"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[zach_dunn]

Hi Steve, to explain it as simply as I can, Ehp 1:3 tells us upon the believing of the truth, the gospel of our salavation, which is that Jesus died in our place and atoned for our sins, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are saved.

Let’s look at this passage:

Ephesians 1:13
“13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.”

If you take into the account of the rest of Scripture, you can see that baptism and confirmation are actually implied in this verse.

Let’s start with Jesus’ view on believing:

Mark 16:16
“16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

As you can see, Jesus attaches baptism to believing, these two are inseparable for the Christian.

Let’s not forget that those who received Peter’s preaching (aka, the word of God; Lk 10:16. And the gospel; 1 Pet 1:25) were baptized:

The Acts of the Apostles 2:41
“41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.”

So the whole believing in the gospel of our salvation part includes baptism. And as we know from Hebrews 6:2, the laying on of hands (which gives the Holy Spirit) comes after baptism. Ephesians 1:13 is merely a summary of Hebrews 6:2.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Steve GC
Just so I’m clear on this, from your understanding that is…

Under your theology…

Paul’s sins were NOT forgiven when he was originally saved (through belief)? So, when a person is saved, their sins are not forgiven at that moment? ]

Steve, the minute a person believes the gospel of our salvation, his sins are forgiven and atoned for by the blood of Jesus. That’s what calling on His name is all about. However; sins have to be confessed to be washed away from our minds ( guilt is removed. in some cases restitution and at times going to the person and aking for forgiveness). That’s what baptism is all about. The first step of “Repentance” Mat 3:11 & Rom. 6:4 we relate to Christ by dying to our old self (buried/immersed in water) and raised up like Jesus was raised to our new life, a pledge turning to God. Then the sanctifying process begins, when sins comes our attention, they are confessed, good deeds are done, a complete 180 from our old life. as Phil 1:6 states, " being confident of this, that He (Jesus) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." ----- Now the Charismatic Catholics and the Pentecostal Protestant believe in the laying of the hands to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Called the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues Acts 1:5. The ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:5. ED O.

 

[SteveGC]

Steve, the minute a person believes the gospel of our salvation, his sins are forgiven and atoned for by the blood of Jesus. That’s what calling on His name is all about. However; sins have to be confessed to be washed away from our minds ( guilt is removed. in some cases restitution and at times going to the person and aking for forgiveness). That’s what baptism is all about. The first step of “Repentance” Mat 3:11 & Rom. 6:4 we relate to Christ by dying to our old self (buried/immersed in water) and raised up like Jesus was raised to our new life, a pledge turning to God. Then the sanctifying process begins, when sins comes our attention, they are confessed, good deeds are done, a complete 180 from our old life. as Phil 1:6 states, " being confident of this, that He (Jesus) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." ----- Now the Charismatic Catholics and the Pentecostal Protestant believe in the laying of the hands to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Called the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues Acts 1:5. The ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:5. ED O.

OK, I think I see your belief now. “Wash away your sins” doesn’t mean the forgiveness of sins, it means removing the guilt of sin from our minds. Thanks, Ed…just wanted to help clarify the debate here. I’ll turn it back over to Nathan, and/or zach here, as they are better versed in baptism theology than I. Thanks again.

 

[zach_dunn]

Steve, the minute a person believes the gospel of our salvation, his sins are forgiven and atoned for by the blood of Jesus. That’s what calling on His name is all about. However; sins have to be confessed to be washed away from our minds ( guilt is removed. in some cases restitution and at times going to the person and aking for forgiveness). That’s what baptism is all about. The first step of “Repentance” Mat 3:11 & Rom. 6:4 we relate to Christ by dying to our old self (buried/immersed in water) and raised up like Jesus was raised to our new life, a pledge turning to God. Then the sanctifying process begins, when sins comes our attention, they are confessed, good deeds are done, a complete 180 from our old life. as Phil 1:6 states, " being confident of this, that He (Jesus) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." ----- Now the Charismatic Catholics and the Pentecostal Protestant believe in the laying of the hands to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Called the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues Acts 1:5. The ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:5. ED O.

If what Steve says is true, that you believe baptism only washes away the guilt of sin, what do you make of passages such as Acts 2:38 and 1 Cor 6:11? In Acts we see that the remission of sins comes directly from baptism and in first Corinthians we see that water baptism (which incorporates the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 2:38; Jn 3:5; and all of the accounts of Jesus’ baptism) actually justifies us and sanctifies us. It gets rid of the sin and all of the guilt for sins, what do you make of those passages?

Ed, you have this horrendous impression that water baptism is distinct from the “baptism of the Holy Spirit.” What about Acts 8:14-17? The people who received your supposed baptism of the Holy Spirit had already been baptized, and there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5]. What do you make of such passages?

 

[benedictus2]

The above was stated in a thread on another topic by one of our forum members, and instead of derailing the thread, I thought I’d start one here to see if our wonderful Catholic members could refute him…

There’s more, but I want to get to the gist of the topic of this thread: Do Catholics reject John 3 - IOW, do we focus on particulars of this chapter as prime proof-text of the Sacrament of Baptism - or do we consider all of this chapter as declarations of the Truth?

I say we do and this text IS about Baptism along with rebirth into new life…but our friend feels otherwise

The proof we use for Baptism is more than just John 3. There’s Acts, Peter and Paul’s writings as well.

On the contrary, Protestants do not accept the whole of John 3, they only take the little bit about being born again. This is the whole problem that comes from a selective reading of the Bible. It is really a case of Partial Scriptura

And when you look at it, Jesus did not even really say born again but “born from above”. Immediately after the discourse, Jesus went baptizing with his disciples even though he did not do any baptizing Himself. If water baptism is not important, why then did He submit to it.

Perhaps protestants should be directed to 1Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

 

[benedictus2]

Steve, the minute a person believes the gospel of our salvation, his sins are forgiven and atoned for by the blood of Jesus.

Not quite. The Bible does not support this.

That’s what calling on His name is all about. However; sins have to be confessed to be washed away from our minds ( guilt is removed. in some cases restitution and at times going to the person and aking for forgiveness).

Jesus said not everyone who calls Him Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom

That’s what baptism is all about.

No it is not. Why do you say that baptism is about confessing sins when these two are completely distinct from each other in the Bible. Baptism is a rite of incorporation into the Body of Christ although it does cleans us from original sin and any personal sin when we are baptized.

The first step of “Repentance” Mat 3:11 & Rom. 6:4 we relate to Christ by dying to our old self (buried/immersed in water) and raised up like Jesus was raised to our new life, a pledge turning to God. Then the sanctifying process begins, when sins comes our attention, they are confessed, good deeds are done, a complete 180 from our old life. as Phil 1:6 states, " being confident of this, that He (Jesus) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." ----- Now the Charismatic Catholics and the Pentecostal Protestant believe in the laying of the hands to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Called the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues Acts 1:5. The ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:5. ED O.

Matthew 28
16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Zach dunn
Ed, you have this horrendous impression that water baptism is distinct from the “baptism of the Holy Spirit.” What about Acts 8:14-17? The people who received your supposed baptism of the Holy Spirit had already been baptized, and there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5]. What do you make of such passages?

Hi Zach, you present the exact Scriptures that destroys your false theology that the Holy Spirit is attained at water baptism-----. The people in Acts 8:12 were water baptized and here they should have received the Holy Spirit but it was not so. v16 states "because the Holy Sprit had NOT yet come upon any of them. v17 When Peter and John laid hands on them they then received the Holy Spirit.

In plain English v 12 tells me they were water batized v16 tells me altough they were water baptized they still had NOT recieved the Holy Spirit until v17 when hands were laid upon them by Peter and John.

So where did they receive the Holy Spirit at water baptism or later when hands were placed on them by the apostles who reveived the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. The baptism that Jesus speaks about in Acts 1:5 & the baptism that John spoke about in Mat 3:11?

If there’s only one baptism as Eph 4:5 states, where does the Holy Spirit come upon a person? At water baptism or at the laying of hands by a person who had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by benedictus 2
Not quite. The Bible does not support this.

When you make a statement like this, show me by Scripture that the Bible does not support what I said

Jesus said not everyone who calls Him Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom

Once again, show the Scripture that you are referring to.

No it is not. Why do you say that baptism is about confessing sins when these two are completely distinct from each other in the Bible. Baptism is a rite of incorporation into the Body of Christ although it does cleans us from original sin and any personal sin when we are baptized

Again, your statement lacks Scripture support. As a matter of fact, There is NO SCRIPTURE that specifically states that water baptism cleanses us from original sin and personal sin. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Zach Dunn
Let’s look at this passage:

Ephesians 1:13
“13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.”

If you take into the account of the rest of Scripture, you can see that baptism and confirmation are actually implied in this verse.

Let’s start with Jesus’ view on believing:

Mark 16:16
“16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

As you can see, Jesus attaches baptism to believing, these two are inseparable for the Christian.

Let’s not forget that those who received Peter’s preaching (aka, the word of God; Lk 10:16. And the gospel; 1 Pet 1:25) were baptized:

The Acts of the Apostles 2:41
“41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.”

So the whole believing in the gospel of our salvation part includes baptism. And as we know from Hebrews 6:2, the laying on of hands (which gives the Holy Spirit) comes after baptism. Ephesians 1:13 is merely a summary of Hebrews 6:2

This is what’s been posted above on #578

Let’s look at this passage:

Ephesians 1:13
“13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.”

If you take into the account of the rest of Scripture, you can see that baptism and confirmation are actually implied in this verse.

MY RESPONSE: It says nothing about baptism and confirmation being implied here. It specifically states our salvation of the gospel is by BELIEF in Jesus.

Let’s start with Jesus’ view on believing:

Mark 16:16
“16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

As you can see, Jesus attaches baptism to believing, these two are inseparable for the Christian.

MY RESPONSE: You are correct! Something that I always agreed with, they are inseparable. We get saved by hearing the gospel. And we respond by being water baptized to show our repentance, as 1Peter 3:21 states, A pledge of good conscience towards God.

Let’s not forget that those who received Peter’s preaching (aka, the word of God; Lk 10:16. And the gospel; 1 Pet 1:25) were baptized:

MY RESPONSE: Yes to show repentance, and Peter specifically states here that, “born again” comes through hearing the word of God and NOT by water baptism.

The Acts of the Apostles 2:41
"41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

MY RESPONSE: They got saved by hearing the gospel and then they were baptized to show repentance

So the whole believing in the gospel of our salvation part includes baptism. And as we know from Hebrews 6:2, the laying on of hands (which gives the Holy Spirit) comes after baptism. Ephesians 1:13 is merely a summary of Hebrews 6:2.

MY RESPONSE: Yes baptism is included for repentance and the holy Spirit does NOT come about from water baptism as you correctly state here. ED O.

 

[zach_dunn]

When you make a statement like this, show me by Scripture that the Bible does not support what I said

The following is EVERY Scripture that does NOT support your assertion, just like you asked for:

Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21

And that’s it.

Once again, show the Scripture that you are referring to.

If you would do a search of his words, you would get the exact Scripture:
**
Matthew 7:21**
“21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

There it is, in “plain English.”

Again, your statement lacks Scripture support. As a matter of fact, There is NO SCRIPTURE that specifically states that water baptism cleanses us from original sin and personal sin. ED O.

You are wrong.

The Acts of the Apostles 2:38
“38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Original sin is sin and actual sins are sin. According to your principles this has to be water baptism because you say John’s water baptism is of repentance and penance and THAT baptism is what Peter is talking about. There is also this:

1 Corinthians 6:11
“11 And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.”

The washed obviously refers to baptism, what other kind of “washing” is there in Christianity? As you can see, with this washing comes justification and sanctification which means there is no more sin in the person.

 

[zach_dunn]

Hi Zach, you present the exact Scriptures that destroys your false theology that the Holy Spirit is attained at water baptism-----. The people in Acts 8:12 were water baptized and here they should have received the Holy Spirit but it was not so. v16 states "because the Holy Sprit had NOT yet come upon any of them. v17 When Peter and John laid hands on them they then received the Holy Spirit.

In plain English v 12 tells me they were water batized v16 tells me altough they were water baptized they still had NOT recieved the Holy Spirit until v17 when hands were laid upon them by Peter and John.

You misunderstand what is being said here, let me show you a commentary on this passage:

Ver. 15. The Holy Ghost, which the apostles came to give the Samaritan Neophytes, was not the spirit of grace, of justice, and of sanctity, for that they had received at baptism; but the spirit of strength, to confess with confidence and freedom the name of Jesus, and the supernatural and miraculous graces, usually at that time granted to the faithful, by the imposition of hands. Philip did not administer the sacrament, because he could not; he was not a bishop. Hence now in the Church, we see only the chief pastors do it, præcipuos et non alios videmus hoc facere. See St. Chrysostom, hom. xviii. in Acta. — There is no mention here, it is true, of unction, but the most venerable antiquity clearly specifies it. St. Cyprian, in the third age [third century], says: “it is moreover necessary, that he who has been baptized, should be anointed, that having received the chrism, that is, the unction, he may be the anointed of God.” (Ep. lxx.) — In the next age [fourth century], St. Pacianus writes: “Do you say that this (the power of remitting sins) was granted only to the apostles? Then I say, that they alone could baptize, and give the Holy Spirit, for to them alone was the command of doing it given. If, therefore, the right of conferring baptism, and of anointing, descended to their successors, to them also has come the power of binding and loosing.” (Ep. i. ad Sym. Bibl. Max. T. iv. p. 307)

Ver. 17. They received the Holy Ghost. Not but that they had received the grace of the Holy Ghost at their baptism; but not that plentitude of grace, and those gifts, which they received from bishops in the sacrament of confirmation. This sacrament, as St. Chrysostom observes,[2] St. Philip, the deacon, had not power to give. (Witham)

This is from the Haydock Commentary.

We receive to kinds of grace from the Holy Spirit, from baptism we receive the remission of sins which includes justification and sanctification [Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 6:11], at confirmation we receive the ability “to confess with confidence and freedom the name of Jesus, and the supernatural and miraculous graces” [Acts 19:6; Rom 8:15]. That’s Church and the Bible teaching, you still haven’t told me how you can reconcile a belief of two baptisms with Ephesians 4:5.

So where did they receive the Holy Spirit at water baptism or later when hands were placed on them by the apostles who reveived the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. The baptism that Jesus speaks about in Acts 1:5 & the baptism that John spoke about in Mat 3:11?

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking for here, but I’ll try to answer.

Ok, your first mistake is thinking that when Jesus says “baptism of the Holy Spirit” means there is no longer water in the baptism. When Jesus says this, He is simply saying that when the Apostles baptize it is actually efficacious. If Jesus was actually replacing water baptism all together, why, then, did the Apostles continue to baptize with water? They did because that is the way Jesus meant to give us the Holy Spirits initial grace, the Spirit and water make up ONE baptism [Jn 3:5; Eph 4:5]. After this, a Christian needs the completion of this grace to be able to meet the challenges of a Christian lifestyle.

If there’s only one baptism as Eph 4:5 states, where does the Holy Spirit come upon a person? At water baptism or at the laying of hands by a person who had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.? ED O.

This is how it goes: we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit which include the remission of sins (including justification and sanctification [Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 6:11]). Then, the believer is confirmed by the imposition of hands by an apostle or their successor, they are distinct as seen in Hebrews 6:2.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The Sacraments of the New Covenant contain the grace which they signify, and bestow it on those who do not hinder it. (De fide)

The outward sign of the sacraments is composed of 2 essential parts, namely, thing and word (Sent. fidei proxima)

Scripture clearly stresses the 2 essential parts of the outward sign, for Baptism:
“That He might sanctify it (the Church) cleanses it by the laver of water in the word of life.”
Cf. Mt 26:26, 28:19; Acts 8:15; James 5:14; Acts 6:6

“Take away the words, what then is the water but water. The words are added to the element, and the Sacrament emerges” (St Augustine)

 

[zach_dunn]

MY RESPONSE: It says nothing about baptism and confirmation being implied here. It specifically states our salvation of the gospel is by BELIEF in Jesus.

I honestly don’t understand what you’re saying, maybe you can be more clear? This verse does not, I repeat: does not, say we are saved by belief; if you read it closer you see that because you believe in Christ you are sealed with the Holy Spirit (aka confirmation). This verse says that the word of truth = gospel of your salvation. What does that gospel consist of? Christ’s death and Resurrection, also that Jesus is God and the fact that we must be baptized, etc.

MY RESPONSE: You are correct! Something that I always agreed with, they are inseparable. We get saved by hearing the gospel. And we respond by being water baptized to show our repentance, as 1Peter 3:21 states, A pledge of good conscience towards God.

You can not find biblical support for the bolded statement. In the Bible we learn that faith comes through hearing, not salvation. 1 Pet 3:21 also directly teaches that baptism saves, just what are you getting at?

MY RESPONSE: Yes to show repentance, and Peter specifically states here that, “born again” comes through hearing the word of God and NOT by water baptism.

You are constantly adding words to Scripture!!! Peter is NOT talking about being born again in 1 Pet 1:25, he is saying that his preaching is the word of the Lord (which is the same as the gospel of salvation [Eph 1:13]). You might notice that in Peter’s preaching, baptism is demanded, Acts 2:38.

MY RESPONSE: They got saved by hearing the gospel and then they were baptized to show repentance

Once again you have not and can not provide Scriptural evidence for this assertion.

MY RESPONSE: Yes baptism is included for repentance and the holy Spirit does NOT come about from water baptism as you correctly state here. ED O.

I did not say what you say I said. Read what I said and comment again please.

 

[benedictus2]

When you make a statement like this, show me by Scripture that the Bible does not support what I said

But isn’t that the whole point of my reply? I cannot give you scriptural support because there is no scriptural support.

Once again, show the Scripture that you are referring to.

Now this one you are correct in requiring scriptural support although as a Bible believing Christian I thought you would know exactly what I meant.
Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Again, your statement lacks Scripture support. As a matter of fact, There is NO SCRIPTURE that specifically states that water baptism cleanses us from original sin and personal sin. ED O.

The very etymology of the word baptism means that it pertains to water baptism although newer meanings have evolved from it. Baptism comes from the greek word “baptizo” meaning to immerse or dip in water.

I quoted the verse below in an earlier post (the one before my post to you so I thought you already saw that one.

1 Peter 3:18-23
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Originally Posted by EdOsiecki
Steve, the minute a person believes the gospel of our salvation, his sins are forgiven and atoned for by the blood of Jesus. That’s what calling on His name is all about. However; sins have to be confessed to be washed away from our minds ( guilt is removed. in some cases restitution and at times going to the person and aking for forgiveness). That’s what baptism is all about. The first step of “Repentance” Mat 3:11 & Rom. 6:4 we relate to Christ by dying to our old self (buried/immersed in water) and raised up like Jesus was raised to our new life, a pledge turning to God. Then the sanctifying process begins, when sins comes our attention, they are confessed, good deeds are done, a complete 180 from our old life. as Phil 1:6 states, " being confident of this, that He (Jesus) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." ----- Now the Charismatic Catholics and the Pentecostal Protestant believe in the laying of the hands to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Called the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues Acts 1:5. The ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:5. ED O. RESPONSE: Ed, you are reading words into Scripture. You have also ignored my explanation of what a covenant throughout Scripture actually entails, and so your description of “calling on the name” is unbiblical. Repentance in and of itself does not always remove guilt, and since that is the case, Ananias implying that self-carried guilt would automatically be washed away by the act of water baptism is ridiculous. You can still carry guilt, and anybody that has truly sinned seriously can bear witness that they are never removed from your minds. Besides, this viewpoint of your has no scriptural support, and so is actually guilty of the very thing you seem to like to accuse us of. The simple fact is, you have to explain Ananias’ words by adding more in, quite a bit more. The simple fact is, the Holy Spirit can come down more than once, but your sins are washed away only once. You already stated that the Holy Spirit cannot come into a sinful man, yet Ananias says that Saul has not only not received the Holy Spirit (in any sense) but he has not had his sins washed away. I, and anybody else on this thread, should not take anything you have to say seriously unless you can take this passage seriously. It is very plain. Saul had not had his sins washed away yet. Then show me a Biblical passage that supports your contention of having “self-contained” guilt and the memory of sins washed away. You won’t find one. All guilt is objective, not subjective, sins and guilt are removed regardless of whether we are able to “let go.” And our guilt should already be gone at the moment of belief, since we “know” that is when we are saved, so why would baptism be the moment? So unless you can show me Scripture to support your novel dichotomy of salvation and guilt, then we must take the text at face value. Baptism is what washes away our sins. Pretty plain Ed. You can’t do that though, your theology won’t let you, so you add to the Bible.

Again, your statement lacks Scripture support. As a matter of fact, There is NO SCRIPTURE that specifically states that water baptism cleanses us from original sin and personal sin.** RESPONSE: I’m not even sure that you understand what the Catholic belief of original sin actually is. If original sin is grace lost at the fall and the gaining of concupiscence, then receiving the Holy Spirit through the baptismal water automatically “washes away” Original sin by replacing what was lost. This is a logical deduction. I am curious why you keep referring to “original sin” when it is stated nowhere in the Bible. Why should you be allowed to say “original sin” and “trinity” but I am not allowed to say “infusion?” Also, I already showed you the passage. Ananias seems t think it’s washing away Saul’s sins. You have to prove through Scripture that isn’t what he really means, he really means guilt. You won’t be able to do it Ed. Combine this with Peter’s verses that baptism saves us (implying the washing away of sin) then you are simply ignoring common sense. You believe baptism saves us, but argue that it’s baptism of the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness of sins is what saves us. Ananias further clarifies the fact that he is referring to water, and again says that it forgives sins. Just with a few passages it says would you stubbornly refuse to admit. The baptism is calling on his name, the baptism gives the Holy Spirit, and the baptism washes away sins. It doesn’t say guilt Ed, and the Greeks had a word for that. It says sins. You can’t just say we are wrong, you have to give us Scripture. Your dichotomy between salvation and guilt is just as unbiblical as what you think belief actually means. I have proven my side, you have not proven yours.**

 

[ryanoneil]

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (John 3:5)

not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior (Titus 3:5-6)

enter the kingdom of God / he saved us
born of water and Spirit. / bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit

let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. (Heb 10:22)

who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 3:20-21)

sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / saved through water, baptism.
from an evil conscience / for a clear conscience

Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ”
through Jesus Christ our savior / through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Nathan Wagar
Originally Posted by EdOsiecki
Steve, the minute a person believes the gospel of our salvation, his sins are forgiven and atoned for by the blood of Jesus. That’s what calling on His name is all about. However; sins have to be confessed to be washed away from our minds ( guilt is removed. in some cases restitution and at times going to the person and aking for forgiveness). That’s what baptism is all about. The first step of “Repentance” Mat 3:11 & Rom. 6:4 we relate to Christ by dying to our old self (buried/immersed in water) and raised up like Jesus was raised to our new life, a pledge turning to God. Then the sanctifying process begins, when sins comes our attention, they are confessed, good deeds are done, a complete 180 from our old life. as Phil 1:6 states, " being confident of this, that He (Jesus) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." ----- Now the Charismatic Catholics and the Pentecostal Protestant believe in the laying of the hands to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Called the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues Acts 1:5. The ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:5. ED O. **RESPONSE: Ed, you are reading words into Scripture. You have also ignored my explanation of what a covenant throughout Scripture actually entails, and so your description of “calling on the name” is unbiblical.**Nathan, when you respond please don’t write a whole chapter. Now let me respond to this much of what you wrote above. What in the world are you talking about that I have ignored your explanation of what a covenant throughtout Scripture actually entails? ----Tell me in a few words. -----You say my “calling on the name” is unbiblical. Proove it by Scripture and not what you think. Let’s debate only this much. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Nathan, I’m waiting for your response. Don’t give up when I trash you. ED O.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Ed I’m not giving up when you “trash me.” I tend not to feel like responding, however, for a very key reason:

Every time we focus on a specific point (such as Saul’s baptism), you decide to respond to a very select portion of my post when you don’t have an answer. I’m not letting you do that. I want you to prove your point. Somehow you think Ananias is not referring to the washing away of sins (even though that’s exactly what he says); you think it refers to guilt. So prove it. Prove from somewhere in the Bible that personal guilty feelings over sins is ever equated with sins themselves, and then explain why Ananias didn’t just say guilt to begin with.

AFTER you do that, which is what I’ve been trying to get you to do for a few pages worth of thread now, we will move on to other related topics.

 

[benedictus2]

Nathan, when you respond please don’t write a whole chapter. Now let me respond to this much of what you wrote above. What in the world are you talking about that I have ignored your explanation of what a covenant throughtout Scripture actually entails? ----Tell me in a few words. -----You say my “calling on the name” is unbiblical. Proove it by Scripture and not what you think. Let’s debate only this much. ED O.

I think what Nathan was trying to explain to you is that “baptismal regineration” is not effected by merely calling on the name of Jesus. And he is right, you cannot support that from the Bible.