"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

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Zundrah said:
He he, do you go to church? Have you ever been to church?
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I have attended some episcopalian churches, and visited others, mostly for weddings.

I went to a messianic congregation for a while. That was good. Spiritually it was

insightful.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
I think this thread has run it’s course.
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…it has definately gone off-topic.
geometer said:
I have attended some episcopalian churches, and visited others, mostly for weddings.

I went to a messianic congregation for a while. That was good. Spiritually it was

insightful.
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You need to go to church. God said, “remember my sabbath days, to keep them holy.”
 
Zundrah said:
…it has definately gone off-topic.

You need to go to church. God said, “remember my sabbath days, to keep them holy.”
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Churches don’t meet on the Sabbath and jews tell me that I don’t know how to keep the Sabbath.
 
Jews don’t believe in the Jesus you say you met, and the Bible says that the Church is the pillar of truth. Guess when the Church says the Sabbath is? See you at mass, bud.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Jews don’t believe in the Jesus you say you met, and the Bible says that the Church is the pillar of truth. Guess when the Church says the Sabbath is? See you at mass, bud.
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Catholics say that I am not to participate in the Mass because I am not catholic.
 
geometer said:
Catholics say that I am not to participate in the Mass because I am not catholic.
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Hey, a catholic here at CAF once told me that too! But I just ignored him and went to my roman catholic church anyway. (Don’t listen to meanies). 😉
 
Hi Nathan, since you are ignoring me per post 325, I’ll answer your Eph. 4:5 one baptism in this manner. Water baptism does not infuse the Holy Spirit. I can’t find any Scripture that indicates so. Water baptism is what John says it is Mat 3:11 water for repentance. Jesus in Acts 1:5, “ For John baptized with water” (he did not say it infuses you with the Holy Spirit) He went on to say, “but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” And that took place without water per Acts 2:4, Peter also in Acts 11:16, “John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” Paul in Heb 6:2 speaks about baptisms (plural) and the laying of the hands. As I read the New American Catholic bible side commentary it says,” Laying of hands: in Acts 8:17-19 & 19:6 this rite effects the infusion of the Holy Spirit”------To Summarize: there is one baptism in the Holy Spirit and it does not come about by water baptism as you claim. I find no Scripture to support it. Eph. 1:13. ”In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise” This appears to be the same that took place in Acts 10:44, While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message” No water baptism. It’s the belief in Jesus that brings on the Holy Spirit the One baptism that unites us with Christ. Water baptism is an act of righteousness, showing our desire to turn to God, which we do as commanded by Jesus. This is the way I understand the above. ED O.
 
Thank you Ed. You finally read my post.

Now this is where you really messed up:

“To Summarize: there is one baptism in the Holy Spirit…”

Nope. There is one BAPTISM Ed. That’s all Ephesians says. Not one “baptism of the holy Spirit,” it says “one baptism.” Don’t you dare try to add words in there after you freaked out on Saint Clement, that just wouldn’t be right 🙂

And the reason why you are adding words, Ed? Because you know I’m right. If you say the baptism of the Holy Spirit is separate from the water, then Jesus and the apostles required two baptisms. The fact is, even if you’re right, and the Holy Spirit is the baptism that saves us, separate from the water, Jesus requires the “symbolic” water as well. This violates Ephesians 4, which states “one baptism.” Don’t read your theology into Scripture, Ed, take the text for what it says. You’re stuck. Please keep trying though, this is getting humorous. Only after you successfully argue yourself out of this one, single, verse, will I take apart the rest of your argument all over again.
 
And geometer, don’t let anyone ever tell you that you can’t go to mass. Just when you walk up to the priest, instead of taking the host, cross both your arms over your chest, and he will bless you instead. Whoever told you that you can’t go to mass should be slapped twice.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Nope. There is one BAPTISM Ed. That’s all Ephesians says. Not one “baptism of the holy Spirit,”…
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I think Ed emphasized Baptism of the “Holy Spirit” for clarity.
You have been claiming water infuses the Holy Spirit. Ed is pointing out your claim contradicts Scriptures.

I agree with Ed water has to do with the physical, but I don’t think it refers to our physical birth (if that is what he meant)

The NT tells us the old is gone and the new has come. Hebrews 10 is really great for understanding the old rituals were made perfect in Jesus.

Something changed drastically with original sin. All of the old rituals were compensating for that lost until Jesus reconciled us back to the Father.

There are three aspects of Baptism described in the Bible - but one Baptism.

Just as there is One God who reveals Himself to mankind in Three ways, their is one Baptism. This Baptism was incomplete before the resurrection, but made perfect in Christ Jesus.

John Baptized for repentance because that is all that was humanly possible, until the resurrection when Jesus reconciled us to God.

Ginger
 
Geometer,

I am skeptical because the Bible warns me to be skeptical. Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits because even satan masquerades as an angel of light.

I have visited churches where people are convinced God has given them a visible gift like speaking in tongues, healing, or prophecy.

I visited a church for a Baptism one time. I was given the opportunity to witness what God has done for me. After word a man who the entire church held as a prophet came to me and told me he had a message from God for me.

I am always open to the Holy Spirit speaking thru people, so I agreed to listen to the message.

This man was no prophet. He heard my testimony and responded according to what he had heard.

We need to take care not to be deceived and not to deceive ourselves, either.

In another forum, a man talked about how he had been praying for God to give him the gift of speaking in tongues, but he hadn’t received that gift and didn’t understand why.

I told him that maybe he has been so busy asking for the gift that he desired, he has failed to recognize the gifts God has already blessed him with. He should ask God what God wants for him instead and then for God to present the opportunities to use those gifts.

What I am getting at is you need to discern whether or not your gift of prophecy is real or pretend, from God or from somewhere else.

What do you get out of this gift? Praise from others? A sense of feeling special?

What do others get out of this gift? A fast, easy way to get the answers they are seeking?

What is the spiritual fruit from this gift?

I would love to have the gift of healing. Just lay my hands on someone and “POOF!” the cancer is gone!

But that is not my gift. I do not have a showy gift like healing or prophecy. My gift is much more subtle, yet just as great.

I am not saying one way or the other…I am asking you to ask God for discernment.

Ginger
 
geometer said:
This is just another example of how you stonewall.

Do you know why you stonewall discussions about the scriptures? And please do not answer my question with another question, there has been enough of that kind or rudeness in this thread.
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What’s the matter with answering with questions? Jesus almost always did that in scripture–with the Pharisees.
 
Jacafamala said:
What’s the matter with answering with questions? Jesus almost always did that in scripture–with the Pharisees.
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Almost always? I don’t think so.

When Jesus responded with a question it was usually, if not always, because someone was trying to trap him.

Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had [his] hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out?

But then Jesus did answer the question, without being asked again!

Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

Again, Jesus answered the question.

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

There is only one verse I can think of when Jesus did not answer on the basis the Pharisees could not answer his question.

Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

Do you think Geometer is trying to trap someone so that he might accuse them of wrong-doing?

Sometimes it’s OK to use a question to make a point or draw an analogy. But I reject your using Jesus to defend that tactic, as I have never seen anyone here use it as Jesus did.

Ginger
 
Ginger2 said:
Geometer,

I am skeptical because the Bible warns me to be skeptical. Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits because even satan masquerades as an angel of light.

What I am getting at is you need to discern whether or not your gift of prophecy is real or pretend, from God or from somewhere else.

What do you get out of this gift? Praise from others? A sense of feeling special?

What do others get out of this gift? A fast, easy way to get the answers they are seeking?

What is the spiritual fruit from this gift?

I would love to have the gift of healing. Just lay my hands on someone and “POOF!” the cancer is gone!

But that is not my gift. I do not have a showy gift like healing or prophecy. My gift is much more subtle, yet just as great.

I am not saying one way or the other…I am asking you to ask God for discernment.
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Well, everyone in this thread it seems is in a rush to find a prophet I guess. I haven’t said anything about prophecy.

However, a few years ago I had dream. I dreamt that I was in the library at the retreat house of Holy Cross Abbey. I was sitting across the table from a large black woman who was telling me all kinds of things. The scene changed and was asking the cook about Fr. Edward. The cook told me that Fr. Edward was now in a nursing home with some of the other monks. I asked her what would be a good gift to bring him when I visit. She said that he gets cold and I should bring him a sweater, but that I should also ask brother Leo because he has visited them a few days ago.

Later I met Br. Leo and asked him about a gift, he said not to bring a sweater because the nursing home is warm. He said to bring a small box of chocolate, because Fr. Edward forgets everything.

__________-

Last month I went on retreat to the monastery, and those things that I dreamed actually happened. The big black woman gave me a talk that lasted two hours. This was supposed to be a silent retreat so the retreat master complained to her a few times. I had no idea that there would be women on the retreat, I thought it was for single men only.

The next day after hearing her two hour talk about her life as a minister, and a prophet, and that most of her friends are prophets, and that she believed that I was a prophet, I told her that I had dreamed of her whole speach in the library a few years ago.

Her face lit up she seemed very pleased that I had confirmed her prophecy that I was a prophet.

However, dreams of future experiences are had by everyone. I believe there is more to what a prophet does than simply seeing the future in dreams and visions.
 
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