"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[geometer]

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and * my new name.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.*

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Thanks geometer. Maybe you didn’t read my post. I asked you to supply the verse you actually referenced.

 

[EdOsiecki]

P

Posted By Nathan
Ed. I won’t use John 3:5, since we disagree far too much on that passage. I still think the fact that Ezekiel ties in with it makes the infusion concept quite clear, but so be it.

However, Acts 2:38: "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

This is pretty self-explanatory Ed. Combined with the next two passages (which describe the same event), and it seems very obvious to me that infusion is being described.

Acts 9:17-19:17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Acts 22:12-16:“A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14“Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

The above make it clear that Saul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, not the moment of belief. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized, which just so happens to be when his sins were forgiven. This is what infusion means. If your belief is true, Ed, he would have been saved long before, because he had direct revelation from Jesus, and thus his belief would have saved him already

Nathan, I’m sorry I can’t debate this post tonight anymore because it’s 11:20 P.M… I play sax in our church’s orchestra, which means that I have to get up up at 5:30 A.M. to play our two morning services and one evening service. So have a goodnight! ED O.

P.S. But let’s limit this debate to what’s on this post when I return Okay?

 

[geometer]

Thanks geometer. Maybe you didn’t read my post. I asked you to supply the verse you actually referenced.

The second quote is one that you asked for. I can not recall where Pauls confession is about not having overcome. I use the KJV and the RSV so I am often looking for the wrong word.

 

[MariaG]

MariaG, I apologize that I misunderstood your post. I thought you ment that you went back and read Nathan’s posts. However; I asked you too, to give me the Scripture that indicates that the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism, wouldn’t it be simply easier to do that than to write all of this? E D O.

Thank you Ed Simpler? Maybe, but before one can have a dialogue, you have to make sure the person is listening. I can see that you are now I briefly looked and saw that Nathan, whom knows what he has posted and has not, has already posted some more or possibly new?

I know that eventually, neither of us will probably be convinced, although I do pray for conviction for the Holy Spirit, but honestly, for ME, (can’t speak for Nathan) it would be enough if you can eventually say you disagree with the interpretation, but now understand that we believe what we believe and that there is scripture that we misinterpret(according to you) for it.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

PNathan, I’m sorry I can’t debate this post tonight anymore because it’s 11:20 P.M… I play sax in our church’s orchestra, which means that I have to get up up at 5:30 A.M. to play our two morning services and one evening service. So have a goodnight! ED O.

P.S. But let’s limit this debate to what’s on this post when I return Okay?

May your playing give glory to Him

 

[EdOsiecki]

MariaG
May your playing give glory to Him:gopray

Hi MariaG, thanks for your reply, that’s exactly what was done and why I was called to that ministry. As our pastor frequently reminds the congregation saying, " the choir and orchestra are not here to entertain but to give glory to God". It’s all about what Jesus has done for us on the Cross and to Him we give all glory. ED O.

 

[MariaG]

Hi MariaG, thanks for your reply, that’s exactly what was done and why I was called to that ministry. As our pastor frequently reminds the congregation saying, " the choir and orchestra are not here to entertain but to give glory to God". It’s all about what Jesus has done for us on the Cross and to Him we give all glory. ED O.

There is a little saying up in the choir loft that says “He who sings well, prays twice” and the same could be said of those who use their God given talents playing musical instruments for Him.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hi Nathan, To summarize our debate and in reference to post 475, I say that the Holy Spirit is given upon the BELIEF in Jesus and I have supplied the exact Scripture that says so Eph.1:3, And you also were included in Christ when you HEARD the word of truth, the GOSPEL of YOUR SALVATION. Having, BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a Seal, the promised HOLY SPIRIT

You say per Acts 9:17-19 and Acts 22:12-16 which is a repeat of the former, that Saul/Paul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, NOT the moment of belief and he did NOT receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized.

Your statement would then contradicts Eph 1:3 above. Would you please explain that to me. As short as possible. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by MariaG
There is a little saying up in the choir loft that says “He who sings well, prays twice” and the same could be said of those who use their God given talents playing musical instruments for Him.

God Bless,
Maria

Hi Maria G, I like you, you says nice things about me! I believe your statement even though it’s about me. When I play the sax, it’s hard to receive the message (lyrics) of the song while I have to concentrate on hitting the right notes, so in my mind as I’m playing, I tell Jesus, “Thanks for saving my soul and for the talent that you have given me to honor you with” ED O.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Nathan, To summarize our debate and in reference to post 475, I say that the Holy Spirit is given upon the BELIEF in Jesus and I have supplied the exact Scripture that says so Eph.1:3, And you also were included in Christ when you HEARD the word of truth, the GOSPEL of YOUR SALVATION. Having, BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a Seal, the promised HOLY SPIRIT

You say per Acts 9:17-19 and Acts 22:12-16 which is a repeat of the former, that Saul/Paul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, NOT the moment of belief and he did NOT receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized.

Your statement would then contradicts Eph 1:3 above. Would you please explain that to me. As short as possible. ED O.

If I may?

The Catholic Church does believe that one can be saved without baptism. This is because of scripture that DOES refer to it. HOWEVER, scripture ALSO talks of those who do not in fact receive the Holy Spirit but it is not until Baptism that this happens.

It is not a case of only one way. All things are possible through Christ. The only way ALL of scripture makes sense is if one can be saved through belief but also if one truly is born again, through the Holy Spirit through baptism as other scripture tells us.

This is of course taking into account that when you say one believes that you mean that same thing as Catholics when we say faith, hope and love. Jimmy Akin wrote a nice article on it, I will see if I can scare it up. It basically says we don’t always have to disagree with those who say we are saved by faith alone because usually it means the same as Catholics who say faith working with love.

God bless,
Maria

 

[crowcounty]

amen

 

[maryrev12]

To all who followed Nathan and my debate

I say that we are SAVED upon the BELIEF in the GOSPEL. By believing, we are seal by the HOLY SPIRIT.---- Nathan says NO! Because the Holy Spirit is infused by water Baptism.

Here’s my Scripture proof, Eph 1:13, “ And you also were included ( I’m now part of God’s family) when you heard the TRUTH, the GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. ( Jesus died, atoned for our sins and was raised from the dead). Having BELIEVED ( what? The gospel!) you ( which means me) were marked in Him with the SEAL of the promised HOLY SPIRIT.” …

Dear Brother- You have quoted a lot of scripture on being saved. Scripture states a miriad of ways to be “saved”
Matthew 13:13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
this scripture says "enduring to the end
Matthew 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;This one says to believe and be baptised
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. this one says faith
John 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. and this one says simply call on Him
Romans 8:24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? This one says Hope
Romans 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: This one says just be Jewish
1 corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.This one says to remember…
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:This one says it is by grace
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;this one says his mercy and baptism
1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…This one says baptism

the thing is that the Lord is the one doing the saving- And He is the one who insituted baptism. It is everywhere in the scriptures.
2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Would you not obey out of love for your Father? John the baptist said that the Holy Spirit comes with baptism:
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

When Jesus was baptised- did not the Holy Ghost descend upon him?

It is plain that the Lord will bring to himself those who call upon him with a sincere heart. It is also plain that the Lord Jesus himself was baptised and received the Holy Spirit. It isn’t up to you to decide the way God works- it is up to God. The scriptures show it both ways. We however must obey- right? If our Lord is baptised and recieves the Holy Spirit- that is enough for me! tHat and His Church teaches it!

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

"Hi Nathan, To summarize our debate and in reference to post 475, I say that the Holy Spirit is given upon the BELIEF in Jesus and I have supplied the exact Scripture that says so Eph.1:3, And you also were included in Christ when you HEARD the word of truth, the GOSPEL of YOUR SALVATION. Having, BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a Seal, the promised HOLY SPIRIT

You say per Acts 9:17-19 and Acts 22:12-16 which is a repeat of the former, that Saul/Paul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, NOT the moment of belief and he did NOT receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized.

Your statement would then contradicts Eph 1:3 above. Would you please explain that to me. As short as possible. ED O."

****RESPONSE: Ed, you are saying that my statement contradicts Ephesians 1:3. What I said was an exact quote from Scripture. Either you have to admit that Scripture contradicts itself, or your interpetation is wrong. Paul believed. He wasn’t saved. Paul got baptized, Paul was saved. Now you have to honestly look back at your interpretation of what constitutes belief, and see if you can truly say that it stands this test. The simple answer is, it doesn’t. This is a truly priceless example of fitting your own theology into the text, at the risk of denying the Bible, which I am POSITIVE is not what you mean to do. It’s really simple Ed. Paul wasn’t saved until he was baptized, not when he “believed.” Yet the Bible says belief is what saves you. Hence, you must redefine belief. I have already shown you how, through Scripture, in my recent posts above. God be with you. ****

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Maryrev12
When Jesus was baptised- did not the Holy Ghost descend upon him?

Hi maryrev12, There are too many of you responding to Nathan’s and my debate and I can only respond to one at a time, But I’ll ask you one question, when Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit came upon him is that why in baptism the water becomes Holy? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

QUOTE=Nathan Wagar;5868562]"Hi Nathan, To summarize our debate and in reference to post 475, I say that the Holy Spirit is given upon the BELIEF in Jesus and I have supplied the exact Scripture that says so Eph.1:3, And you also were included in Christ when you HEARD the word of truth, the GOSPEL of YOUR SALVATION. Having, BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a Seal, the promised HOLY SPIRIT

You say per Acts 9:17-19 and Acts 22:12-16 which is a repeat of the former, that Saul/Paul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, NOT the moment of belief and he did NOT receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized.

Your statement would then contradicts Eph 1:3 above. Would you please explain that to me. As short as possible. ED O."

RESPONSE: Ed, you are saying that my statement contradicts Ephesians 1:3. What I said was an exact quote from Scripture. Either you have to admit that Scripture contradicts itself, or your interpetation is wrong. Paul believed. He wasn’t saved. Paul got baptized, Paul was saved. Now you have to honestly look back at your interpretation of what constitutes belief, and see if you can truly say that it stands this test. The simple answer is, it doesn’t. This is a truly priceless example of fitting your own theology into the text, at the risk of denying the Bible, which I am POSITIVE is not what you mean to do. It’s really simple Ed. Paul wasn’t saved until he was baptized, not when he “believed.” Yet the Bible says belief is what saves you. Hence, you must redefine belief. I have already shown you how, through Scripture, in my recent posts above. God be with you.

Nathan this is what you said on post 475: in referance to the above Scriptures, “The above make it clear that Saul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, not the moment of belief. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized, which just so happens to be when his sins were forgiven. This is what infusion means. If your belief is true, Ed, he would have been saved long before, because he had direct revelation from Jesus, and thus his belief would have saved him already.” ----My response, what is the criteria given in the Bible for the forgiveness of sins? ED O.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Your response, based off of some passages, is belief, Ed. What I am asking you to realize is that based off of simply this passage in Acts, you necessarily must redefine what the Biblical definition of belief actually is. I showed you how it is best understood as obedience, in light of all the relevant verses. This passage in Acts merely bears this out, and strengthens my position. What you are essentially trying to do is say that Paul was not saved by baptism, but by YOUR definition of belief. I am saying that Paul was saved by belief, but MY definition of belief. The Scripture itself is its own proof on this matter. If we accept your definition of belief, then Paul should already have been saved. However, Acts is quite clear that he was not, until he was baptized. If someone takes your position, Ed, then Ephesians 1:3 contradicts the rest of the Bible. However, if you change your definition of what constitutes belief, there is no contradiction.

I cannot conclude that your position is tenable, and this is without relying on the vast supply of other Scripture, cultural and patristic witness on the matter. Your interpretation of belief makes Scripture contradict itself. You have to change that first before we can continue. This passage in Acts is very simple proof, Ed. I don’t really need to go further until you concede this point.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Narhan
Your response, based off of some passages, is belief, Ed. What I am asking you to realize is that based off of simply this passage in Acts, you necessarily must redefine what the Biblical definition of belief actually is. I showed you how it is best understood as obedience, in light of all the relevant verses. This passage in Acts merely bears this out, and strengthens my position. What you are essentially trying to do is say that Paul was not saved by baptism, but by YOUR definition of belief. I am saying that Paul was saved by belief, but MY definition of belief. The Scripture itself is its own proof on this matter. If we accept your definition of belief, then Paul should already have been saved. However, Acts is quite clear that he was not, until he was baptized. If someone takes your position, Ed, then Ephesians 1:3 contradicts the rest of the Bible. However, if you change your definition of what constitutes belief, there is no contradiction.

I cannot conclude that your position is tenable, and this is without relying on the vast supply of other Scripture, cultural and patristic witness on the matter. Your interpretation of belief makes Scripture contradict itself. You have to change that first before we can continue. This passage in Acts is very simple proof, Ed. I don’t really need to go further until you concede this point

You say in Acts, “It’s quite clear that he was not (saved), until he was baptized”. That’s your interpretation it does not say when he got saved.------- I’m getting to my point, if you would please give me the criteria for the forgiveness of sins. You mentioned it along with belief in that same Scripture. So I ask you again what is the Biblical criteria for the forgiveness of sins? ED O.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

**Acts 2:38: Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now instead of imposing your beliefs on the above, let’s look at it in light of the passage in Acts. Paul (Saul) already believed. Yet he had to arise and be baptized, washing away his sins. This is a baptism bestowed on him by Ananias.

I am not attempting to read my theology into this, the passage in Acts says it for me. Paul already believes. Ananias lays hands on him. Then he says to arise and be baptized to wash away his sins. Paul is baptized. You may be tempted to say “by the Holy Spirit,” but by your interpretation Paul should have already been baptized by the Spirit at the moment of belief. He was not. Because there are only two types of baptism we can agree on here, either Ananias means arise and be baptized by the Spirit, which does not come at the moment of belief (so when does it come?), or he means water baptism through which the Spirit comes. You can easily see which makes more sense, from these passages alone. Either the Holy Spirit comes at the moment of belief, which this passage says it did not, or it comes at water baptism. Since his sins were forgiven at baptism, it must be the latter.**

“that he was not (saved), until he was baptized”. That’s your interpretation it does not say when he got saved" Response: If his sins were not washed away, then he was not saved. If he hadn’t received the Holy Spirit yet, then he wasn’t saved. We can all agree on that, so that is not merely my interpretation, it is the interpretation of all Catholics and Protestants everywhere. This argument is irrelevant.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Nathan
Acts 2:38: Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now instead of imposing your beliefs on the above, let’s look at it in light of the passage in Acts. Paul (Saul) already believed. Yet he had to arise and be baptized, washing away his sins. This is a baptism bestowed on him by Ananias.

I am not attempting to read my theology into this, the passage in Acts says it for me. Paul already believes. Ananias lays hands on him. Then he says to arise and be baptized to wash away his sins. Paul is baptized. You may be tempted to say “by the Holy Spirit,” but by your interpretation Paul should have already been baptized by the Spirit at the moment of belief. He was not. Because there are only two types of baptism we can agree on here, either Ananias means arise and be baptized by the Spirit, which does not come at the moment of belief (so when does it come?), or he means water baptism through which the Spirit comes. You can easily see which makes more sense, from these passages alone. Either the Holy Spirit comes at the moment of belief, which this passage says it did not, or it comes at water baptism. Since his sins were forgiven at baptism, it must be the latter.

So what you are saying that water baptism washed away Paul’s sins. Is that correct? Would you respond Yes! or No ! ED O.