarily rejected on the basis of “feelings”.

 

[paul_c]

You are dishonest and are just making up nonsense to fit your agenda.

PROVE your assertion that “EVERY SINGLE descendant” had to fail to survive in order to explain the DNA record today.

Of course I know you won’t since you are just making it up.

Snow,
I don’ t think you have the right expectation of what is going to happen on this website. You are trying to convert a bunch of Catholic apologists to Mormonism. You shouldn’t expect too much success from people who know enough about the scriptures to identify the obvious departures from the scriptural record that Mormonism requires like.

Abandonment of the law against adultery to satisfy Joseph Smith’s polygamy.

Redefinition of the nature of God to one of a physical being

Belief in procreation in heaven, in direct contrast to Matt22: 29-30: Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.
At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.

The unsupported idea of Christian Apostacy during the Apostolic era.

The concept of Changing doctrines through new revelations, as though God changes his mind

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Let’s see the evidence.

Actually, I know that you can’t and won’t post any such thing. It’s a little to hard for some when you have to prove your claims.

And Mormonism is by far the best example we have of that.

 

[Snow]

Snow,
I don’ t think you have the right expectation of what is going to happen on this website. You are trying to convert a bunch of Catholic apologists to Mormonism.

That’s incorrect. I have never posted anything of a proselytizing nature. On this forum, I don’t claim that The Church of Jesus Christ is true while other denominations are not and that one should convert. I mainly post about factually based matter or post explanation about what we believe.

You shouldn’t expect too much success from people who know enough about the scriptures to identify the obvious departures from the scriptural record that Mormonism requires like.

Abandonment of the law against adultery to satisfy Joseph Smith’s polygamy.

Untrue. We are and have always been opposed to polygamy. Mormons believe or believed that plural marriage was ordained of God, so unless you are claiming that the law of the land (where plural marriage was probably illegal) supersedes the law of God - you know which is not a bad argument for one who does’nt, as a matter of faith, accept the idea that God reveals his will to people, then it is not a matter of adultery. In plural marriage, the participants must be married. You said that it was a scriptural departure. There are numerous examples of polygamy in the Bible where, either no negative judgement is made or where the polygamy is approved or caused by God.

Redefinition of the nature of God to one of a physical being

That’s hardly a scriptural departure. Nothing in scripture indicates that God is not embodied. If you are Catholic, obviously you believe that God is both anthropomorphic and embodied in Jesus Christ.

Belief in procreation in heaven, in direct contrast to Matt22: 29-30: Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.
At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.

I don’t know what you are talking about. The Church of Jesus Christ does not believe, to my knowledge, that people marry or are given in marriage in heaven. We believe that such an ordinance occurs prior to heaven.

The unsupported idea of Christian Apostacy during the Apostolic era.

That too is untrue. You may not believe in but that doesn’t mean that it is unsupported. Feel free to try and prove your claim however.

The concept of Changing doctrines through new revelations, as though God changes his mind

Oh please. We don’t believe that God changes his mind any more that you believe that he changes his mind when, for example, Mosaic law used to apply and now does not apply.

You believe, I assume, that God used to reveal his will to prophets. We believe that he didn’t stop 1900 years ago, but still does.

 

[Snow]

And Mormonism is by far the best example we have of that.

That makes no sense.

What are you trying to say?

 

[Snow]

Weak.

YOU claim that it is a confidence trick, but anyone can say that about any religion. You may be Catholic. Has not the same thing been said of it for over a 1000 years? Yes, yes it has.

… and, if you have read my posts, you know that they aren’t cyber missionary work. They are generally posts about critical thinking, historical matters, and factual corrections.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

You are dishonest and are just making up nonsense to fit your agenda.

PROVE your assertion that “EVERY SINGLE descendant” had to fail to survive in order to explain the DNA record today.

Of course I know you won’t since you are just making it up.

Making what up? That there are no native Americans descended from ancient Israel? You’re the one making that claim, Snow, so the burden is on you. If native Americans are descended from ancient Israel, produce one. Just one. That shouldn’t be difficult if your claims are true.

 

[Snow]

My understanding of the mormon belief is that Joseph Smith translated a history of the native Americans which they call the Book of Mormon.
My question is: Is Snow saying that someone other than Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon? If we all agree that is was Joseph Smith that wrote it with his hand than we can move on to analyze if the Book of Mormon is what Smith claimed it to be.

No. That’s not what I am saying. The poster claimed that “any objective analysis” shows or will show that Joseph Smith authored (not translated) the content of the BoM.

I think she is just making that up. I don’t think that she can point to such “objective analysis” that proves any such thing.

In fact, most or much criticism, not objective, but most criticism re BoM authorship is that Joseph Smith didn’t author the material but that someone else, someone more literate and educated wrote it. Those that knew Joseph Smith best at the time of the “translation” said that he could barely write a coherent sentence.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

… and, if you have read my posts, you know that they aren’t cyber missionary work. They are generally posts about critical thinking, historical matters, and factual corrections.

Oh come on, now!!! Your posts have been nothing but irratioinal claims and obstinate denial. You have stated no facts and certainly no history since Mormons cannot backup a single thing they have alleged with a single verifiable fact.

 

[Snow]

Making what up? That there are no native Americans descended from ancient Israel? You’re the one making that claim, Snow, so the burden is on you. If native Americans are descended from ancient Israel, produce one. Just one. That shouldn’t be difficult if your claims are true.

What claim did I make? Please post an actual quote of what you think I am claiming that needs to be proved.

 

[Snow]

Oh come on, now!!! Your posts have been nothing but irratioinal claims and obstinate denial. You have stated no facts and certainly no history since Mormons cannot backup a single thing they have alleged with a single verifiable fact.

That’s your argument? That I am irrational and obstinate and have stated no facts.

Please tell me what you thought of my posts on Constantine’s role at Nicea. I doubt you can refute a singe “fact.”

What about my posts on Jewish anthropomorphism? Care to disprove any of the facts I’ve posted?

How about the posts on consubstantiality. Can you disprove any of the facts?

How about this… if you are going to assert that I am irrational, how about proving it?

 

[Stephen168]

No. That’s not what I am saying. The poster claimed that “any objective analysis” shows or will show that Joseph Smith authored (not translated) the content of the BoM.

I think she is just making that up. I don’t think that she can point to such “objective analysis” that proves any such thing.

In fact, most or much criticism, not objective, but most criticism re BoM authorship is that Joseph Smith didn’t author the material but that someone else, someone more literate and educated wrote it. Those that knew Joseph Smith best at the time of the “translation” said that he could barely write a coherent sentence.

Are you saying:

1. The Book of Mormon is a history of the American Aborigines.
2. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

What claim did I make? Please post an actual quote of what you think I am claiming that needs to be proved.

I guess I have to spell this out. It’s a collective “you.” I.e., the LDS generally. If you, singular, do not subscribe to that allegation in the BoM, say that and I’ll apologize for making an assumpton.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

What about my posts on Jewish anthropomorphism? Care to disprove any of the facts I’ve posted?

Guess I have to spell this out, too. The subject, as I have followed it, is the legitmacy or not of Mormonism. I restrict my allegations to that topic. Jewish anthropomorphism isn’t on the table.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Guess I have to spell this out, too. The subject, as I have followed it, is the legitmacy or not of Mormonism. I restrict my allegations to that topic. Jewish anthropomorphism isn’t on the table.

Jewish anthropomorphism is easy…paganism, which the Hebrews were quite infected with. What Mormonism ignores is that God has revealed quite clearly the Truth, of ONE God. Mormonism keeps trying to reinsert paganism, in the form of henotheism.