"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[panevino]

Perhaps those who wish to discuss glosslalia in more depth should strart a new thread so we can stay on topic here. I think someone was claiming Catholics reject John 3?

Think we are done now.
Back to water baptism

 

[benedictus2]

Hi panevino, allow me to explain Acts 19:2-6, these are NOT two seperate actions. ( 1 )There’s no water mentioned here. ( 2 ) starting at v5, “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” ( 3 ) Paul simply did that act in Jesus’ name.

Baptism in Paul’s time is baptism by water.

So as I asked before, why did Paul baptise them for A SECOND TIME after they told Paul that they have already been baptized by John? What was the second baptism for? If all that is necessary is to be baptized by the Spirit (which you are saying comes with the laying on of hands) why did Paul not just go straight into the laying on of hands?

Also, why did Jesus Christ Himself give that grand commission to baptise everyone in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

Note: That was Jesus giving that command. Why did Jesus do that?

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan, you state that you haven’t received the gift of tongues. I have two questions ( 1 ) In all the years that you have been a Catholic, have you ever known anyone who has been confirmed that could speak in tongues? Priests and Nuns included? ( 2 ) Is Jesus kidding when He states in Mark 16:17, “And these signs will accompany those who BELIEVE: In My name they will drive out demons, they will speak in new tongues----?” What is your response? ED O.

P.S. From where did you get the information that Ananias was a Bishop in Damascus?

1. Yes I know people who speak in tongues.
2. Jesus is not kidding. That doesn’t mean every person will have every gift. Including these. . .

They will pick up serpents (with their hands), and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mark 16:18)

The info about Ananias is Church tradition and it in the Cathlolic encyclopedia. Do a google search.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

(1 Cor 8-10) The house of the Corinthians was in chaos caused by spiritual manifestations. Spiritual manifestations occur in all religions.Spiritual manifestations are not all of God.
Christ told us that works of power in themselves, even those done in His name, are not trustworthy evidence of spiritual genuineness (Mt 7:15, 20-23)

 

[panevino]

Posted by panevino
Ed,
what is ur understanding of acts 19:3-6
why did they need to be baptized in name of Jesus after it was discovered that they were baptized by John.
And then they also had laying of hands

Paul already explained it in v 4. He said John’s “water” baptism was a baptism of REPENTANCE. He wanted them to receive the Holy Spirit so He then laid hands on them and they received. That’s what I’ve been saying all the time, John “water” baptism does NOT bring on the Holy Spirit. Paul says it twice, John and Jesus both say the same . ED O.

Ed, please dont think i’m ingoring your questions about HS etc… i’m getting there and i have been flat out with work and life. but regarding above I thought I’d extract a bit more of Acts 19 from KJV

Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

So - correct me if i’m wrong but u believe that beyond johns water baptism , christian baptism occurs without water and is in fact the exact moment that they ‘heard this’/believed and then after that to actually get the HS/gifts they had to submit (for lack of better word) to the laying of hands by Paul.

is that correct (ie: born of … spirit - found in jn 3:5)

can you clarify if christian baptism to u is the exact moment of belief shown in above verse OR is it complete when HS came on them after the ‘laying of hands’.

for what its worth both declaration of belief & ‘laying of hands’ occurs at a catholic confirmation ceremony. something along the lines of the following

sacrament of Confirmation

the following is an extract of the CCC

1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation **begins with the renewal of baptismal promises **and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

1299 In the Roman Rite the bishop extends his hands over the whole group of the confirmands. Since the time of the apostles this gesture has signified the gift of the Spirit. The bishop invokes the outpouring of the Spirit in these words:

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by water and the Holy Spirit
you freed your sons and daughters from sin
and gave them new life.
Send your Holy Spirit upon them
to be their helper and guide.
Give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of right judgment and courage,
the spirit of knowledge and reverence.
Fill them with the spirit of wonder and awe in your presence.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.113

Baptismal promises repeated at confirmation
(this was a little difficult to find - found it at presentationministries.co…entRenewal.asp

baptismal promises.
Celebrant: Do you reject Satan?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: And all his works?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: And all his empty promises?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
Response: I do.

Okay on top of this the CCC
states in section 1128 & 1131 that the fruits of the sacraments depend on the disposition of the recipient.

Ed, but assuming your interpretation of christian baptism is belief alone OR belief/declaration OR belief/declaration/laying of hands
then is it not pretty well covered in what I have listed above in confirmation.

putting aside water in baptism and when/if HS acts in it for a moment - do you find any sort of validity in the above description of confirmation when laid against your interpretation of christian baptism?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

the following is an extract of the CCC

1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation **begins with the renewal of baptismal promises **and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

The “laying on of hands” in confirmation is considered in the Catholic Church to be a completion of the grace of baptism (*2 Vatican Council, Decree on the missionary activity of the Church, VI 36)*By the 2nd century the sacrament of confirmation appeared as a separate rite. By the 4th century this was general practice.
​

​

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
So - correct me if i’m wrong but u believe that beyond johns water baptism , christian baptism occurs without water and is in fact the exact moment that they ‘heard this’/believed and then after that to actually get the HS/gifts they had to submit (for lack of better word) to the laying of hands by Paul.

is that correct (ie: born of … spirit - found in jn 3:5)
can you clarify if christian baptism to u is the exact moment of belief shown in above verse OR is it complete when HS came on them after the ‘laying of hands’
for what its worth both declaration of belief & ‘laying of hands’ occurs at a catholic confirmation ceremony. something along the lines of the following

Hi Panevino, I don’t think we will ever agree because I believe that “water” baptism is a baptism of repentance while you believe that in “water” baptism one becomes born again and receives the Holy Spirit per John 3:5. I believe what Jesus said in Acts 1:5, “John baptized you with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Jesus differentiates the two baptisms.------In John 14:15-21Jesus promises the Holy Spirit. v17 “the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him,. But you know him, for he lives WITH you and will be IN you.”----- If, as you say, one is born again and recieves the Holy Spirit at “water” baptism, why then is confirmation necessary? ------What does this verse mean to you Luke 11:13, " If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" ED. O.

]

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

For a Catholic perspective an interesting book to read (also available on internet). Commissioned by Pope Urban IV from St Thomas Aquinas. It’s a collection of the thoughts of the Church Fathers on the verses of Scripture.
Catena Aurea.

 

[panevino]

Hi Panevino, I don’t think we will ever agree because I believe that “water” baptism is a baptism of repentance while you believe that in “water” baptism one becomes born again and receives the Holy Spirit per John 3:5. I believe what Jesus said in Acts 1:5, “John baptized you with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Jesus differentiates the two baptisms.------In John 14:15-21Jesus promises the Holy Spirit. v17 “the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him,. But you know him, for he lives WITH you and will be IN you.”----- If, as you say, one is born again and recieves the Holy Spirit at “water” baptism, why then is confirmation necessary? ------What does this verse mean to you Luke 11:13, " If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" ED. O.

]

Hey Ed - good to see you back.
i am still thinking…
in the meantime can you give me your thoughts on the following

putting aside water in baptism and when/if HS acts in it for a moment - do you find any sort of validity in the above description of confirmation when laid against your interpretation of christian baptism?

i may not of worded that questions well - what i am trying to ask is -ignoring catholic water baptism for a minute - do you recognise any validity to ‘born of spirit’ in my information about what is said/done during confirmation? (assuming recipient truly believes of course)

thanks

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Panevino, I don’t think we will ever agree because I believe that “water” baptism is a baptism of repentance while you believe that in “water” baptism one becomes born again

John’s 'water" baptism is indeed a baptism of repentance. But what about the second baptism that Paul performed before the laying on of hands. This is also water baptism, for baptism in those times precisely meant that, immersion or dipping in water.

What was that for?

Also what was Jesus command to baptise in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for. That is no longer John’s baptism so no longer what you would call a baptism of repentance. So what does that baptism mean?

 

[panevino]

John’s 'water" baptism is indeed a baptism of repentance. But what about the second baptism that Paul performed before the laying on of hands. This is also water baptism, for baptism in those times precisely meant that, immersion or dipping in water.

What was that for?

Also what was Jesus command to baptise in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for. That is no longer John’s baptism so no longer what you would call a baptism of repentance. So what does that baptism mean?

Ed believes that water baptism in christianity only refelcts the effects of Johns baptism (ie: sign of repentance)
he believes that a 2nd baptism is called for and it is the essential one and it excludes water (born of … spirit john 3:5) which is brought about by true belief (not sure if he thinks it also requires declration and laying of hands) and during this 2nd baptism the HS comes over us/gifts. (much like confirmation in catholic church)

hi Ed came across this verse today - Rev 22:1 KJV And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb

 

[EdOsiecki]

P

Posted by Panevino
sacrament of Confirmation

the following is an extract of the CCC

1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation **begins with the renewal of baptismal promises **and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

1299 In the Roman Rite the bishop extends his hands over the whole group of the confirmands. Since the time of the apostles this gesture has signified the gift of the Spirit. The bishop invokes the outpouring of the Spirit in these words:

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by water and the Holy Spirit
you freed your sons and daughters from sin
and gave them new life.
Send your Holy Spirit upon them
to be their helper and guide.
Give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of right judgment and courage,
the spirit of knowledge and reverence.
Fill them with the spirit of wonder and awe in your presence.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.113

Baptismal promises repeated at confirmation
(this was a little difficult to find - found it at presentationministries.co…entRenewal.asp

baptismal promises.
Celebrant: Do you reject Satan?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: And all his works?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: And all his empty promises?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Response: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
Response: I do.

Okay on top of this the CCC
states in section 1128 & 1131 that the fruits of the sacraments depend on the disposition of the recipient.

Ed, but assuming your interpretation of christian baptism is belief alone OR belief/declaration OR belief/declaration/laying of hands
then is it not pretty well covered in what I have listed above in confirmation.

putting aside water in baptism and when/if HS acts in it for a moment - do you find any sort of validity in the above description of confirmation when laid against your interpretation of christian baptism ?

Hi panevino, Jesus said in Luke 11:13, " If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Does Jesus require all of the above? NO! ------ Did Paul asked the disciples in Acts 19:2, all of the above? NO! One gets saved by simply believing in Jesus’ gospel. We also received the baptism in the Holy Spirit simply by faith when we ask for Him. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Panevino
Ed believes that water baptism in christianity only refelcts the effects of Johns baptism (ie: sign of repentance)
he believes that a 2nd baptism is called for and it is the essential one and it excludes water (born of … spirit john 3:5) which is brought about by true belief (not sure if he thinks it also requires declration and laying of hands) and during this 2nd baptism the HS comes over us/gifts. (much like confirmation in catholic church)

hi Ed came across this verse today - Rev 22:1 KJV And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb

Hi Panevino,in reference to your first paragrah, This is what I believe in order to be saved. It’s called the sinner’s prayer per Scripture! ( 1 ) Rom 3:23, We acknowledge that we have sinned (and ask God’s forgiveness.) ( 2 ) Rom 2:23, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life throught Jesus Christ our Lord. ( 3 ) Rom 10:13, Anyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved ( we have to ask God to come into our life). ( 4 ) For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord and believe in your own heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, v10 For it is by believing in his heart that a man becomes right with God; and with his mouth he tells others of his faith, confirming his salvation. PLEASE NOTE! It’s the changing of one’s heart that changes his spirit. This is where Eph 1:13 comes into play. That is I’m sealed with promise of the Holy Spirit. And now per John 1:12, I’m a child of God. Should I desire the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the elders in the church who are Spirit filled can lay hands on me and pray that I also shall receive the Holy Spirit. When we are prayed over we must believe ( by faith) that we have indeed recieved the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.---- PLEASE NOTE! not even a single drop of water has been mentioned thus far. As I continue my walk in faith, I’ll get water baptized to show my repentance and to obey what Jesus commanded per Mat 28:19.

Concerning the Rev 22:1 that you speak of, I hope just because it states river and water that you don’t automatically think that it means “water” baptism ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Benedictus
John’s 'water" baptism is indeed a baptism of repentance. But what about the second baptism that Paul performed before the laying on of hands. This is also water baptism, for baptism in those times precisely meant that, immersion or dipping in water.

What was that for ?Benedictus,read Acts 19:5-6 again. First of all there’s no water mentioned here to be baptized . Second, there’s NOT two baptisms taking place here.

Also what was Jesus command to baptise in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for. That is no longer John’s baptism so no longer what you would call a baptism of repentance. So what does that baptism mean ? Twice Paul calls John’s baptism of repentance Acts 13:24 & 19:4. Jesus in Acts 1:5 prior to ascending to heaven calls John baptism “water” ED O.

 

[panevino]

Hi panevino, Jesus said in Luke 11:13, " If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Does Jesus require all of the above? NO! ------ Did Paul asked the disciples in Acts 19:2, all of the above? NO! One gets saved by simply believing in Jesus’ gospel. We also received the baptism in the Holy Spirit simply by faith when we ask for Him. ED O.

Hi Panevino,in reference to your first paragrah, This is what I believe in order to be saved. It’s called the sinner’s prayer per Scripture! ( 1 ) Rom 3:23, We acknowledge that we have sinned (and ask God’s forgiveness.) ( 2 ) Rom 2:23, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life throught Jesus Christ our Lord. ( 3 ) Rom 10:13, Anyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved ( we have to ask God to come into our life). ( 4 ) For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord and believe in your own heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, v10 For it is by believing in his heart that a man becomes right with God; and with his mouth he tells others of his faith, confirming his salvation. PLEASE NOTE! It’s the changing of one’s heart that changes his spirit. This is where Eph 1:13 comes into play. That is I’m sealed with promise of the Holy Spirit. And now per John 1:12, I’m a child of God. Should I desire the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the elders in the church who are Spirit filled can lay hands on me and pray that I also shall receive the Holy Spirit. When we are prayed over we must believe ( by faith) that we have indeed recieved the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.---- PLEASE NOTE! not even a single drop of water has been mentioned thus far. As I continue my walk in faith, I’ll get water baptized to show my repentance and to obey what Jesus commanded per Mat 28:19…

is this the sinners prayer

Heavenly Father, I know that I have sinned against you and that my sins separate me from you. I am truly sorry. I now want to turn away from my sinful past and turn to you for forgiveness. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your Son, Jesus Christ, died for my sins, that He was raised from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become my Savior and the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You and to convict me when I sin. I pledge to grow in grace and knowledge of you. My greatest purpose in life is to follow your example and do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.[2]

I got to say i dont have any problems with the prayer. im no expert though on the details - but it looks grreat
and you should know by now that I fully agree that belief is needed for fruits.

so your question to me in ref to the words said at confirmation was -

Does Jesus require all of the above? NO! ------ Did Paul asked the disciples in Acts 19:2, all of the above? NO! One gets saved by simply believing in Jesus’ gospel.

so why do you bother with the sinners prayer? and the laying of hands?

would you wihtold act of sinners prayer and laying of hands from a family member knowing that belief alone will cover it.

i assume answer is no - because jesus said to use your mouth and their is the example of laying of hands for the gifts.

.

Concerning the Rev 22:1 that you speak of, I hope just because it states river and water that you don’t automatically think that it means “water” baptism ED O.

sorry ed - cant resist
born of water and spirit
moses means ‘drew from water’
peter says 8 saved by water - which prefigures baptism that now saves
blood/water from jesus side
‘water of life’ Rev 22
water from rock in desert
holy water verse in OT used by priest
eunuch/phillip baptised in a river following belief in jesus
paul/john distinguish christian/johns baptism
jesus is baptised by john in water and then HS descends
aaron/sons washed in water in concecration for preisthood lev 8:6
ex 30:20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
john 13:4-10 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

‘The soul becomes God from God through participation in Him and in His attributes’ (St John of the Cross).

The sinner’s prayer is nothing if it does not come from righteous intention.
Baptism is washing not spiritual cleansing if it fails to come by way of grace (Jude 4)

 

[EdOsiecki]

Benedictus 2, I didn’t respond to your post 835, so I’ll do some of it in this manner:

QUOTE BY Ed Osiecki
It started with Adam & Eve. Rom 5:12,” When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. His sin spread death throughout all the world, so everything began to grow old and die. As a result, God had a substitutionary plan in mind in order to rescue the human race. This is how He did it. Leviticus 17:11, states, “For the life of a creature is in the Blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the Blood that makes atonement for one’s life.” To make it simple to understand, God’s salvation plan for ALL mankind is twofold. ( 1 ) Substitutionary death. In the O. T. instead of people dying for their sins, animals were substituted.

RESPONSE BY BENEDICTUS 2
Are you telling me that the people in the OT (Abraham, Moses, etc) were saved from their sins by the blood of the animals they sacrificed?
If they were already saved from their sin (which of course meant death) then why were they still waiting for the messiah when the animal blood was working just fine?
Please answer that.

ED’S RESPONSE: This is elementary O. T. Bible knowledge: read Leviticus chapter 4. It tells all about the law for the forgiveness of sins. 4:20. “and do with this bull just as he did with the bull for sin offering, In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.” v31 He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priests shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. In this way the priests will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.” ----Now if you don’t like this response, you’ll have to live with it because this is what Jehovah God established for the Jews for their forgiveness of their sins. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
.
sorry ed - cant resist
born of water and spirit
moses means ‘drew from water’
peter says 8 saved by water - which prefigures baptism that now saves
blood/water from jesus side
‘water of life’ Rev 22
water from rock in desert
holy water verse in OT used by priest
eunuch/phillip baptised in a river following belief in jesus
paul/john distinguish christian/johns baptism
jesus is baptised by john in water and then HS descends
aaron/sons washed in water in concecration for preisthood lev 8:6
ex 30:20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
john 13:4-10 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me

Hi panevino, I thought that you were different than the rest, and that is, everytime the words “water” or anything connected to “water” it automatically means "baptism or “holy”. -------Here’s a few more that you missed, Gen 1:20, Lev 11:9 , Duet 14:9, Jer 2:13 & 17:13, Zec 14:8, Rev 7:17, Rev 8:10 ect, ect… Answer me! John 7:37-38, “if anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. v38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of LIVING WATER will flow from within Him.” Does this mean that a trail of water will be following me where ever I go? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Benedictus2 here’s more of my response to your post 835:

QUOTE BY Ed Osiecki
In the N. T. Jesus died in our place ( 2 ) Blood is used for atonement to forgive sins. In the O. T. animals Blood . In the N. T. Jesus’ Blood used to forgive sins.

RESPONSE BY BENEDICTUS 2
So I re-iterate my question here. Why did God have to become incarnate, die and rise again, if according to you in the OT, the blood of the animal was sufficient for the forgiveness of sins?

Don’t you get it? If the whole point is forgiveness of sins, and the animals sacrifices were working just fine, why then does God have to come? Please answer that.

ED’S RESPONSE: Again elementary Scripture. Heb. 8:7, “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. V8 But God FOUND FAULT with the people and said: ‘ The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant. With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. V9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful t my covenant and I turned away from them declares the Lord, v10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. V11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man, his brother, saying, Know the Lord, because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. V12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” v13 “ By calling this covenant, ‘new’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” ----Again if you don’t like this answer you’ll have to live with it because Jesus changed the method for the forgiveness of sins, not only for the Jews but for us as well. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Benedictus 2 here’s the last of my response to your post 835;

QUOTE BY ED Osiecki
Starting with Adam & Eve, when they sinned they covered themselves with fig leaves. Gen 3:7. God then covered them with animal’s skins Gen. 3:21. WHY? Animals died in their place and blood for atonement. As we continue, Cane brought some fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord, Abel brought fat portions from his flock. God rejected Cane’s offering but accepted Abel’s offering Gen 4:3. WHY? Abel killed an animal/blood.

RESPONSE BY BENEDICTUS 2
In Gen Abel tended flocks, Cain worked the field. When one makes an offering, one is supposed to offer the fruits of their labour, that is why Abel offered his flock and Cain offered the fruits of the soil. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO with appeasement of an angry God.

MY RESPONSE: Again elementary Scripture of the O. T.: By re-clothing Adam & Eve with skins, animals had to be killed and the blood offered, otherwise they could not be saved. Heb 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” -----In the case of Cain and Abel. I did NOT say anything about appeasing an angry God. Through this episode God again is showing that and animal was killed and the blood for atonement of sins, which is a preview of the law that He will establish with Moses.

QUOTE BY ED Osiecki
God continues, in Moses’ time, God established a priestly system where they killed the animals and sprinkled the blood on the altar for the peoples sins. Only once a year was the High Priest allowed to entered a special room separated by a curtain, Holy of Hollies and sprinkled blood for the atonement for his and the peoples sins. He was replaced when he died.

RESPONSE BY BENEDICTUS 2
Okay.

QUOTE BY ED Osiecki
We continue into the N. T. Jesus is our Lamb and His Blood Mat 26:28, Jesus speaks, “This is my Blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain of the temple was torn from top to the bottom, indicating that the animal system expired Mat 27:51.

RESPONSE BY BENEDICTUS2
But the question remains, why did God need to send His Son to die and cause the animal system to “expire” when according to you it was working okay and was doing what it was supposed to do, I.e. enable the forgiveness of sins.

MY RESPONSE; Again elementary Scripture: It’s not according to me that all was working fine, I’m stating Scriptures. My advice to you would be read Heb chapter 8. It’s all explained there. ED O.