I thought that was your concern.
I suggested it may be your concern in my untidy post #161
have been enjoying your discussion with Nathan.
You guys obviously don’t have young kids, to be able to spend this much time on this
Hi panevino, In John 3:5 “man born of water” refers to man’s physical birth. That’s why Jesus in v 6 refers back to v5 Flesh gives birth to flesh (physical birth) but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. Just because the word water is mentioned there does not mean baptism. Nathan claims that we are saved, our sins are forgiven and we receive the Holy Spirit by water baptism. That can’t be true and here’s why,
The criteria, SET by GOD, for the forgiveness of sins for “ALL” mankind is twofold. RULE ( 1 ) Sin caused man to die but God in the O.T., allows a substitute, animals died in man’s place. In the N.T. the same theme carries through, Lamb/Jesus died in man’s place.
RULE ( 2 ) ONLY blood can forgive and atone for sins. Here’s why! God says in the O.T. Lev 17:11, “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that make atonement for one’s life.” and the same theme in the N.T. Mat 26:28, Jesus states, “This is my Blood of the new covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
Why ONLY Blood? Leviticus above states, Life is in the blood, so If we want life, it’s the Blood that gives it to us. In the O.T. it was animal’s blood, in the N.T. it’s Jesus’ Blood that gives us life eternal. That’s why when Adam/ Eve covered themselves with leaves, God had to recover them with animal’s skins, Animals, substitute, died in their place, and the blood restored them to life.
The first book in the N.T. Mat 26:28 Jesus states, He gives us His Blood for the forgiveness of sins, somewhere past the middle of the N.T. Heb 9:22, states, “Without the shedding of Blood there is NO forgiveness of sins” and in the last book of the Bible Rev 1:5, states, “To Him (Jesus) who loves us and freed us from our sins by His BLOOD.”
Does water baptism forgives sins ? NO! If it did, then Jesus died in VAIN. What does it then do? It does exactly what John Mat 3:11, says it does, that is, to show our repentance, turning to God, an example of that is per Mat 3:7-8, when John wouldn’t baptized the Pharisees/Sadducees v 8, he said, “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” (show your turning to God)
Rom 6:4, states about baptism, “We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” We die to our old life and begin a new repentant life. Col 2:12 states the same.
Can water baptism forgive sins? NO! WHY? ----- RULE ( 1 ) Because there has to be a substitute to die in man’s place. ----- RULE ( 2 ) There has to be blood to give life. Water baptism cannot do either, God made the RULES for ALL mankind. The people in the O.T. had original sin too! Were they baptized ? NO! They were circumcised and related to the community, as we are baptized to enter the community of the church. It’s only a righteous act, exactly like Jesus says it is Mat 3:15.
Is the Holy Spirit received by water baptism? NO! ( a ) There’s no Scripture that supports that claim. ( b ) Acts 8:12 The people believed the gospel and were baptized. Did they received the Holy Spirit? NO! v16 very clearly states, “because the Holy Spirit had NOT yet come upon any of them. That’s proof that the Holy Spirit does not come by water baptism. Acts 19:2-6, Paul very clearly states that the Holy Spirit does not come by John’s water baptism. He states it’s a baptism of repentance. When he prayed and laid hands on them, they then received the Holy Spirit.
Think about this: At the Lord’s supper Jesus said,“This is my BlOOD of the new covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” He said NOTHING about water baptism going to forgive sins. ED O.
