"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[Nathan_Wagar]

Yes Ed. Because it is what allows us to take part in Christ’s death, as Paul already said. You can’t ignore Scripture for the sake of your interpretation. It clearly says Ananias was baptized for the forgiveness of sins. We both believe he was saved by his belief. We both believe that the cross and the blood is what atones. The difference is, the Biblical position is that the water baptism in his name is what applies the merits of that blood, not mere “belief” AS YOU DEFINE IT. You seem to have the idea we believe in magical Holy Spirit water that saves in and of itself, apart from the atoning of the blood of the cross. This isn’t my contention at all, Ed. The blood it is what saves, but the baptism is what makes you a partaker in that death, as Paul clearly stated. You are misdefining “belief” as well as ignoring the explicit connection between baptism and Christ’s death. You are essentially arguing with a straw man of your own creation.

My question to you: When did Paul believe?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Nathan
Yes Ed. Because it is what allows us to take part in Christ’s death, as Paul already said. You can’t ignore Scripture for the sake of your interpretation. It clearly says Ananias was baptized for the forgiveness of sins. We both believe he was saved by his belief. We both believe that the cross and the blood is what atones. The difference is, the Biblical position is that the water baptism in his name is what applies the merits of that blood, not mere “belief” AS YOU DEFINE IT. You seem to have the idea we believe in magical Holy Spirit water that saves in and of itself, apart from the atoning of the blood of the cross. This isn’t my contention at all, Ed. The blood it is what saves, but the baptism is what makes you a partaker in that death, as Paul clearly stated. You are misdefining “belief” as well as ignoring the explicit connection between baptism and Christ’s death. You are essentially arguing with a straw man of your own creation.

My question to you: When did Paul believe?

Nathan I asked you a simple question and you come back with all of your OWN interpretations and never answering my direct question. First I’ll be a gentleman and answer your question. Paul believed, when He called Jesus “Lord” (capital letter) and then did what he was told to do. You have an Error above, you mean Paul was baptized for the forgiveness of sins not Ananias. Here’s where you want to go around the wheel again. I asked you many times to show me the Scripture that specifically states that the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism, you couldn’t because there is none. Now you say that baptism applies the merits of Jesus Blood. Do you know what? There is no Scripture that says that. The partaking in Jesus’ death is what Rom 6:4 means “repentance”, We die to our old life and raised to a new life. Where did you ever get the idea that I believe baptism means some magical Holy water? To that I say, “You must have had a good dream last night”. You see! we get nowhere because instead making it simple you keep talking too much. I then have to respond to your nonsense. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Nathan .
I am not attempting to read my theology into this, the passage in Acts says it for me. Paul already believes. Ananias lays hands on him. Then he says to arise and be baptized to wash away his sins.

What Bible are you reading? I read Act 9:17-18, And nowhere does Ananias tell Paul that his sins will be washed away. I’ll quote it for you, “Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, He said, “ Brother Saul, the Lord-- Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’ v 18, Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, v19, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.----- It does not say anything about washing your sins away. ED O.

 

[maryrev12]

Hi maryrev12, There are too many of you responding to Nathan’s and my debate and I can only respond to one at a time, But I’ll ask you one question, when Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit came upon him is that why in baptism the water becomes Holy? ED O.

if you wouldn’t mind please to share what type of Christian you are with me? By giving me your denomination it will help to understand your perspective. I used to dislike it when I was asked that- when I was not Catholic- in some cases I would refuse to answer because we are supposed to be of one mind- one body within Christ. I disliked admitting that we as Christians were not one … so I hid from it.However it is imperative in order to understand you. Are you your own advisor or do you submit to some sort of authority?

In Him
mary

 

[SteveGC]

Nathan I asked you a simple question and you come back with all of your OWN interpretations and never answering my direct question.

I think you missed the first two words of his post, Ed. He said, “yes, Ed”. He answered your question, and then simply expanded upon his answer to you (post 498).

What Bible are you reading? I read Act 9:17-18, And nowhere does Ananias tell Paul that his sins will be washed away.

Nathan is looking, I think, at Acts 22…wherein Paul is recounting his encounter with Ananias, and where this recountenance reveals that Ananias told him to “get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name”.

 

[ryanoneil]

Now you say that baptism applies the merits of Jesus Blood. Do you know what? There is no Scripture that says that. The partaking in Jesus’ death is what Rom 6:4 means “repentance”, We die to our old life and raised to a new life.

You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Col 2:12)

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by ryanoneil
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Col 2:12

Col 2:12 is a repeat of what I mentioned Rom 6:4 ED O.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Ed you know I posted Acts 22 and Acts 9 together. That’s exactly what it says. The two passages clarify the same event. There is no way you can argue yourself out of the fact that Paul was saved when he was baptized, not when he believed.

 

[zach_dunn]

MariaG, I apologize that I misunderstood your post. I thought you ment that you went back and read Nathan’s posts. However; I asked you too, to give me the Scripture that indicates that the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism, wouldn’t it be simply easier to do that than to write all of this? E D O.

John 3:5; Acts 2:38 and all of the accounts of Jesus’ Baptism.

 

[geometer]

John 3:5; Acts 2:38 and all of the accounts of Jesus’ Baptism.

“Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism”,

What does infusion mean? Who invented the term? It is not found in the scripture…

Infusion

It is an old alchemical process, according to the above link. Its a bit New Age, isn’t it?

 

[zach_dunn]

“Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism”,

What does infusion mean? Who invented the term? It is not found in the scripture…

Oh my gosh, when will Protestants learn that the terminology is not what matters, it’s the CONCEPT. The word Trinity is not in the Bible, the word Bible is not in the Bible, but those concepts are found there and that’s what’s important. Please understand this so you don’t make this mistake again.

When we say the Holy Spirit is “infused” we mean the Holy Spirit permeates through our souls which is what infused means.

John 3:5
“5 Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’”

The Spirit is infused at baptism.

Acts 2:38
“38 And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

The Holy Spirit is infused at baptism.

Matthew 3:16
“16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him.”

Mark 1:10
“10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove.”

Luke 3:21-22
“21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, ‘Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.’”

The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus and remained with Him as soon as He was baptized, and that’s what happens with us.

 

[zach_dunn]

Infusion

It is an old alchemical process, according to the above link. Its a bit New Age, isn’t it?

The first use of this “infusion” was in the 10th century, regenerative baptism has been believed since Jesus taught it to the Apostles who taught it to the world.

How about you stick with the definition of infusion since that is what we’re talking about.

 

[4everjustjesus]

He is only offered as an example in the parable to demonstrate what is “a neighbor,” with the obvious answer that it is anyone in need.

Not by my understanding, the man asked Yeshua (pbwh) what must i do, get baptised was not the answer.

The man did not ask " what must i do?" but “who is my neighbor?”

BIG difference

look into it

correct me if I’m wrong

 

[geometer]

The first use of this “infusion” was in the 10th century, regenerative baptism has been believed since Jesus taught it to the Apostles who taught it to the world.

How about you stick with the definition of infusion since that is what we’re talking about.

(b) Proximate matter

The proximate matter of baptism is the ablution performed with water. The very word “baptize”, as we have seen, means a washing.

Three forms of ablution have prevailed among Christians, and the Church holds them all to be valid because they fulfill the requisite signification of the baptismal laving. These forms are immersion, infusion, and aspersion.

The most ancient form usually employed was unquestionably immersion.

 

[chrisb]

There you go…

Why is anyone a christian???

Culturation. We are taught.

 

[geometer]

Culturation. We are taught.

It seems so…

 

[zach_dunn]

There you go…

Why is anyone a christian???

Because we are followers of Christ which is why we are Christian. Take a look at Acts 11:26.

 

[zach_dunn]

(b) Proximate matter

The proximate matter of baptism is the ablution performed with water. The very word “baptize”, as we have seen, means a washing.

Three forms of ablution have prevailed among Christians, and the Church holds them all to be valid because they fulfill the requisite signification of the baptismal laving. These forms are immersion, infusion, and aspersion.

The most ancient form usually employed was unquestionably immersion.

By infusion here do you mean pouring? That’s a name for the type of baptism, that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit isn’t infused in our soul during baptism, your point is moot.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hi Nathan, I apologize to you. Steve, brought to my attention that you did answer “yes” to my question on post 498. But the “yes” answer was is wrong read as follows:

This is what you have posted on 496

I am not attempting to read my theology into this, the passage in Acts says it for me. Paul already believes. Ananias lays hands on him. Then he says to arise and be baptized to wash away his sins. ----MY RESPONSE: You are referring to Acts 22:16

Paul is baptized. You may be tempted to say “by the Holy Spirit,” but by your interpretation Paul should have already been baptized by the Spirit at the moment of belief. He was not.

MY RESPONSE: Eph 1:3, “ In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This Scripture very clearly says, SEALED by the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief. We know that Paul spoke in tongues, from where did he get that baptism? When Ananias laid hands on him.
Your problem is you don’t differentiate between sealed and baptism. Prior to Pentecost all the apostles were sealed by the Holy Spirit when they believed, they then received the Power (Acts 1:8) of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Because there are only two types of baptism we can agree on here,

MY RESPONSE: Yes two baptisms ( 1 ) Water baptism for repentance, ( 2 ) Baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands. The POWER that Jesus spoke of in Acts 1:8. This baptism power was then passed on by the laying of hands and the people spoke in tongues. Per Acts 8:17 & Acts 19:6

either Ananias means arise and be baptized by the Spirit, which does not come at the moment of belief (so when does it come?), or he means water baptism through which the Spirit comes.

MY RESPONSE: I’ve asked you repeatedly, show me the Scripture where the Spirit comes through water baptism and you have not, because there’s is no such Scripture.

You can easily see which makes more sense, from these passages alone. Either the Holy Spirit comes at the moment of belief, which this passage says it did not, or it comes at water baptism.

MY RESPONSE: You completely ignore my third response above Eph 1:3 It’s not about making more sense, it’s has to be verified by Scripture which Eph 1:3 above does. You are implying that the Holy Spirit comes by water baptism but have no Scripture proof.

Since his sins were forgiven at baptism, it must be the latter.

MY RESPONSE: Nowhere in the Bible does it say that sins are forgiven by water baptism. There’s always words added to it. In this particular case you very conveniently omit that the sins are washed away BY CALLING OF HIS NAME. It’s the calling upon Jesus’ name that washes away the sins. Joel 2:32, “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Rom 10:13, “Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” We are saved by his name not by water baptism. Back to Eph 1:3. Above read it and believe it. If baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit, it then becomes works something we must do, which violates Eph 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God. V 9 Not by works, so that no one can boast.” Now I’m showing you Scripture proof and you show me what you think that makes sense. ED O.

 

[geometer]

By infusion here do you mean pouring? That’s a name for the type of baptism, that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit isn’t infused in our soul during baptism, your point is moot.

That infusion means more than pouring is moot. The first baptisms were not infusions, they were immersions, and later there were aspersions…

---

By the way, do you know on what occasion Albert Einstein said that, and who he was responding to?