"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[Randy_Carson]

You are assuming that the water mentioned here is “baptism” because you were told so. If you had no knowledge of the rite of baptism, how would know that’s what being ment here? There’s nothing here that indicates baptism. ED O.

Ed-

No one is saying that the Blood of Jesus is meaningless.

However, were you literally washed in the Blood of the Lamb? If so, that must have been awfully messy. Do you have photos you can post here? If not, then how was the shedding of Christ’s blood applied to you?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Randy Carson
Ed-

No one is saying that the Blood of Jesus is meaningless.

Hi Randy, neither do I say that “water” baptism is meaningless, it has its purpose. It’s a righteous act of showing God as well as the comminity that we want to turn to God, die to our past life and begin a new Holy life. That’s Repentance! -----What I don’t believe is that by being “water” baptized, one receives the Holy Spirit and it removes original sin and all other sins. There is no Scripture to suport that theology!

However, were you literally washed in the Blood of the Lamb? If so, that must have been awfully messy. Do you have photos you can post here? If not, then how was the shedding of Christ’s blood applied to you?

That’s an elementary question I thought that you would have known that. It’s by faith man, by faith in what Jesus did on the cross! ------ That’s the BELIEF! ------ When you were “water” baptized, did the sins come washing off your body? And remain in the water for them to be attached to someone else who then gets into the water ?

John very clearly said he baptizes in water for repentance and Jesus would baptized in the Holy Spirit. ------ Why is that so hard for you to understand? ----- Rev 1:5 Jesus repeats it by saying John baptized in water (He doesn’t say Holy water) . He goes on to say in a few days they will be baptized in the Holy Spirit. ------ That’s the baptism that John spoke about. ------ If John’s “water” baptism brings on the Holy Spirit, then what is there left for Jesus’ baptism to do?

Which baptism would you rather have, John’s “water” baptism, which there is no Scripture support saying that it brings on the Holy Spirit, or Jesus’ baptism who He and John both say that it does?

We know that there are two baptisms, Jesus, John and Paul say so. Yet, Eph 4:5 states, “one Lord, one faith and ONE baptism” You can bet your life that it’s not John’s “water” baptism. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino

1. Sacramental use of water with faith per Jesus words in John 3:5.

1. St Ambrose wrote this around 370+ so use of the word might in this way may carry a slightly different meaning

Hi panevino, Ambrose states “The power of baptism”. Show me the Scripture that indicates that “water” baptism has any power. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by izoid
Baptism is not our pledge to God, it is His pledge to us. It is the means by which we are initiated into the new covenant.

Hi izoid,what you state here is your own interpretation, what I had posted in quotation marks was exactly what the Bible states. Here I’ll re-post it. 1Peter 3:21, “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also— not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.” When you read it ALL it gives the proper meaning!

COLOR=“red”]This is a silly argument. To imply that Nickodemus did not know of baptism is unfounded. He would have had to be living in isolation not to have seen what was clearly going on around him. I am quite certain that he knew of water baptism.

This is not as silly as you think!----- In verse nine, Nicodemus still doesn’t understand he asks, “How can this be?” ED O.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy, neither do I say that “water” baptism is meaningless, it has its purpose. It’s a righteous act of showing God as well as the comminity that we want to turn to God, die to our past life and begin a new Holy life. That’s Repentance! -----What I don’t believe is that by being “water” baptized, one receives the Holy Spirit and it removes original sin and all other sins. There is no Scripture to suport that theology!

That’s an elementary question I thought that you would have known that. It’s by faith man, by faith in what Jesus did on the cross! ------ That’s the BELIEF! ------ When you were “water” baptized, did the sins come washing off your body? And remain in the water for them to be attached to someone else who then gets into the water ?

John very clearly said he baptizes in water for repentance and Jesus would baptized in the Holy Spirit. ------ Why is that so hard for you to understand? ----- Rev 1:5 Jesus repeats it by saying John baptized in water (He doesn’t say Holy water) . He goes on to say in a few days they will be baptized in the Holy Spirit. ------ That’s the baptism that John spoke about. ------ If John’s “water” baptism brings on the Holy Spirit, then what is there left for Jesus’ baptism to do?

Which baptism would you rather have, John’s “water” baptism, which there is no Scripture support saying that it brings on the Holy Spirit, or Jesus’ baptism who He and John both say that it does?

We know that there are two baptisms, Jesus, John and Paul say so. Yet, Eph 4:5 states, “one Lord, one faith and ONE baptism” You can bet your life that it’s not John’s “water” baptism. ED O.

You have not answered the question.

I was literally washed in the water of baptism, and the grace of that sacrament really did take away my sins. Were you literally washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Also, I wish to ask this question: when were the Apostles filled with the Holy Spirit?

 

[panevino]

Hi panevino, Ambrose states “The power of baptism”. Show me the Scripture that indicates that “water” baptism has any power. ED O.

Kjv John5: 6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) **by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
**

John 3:5

water and blood from Jesus side

 

[panevino]

1pet3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Ed ,
why do u think Peter even mentions water when it was noahs faith that saved him?
why does Peter says the words saved by water?
Why does he link The water of noahs story to baptism that" now saves " when he should of only being refering to belief?

I See the words
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

as afirmation that belief is also required in the water baptism. Ie John 3:5 born of water and spirit.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy, neither do I say that “water” baptism is meaningless, it has its purpose. It’s a righteous act of showing God as well as the comminity that we want to turn to God, die to our past life and begin a new Holy life. That’s Repentance! -----What I don’t believe is that by being “water” baptized, one receives the Holy Spirit and it removes original sin and all other sins. There is no Scripture to suport that theology!

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Yep, the sins came right off.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

That’s two things, not one: 1) washing of rebirth and 2) renewal by the Holy Spirit.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Randy Carson .
I was literally washed in the water of baptism, and the grace of that sacrament really did take away my sins.

Hi Randy, you may have been literally washed, but there’s no such thing as the grace of that Sacrament. It’s the grace of Jesus who forgive our sins not water. Water has no grace, what you state is not in the Bible.

Were you literally washed in the blood of the Lamb?

I never said that I was washed, I said by my belief (faith) in Jesus is what forgave and atoned for my sins. It’s on that basis. In Mat 26:28 Jesus said," This is my blood of the new covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." When He said a new covenant, there must have been an old covenant and it goes like this, Lev.17:11, Jehovah (Father) God speaks, "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life. The Father the 1st person and Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity saying the same thing. It’s the blood that atones for sins.

Here’s what I find on this thread. There are Catholics that have no idea as to what went on in the O.T. concerning the forgiveness sins, if they did, they would know that blood is the only source that forgives and atones for man’s sins. Here’s an example of what I’ve experienced. When I explained to Benedictus2 that in the O.T. it was the animals blood that was used to forgive sins, she replied, “If it worked so well why did Jesus have to come and die.” Doesn’t that tell you something? If Catholics really understood, God’s method of salvation for ALL MANKIND starting with the O.T., and then it continues into the N.T. with Jesus our Lamb’s blood, it wouldn’t matter whether the water in Jh 3:5 means baptism or physical birth they would know it’s only Blood that forgives and atones for sins. Nowhere and I repeat nowhere in the Bible does it say that “water:” baptism atones for sins. ED O.

Also, I wish to ask this question: when were the Apostles filled with the Holy Spirit

I wasn’t there, if you know for certain you tell me. How’s that for an answer? We went over John 20:22 before,so why waste time.ED O

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Randy Carson
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Yep, the sins came right off.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

That’s two things, not one: 1) washing of rebirth and 2) renewal by the Holy Spirit

Hi Randy, you are about 700 posts behind, all what you present was discussed many times over. But I have a question for you. What forgives sins Jesus’ blood or “water” baptism? ED O,

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
1pet3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Ed ,
why do u think Peter even mentions water when it was noahs faith that saved him?
why does Peter says the words saved by water?
Why does he link The water of noahs story to baptism that" now saves " when he should of only being refering to belief?

I See the words
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

as afirmation that belief is also required in the water baptism. Ie John 3:5 born of water and spirit

Hi panevino, much of what you write here has been discussed and rediscussed etc. I have question for you. Who is your Savior Jesus or water?
ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Panevino, Randy Carson, Benedictus2 or whoever,
This is God’s salvation plan for ALL MANKIND!

The world didn’t start with the New Testament. It started with Adam & Eve. Rom 5:12,” When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. His sin spread death throughout all the world, so everything began to grow old and die. As a result, God had a substitutionary salvation plan in mind in order to save the human race. This is how it works! God in Leviticus 17:11, states, “For the LIFE of a creature is in the BLOOD, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the BLOOD that makes atonement for one’s life.” As a result, God’s salvation plan for the human race is twofold.

( 1 ) Substitutionary death: In the O. T. instead of people dying for their sins, animals were substituted. In the N. T. Jesus died in our place ( 2 ) BLOOD which represents LIFE, is used for atonement to forgive sins: In the O. T. animals BLOOD was used. In the N. T. Jesus’ BLOOD is used to forgive our sins and gives us eternal LIFE.

When Adam & Eve, sinned they covered themselves with fig leaves. Gen 3:7. But God, to forgive them, re-covered them with animal’s skins Gen. 3:21. WHY? Animals died in their place and the animal’s BLOOD atoned for their sins. As we continue, Cane brought some fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord, Abel brought fat portions from his flock. God rejected Cane’s offering but accepted Abel’s offering Gen 4:3. WHY? Abel killed an animal (died) and the BLOOD atoned for the sins. The Adam & Eve and the Cane & Abel incidences prefigured of what God then established in Moses’ time. A priestly system whereby the priests killed animals to die in man’s place and the BLOOD, which represents life, was sprinkled on the altar to forgive the people’s sins. Once, annually the High Priest entered a special room separated by a curtain, (Holy of Hollies) and sprinkled BLOOD for the atonement of his and the peoples sins. ( for precise details read Chapter 4 of Leviticus)

The same theme continues into the N. T. Jesus is our Lamb and died in our place and His BLOOD which represents LIFE atoned for our sins and gives us eternal LIFE. per Mat 26:28, Jesus speaks, “This is my BLOOD of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain of the temple was torn from top to the bottom, indicating that the priestly animal system of the O.T. expired and His death and BLOOD is the new covenant Mat 27:51. This is the result of what Jesus did Heb 9:24-28, “For Christ did not enter a man-made ( O.T. Holly of Hollies)sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; (in heaven) he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. v25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Holly of Hollies room once a year with blood that is not His own. v26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to DO AWAY with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. v27 Just as man is destined to die once , and after that to face judgment, v28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.”

Heb 10:19, states, “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Holly of Hollies Place by the BLOOD of Jesus, v20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, His body, v21 and since we have a High Priest over the house of God, v22 Let us draw near to God. Heb 9:22 states, “without the shedding of BLOOD there is no forgiveness of sins. “ Rev 1:5 states, He freed us from our sins by His BLOOD.

The above is God’s salvation plan for ALL creation,(the people in the O.T. had to be forgiven too) As you can see, nowhere in the above does it say that “water” baptism is used to forgive sins. “BELIEVE IT OR REJECT IT!” ED O.

 

[panevino]

Hi panevino, much of what you write here has been discussed and rediscussed etc. I have question for you. Who is your Savior Jesus or water?
ED O.

Ed, the question is Insulting…
“not by water only”
I dont think anyone has disagreed with you about the supreme importance of Jesus sacrafice/blood for forgivness of sins. As u know now ccc states fruits of sacraments depend on disposition of recipient.

Kjv John5: 6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth

Have u notice the importance water played In the OT sacrafice that Aaron made that you keep posting. I recall that he could die if he did not wash with water before approaching the holy of hollies and preparing things.
And now…, Jesus says water and spirit, (water and blood) Applicable to the new royal priesthood (1 peter2:9) that we all participate in.

 

[panevino]

1pet3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Ed ,
why do u think Peter even mentions water when it was noahs faith that saved him?
why does Peter says the words saved by water?
Why does he link The water of noahs story to baptism that" now saves " when he should of only being refering to belief?

Hi panevino, much of what you write here has been discussed and rediscussed etc. I have question for you. Who is your Savior Jesus or water?
ED O.

r u sure Ed.
I know u have said repeatedly that the words “pleddge/ answer of a good conscience…by the ressurection of Christ” mean that it’s the belief that saves .

But have you actually answered the question of “why Peter bothers to say the words saved by water?”

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy, you may have been literally washed, but there’s no such thing as the grace of that Sacrament. It’s the grace of Jesus who forgive our sins not water. Water has no grace, what you state is not in the Bible.

It is the grace from Jesus…no argument there. However, He has chosen to use the sacraments as the means by which we receive this grace.

I never said that I was washed, I said by my belief (faith) in Jesus is what forgave and atoned for my sins.

Your faith atoned for your sins? I thought the Blood of Jesus atoned for your sins…you say as much in the following paragraph:

It’s on that basis. In Mat 26:28 Jesus said," This is my blood of the new covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." When He said a new covenant, there must have been an old covenant and it goes like this, Lev.17:11, Jehovah (Father) God speaks, "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life. The Father the 1st person and Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity saying the same thing. It’s the blood that atones for sins.

I’m guessing that you simply mis-spoke when you said that your faith atones for your sins.

Here’s what I find on this thread. There are Catholics that have no idea as to what went on in the O.T. concerning the forgiveness sins, if they did, they would know that blood is the only source that forgives and atones for man’s sins. Here’s an example of what I’ve experienced. When I explained to Benedictus2 that in the O.T. it was the animals blood that was used to forgive sins, she replied, “If it worked so well why did Jesus have to come and die.” Doesn’t that tell you something? If Catholics really understood, God’s method of salvation for ALL MANKIND starting with the O.T., and then it continues into the N.T. with Jesus our Lamb’s blood, it wouldn’t matter whether the water in Jh 3:5 means baptism or physical birth they would know it’s only Blood that forgives and atones for sins. Nowhere and I repeat nowhere in the Bible does it say that “water:” baptism atones for sins. ED O. I wasn’t there, if you know for certain you tell me. How’s that for an answer? We went over John 20:22 before,so why waste time.ED O

I realize that this thread will be locked soon (thankfully since the premise of the OP is absurd - Catholics do not reject any verse of the 73 books of the Bible).

The Catholic Church does not teach that water baptism atones for sin. Only the Blood of Christ did this. So, Christ’s blood atones for our sins and the price that He paid was more than sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world. The question is how that is applied to us individually. It must be applied to us individually; otherwise, no one would ever go to hell because they would be covered by Jesus’ blood applied universally. Since I don’t think you would accept that EVERYONE is automatically covered, we agree that the price that Jesus paid must be applied to our account, so to speak, on an individual basis.

However, the Bible does teach that we are "baptized into Christ’ and that Baptism washes away the stain of original sin as well as any actual sins that we have committed prior to baptism. This is proven here:

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Finally, the reason I asked when the Apostles were filled with the Spirit is because the Bible reveals that this ocurred multiple times - not once.

Water baptism occurs once and by this sacrament we enter into the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is present in this rite of initiation which is fulfilled in confirmation. I also happen to think that the Spirit may come upon someone in even greater power at other times in his or her life.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi panevino, much of what you write here has been discussed and rediscussed etc. I have question for you. Who is your Savior Jesus or water?
ED O.

This is a false dichotomy.

Jesus saves, and He does so (normatively) by means of the sacrament of baptism which He commanded the Apostles to do in the great commission.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Panevino, Randy Carson, Benedictus2 or whoever,
This is God’s salvation plan for ALL MANKIND!

The world didn’t start with the New Testament. It started with Adam & Eve. Rom 5:12,” When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. His sin spread death throughout all the world, so everything began to grow old and die. As a result, God had a substitutionary salvation plan in mind in order to save the human race. This is how it works! God in Leviticus 17:11, states, “For the LIFE of a creature is in the BLOOD, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the BLOOD that makes atonement for one’s life.” As a result, God’s salvation plan for the human race is twofold.

( 1 ) Substitutionary death: In the O. T. instead of people dying for their sins, animals were substituted. In the N. T. Jesus died in our place ( 2 ) BLOOD which represents LIFE, is used for atonement to forgive sins: In the O. T. animals BLOOD was used. In the N. T. Jesus’ BLOOD is used to forgive our sins and gives us eternal LIFE.

When Adam & Eve, sinned they covered themselves with fig leaves. Gen 3:7. But God, to forgive them, re-covered them with animal’s skins Gen. 3:21. WHY? Animals died in their place and the animal’s BLOOD atoned for their sins. As we continue, Cane brought some fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord, Abel brought fat portions from his flock. God rejected Cane’s offering but accepted Abel’s offering Gen 4:3. WHY? Abel killed an animal (died) and the BLOOD atoned for the sins. The Adam & Eve and the Cane & Abel incidences prefigured of what God then established in Moses’ time. A priestly system whereby the priests killed animals to die in man’s place and the BLOOD, which represents life, was sprinkled on the altar to forgive the people’s sins. Once, annually the High Priest entered a special room separated by a curtain, (Holy of Hollies) and sprinkled BLOOD for the atonement of his and the peoples sins. ( for precise details read Chapter 4 of Leviticus)

The same theme continues into the N. T. Jesus is our Lamb and died in our place and His BLOOD which represents LIFE atoned for our sins and gives us eternal LIFE. per Mat 26:28, Jesus speaks, “This is my BLOOD of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain of the temple was torn from top to the bottom, indicating that the priestly animal system of the O.T. expired and His death and BLOOD is the new covenant Mat 27:51. This is the result of what Jesus did Heb 9:24-28, “For Christ did not enter a man-made ( O.T. Holly of Hollies)sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; (in heaven) he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. v25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Holly of Hollies room once a year with blood that is not His own. v26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to DO AWAY with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. v27 Just as man is destined to die once , and after that to face judgment, v28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.”

Heb 10:19, states, “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Holly of Hollies Place by the BLOOD of Jesus, v20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, His body, v21 and since we have a High Priest over the house of God, v22 Let us draw near to God. Heb 9:22 states, “without the shedding of BLOOD there is no forgiveness of sins. “ Rev 1:5 states, He freed us from our sins by His BLOOD.

The above is God’s salvation plan for ALL creation,(the people in the O.T. had to be forgiven too) As you can see, nowhere in the above does it say that “water” baptism is used to forgive sins. “BELIEVE IT OR REJECT IT!” ED O.

Skimming quickly, I agree with everything right up to the end.

The Blood of Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, me included.

The Water of Baptism washes those sins away from us individually, you included.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

And by the way, since you have such a fixation on the Blood of Jesus (not that there’s anything wrong with that ), you should also know that at the first Passover, the Jews were commanded to spread the blood on the doorposts AND they had to eat the Lamb.

Gee, any connection to eating the Lamb who is really and truly present in the Eucharist?

 

[macaronte]

Ed wrote:
"The only reason you think it’s baptism is because that is what you were told.​

To begin with, let me say that I was taught by the Magisterium of the Church… thanks to the APOSTLIC succesion which you -unfortunately- don’t happen to have. We, Catholics, have two fountains to drink from: Holy Scriptures and Apostolic Tradition. And who do you have may I ask? Your own private interpretation? If that’s so… then Joe Blows interpretation is just as valid as yours. Therefore, the interpretation to which I adhere is just as valid also.!!

–macaronte

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
Ed, the question is Insulting…
“not by water only”

Hi panevino, my question to you on post 984 was.," Who is your Savior Jesus or water?" ----- You felt insulted by that question, for that I apologize. -----You now respond “not by water only”. ----- So what you really mean, is that it takes Jesus’ blood and water to be saved. -----That’s not Scriptural! ----- In essence what you are saying is that Jesus’ blood alone is insufficient to save by its self. -----That’s an insult to Jesus, to say that water saves and forgives sins, after what Jesus endured on the cross. ----- Nowhere! Did Jesus ever say that “water” baptism forgives sins. You have to be misinterpreting what Peter ment 3:21 about Noah etc., but Jesus is the authority over Peter. Jesus very cleary states that His blood forgives sins and that comes about and is applied upon belief PERIOD. You have a hang up with “water, washing or sprinkle” that automatically means baptism to you. As you said Arron washed his hands in water prior to entering the Holly of Hollies room. To you that must means something holy rather than plain hygiene before aproaching God’s place

I dont think anyone has disagreed with you about the supreme importance of Jesus sacrafice/blood for forgivness of sins.

And that sacrifice/blood is applied upon hearing and believing the gospel of our salvation. We are then sealed by the Holy Spirit. It’s there in plain English when you read it in Eph 113. There’s no way that the Holy Spirit will come upon a person who’s sins aren’t forgiven and atoned for That’s exactly what took place in Acts 10:44 with the centurion and his family. There’s no way that you can deny it and “water” baptism is not mentioned. If you want more, I can give a dozen more Scriptures. And the best you can do is Acts 2:38, 22:16. IPet 3:21 and Titus 3:5. which is subject to your bias interpretation. If Peter means saved by “water” baptism, then Paul made a mistake by telling the jailer that he must believe in Jesus to be saved. Please Note Paul did not say believe in Jesus and be “water” baptized to be saved.

Are you aware that none of the mother’s blood enters the child during pregnancy? It’s only the father’s blood. This is very important please give me your answer. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Randy Carson
It is the grace from Jesus…no argument there. However, He has chosen to use the sacraments as the means by which we receive this grace.

Hi Randy, your last sentence here, “grace is received by sacrament”, you have no Scripture to support for that statement.

Your faith atoned for your sins? I thought the Blood of Jesus atoned for your sins…you say as much in the following paragraph:

Randy, when I say that I have faith in Jesus, do you think what I mean is: that I know He lived once upon a time or that He was a good teacher? NO! NO! NO! ----- When I or we have faith/belief in Jesus that means we believe the gospel of our salvation. At that moment of belief, we are saved, his blood has to be applied so that our sins are not only forgiven but atoned too, otherwise we could not be sealed by the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13,. In addition, we believe that He died and was buried and was resurrected and He is now our High Priest in heaven.----- That’s what it means to have faith/belief in Jesus. That’s exactly what took place with the centurion and his family. They got saved when Peter preached the gospel to them. -------Now do you understand what faith/belief in Jesus means.

I’m guessing that you simply mis-spoke when you said that your faith atones for your sins.

I didn’t mis-spoke, as I just said above my faith in Jesus does it all in a moment of time.

I realize that this thread will be locked soon (thankfully since the premise of the OP is absurd - Catholics do not reject any verse of the 73 books of the Bible).

I was quite amazed by her response.
The Catholic Church does not teach that water baptism atones for sin.

It teaches the “water:” baptism forgives sins, which contradicts what Jesus said that is, His blood forgives sins. By the way what good does “water” baptism do that forgives sins when they are not atoned for? Zero! Zilch! Nothing! So according to your theology, you have to do two things in order to get saved. ( 1 ) “water” baptism to forgive sins ( 2 ) then believe in Jesus’ blood for atoment. But when you have faith and believe in Jesus it’s done all at once. We are Justified! Then the sanctifying process begins. We get “water” baptized to show our repentance which means we are leaving our past life and turning to God. When the Holy Spirit brings a sin that we have committed to mind we confess it to God. It continues until all of our sins are confessed over a period of time. That’s Bible theology.

Only the Blood of Christ did this. So, Christ’s blood atones for our sins and the price that He paid was more than sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world. The question is how that is applied to us individually. It must be applied to us individually; otherwise, no one would ever go to hell because they would be covered by Jesus’ blood applied universally. Since I don’t think you would accept that EVERYONE is automatically covered, we agree that the price that Jesus paid must be applied to our account, so to speak, on an individual basis.

You are exactly right. It’s applied individually by belief in Jesus. Didn’t God show us through the centurion’s episode that’s how it works? And Paul told the Jailer believe in Jesus. And John 1:13 & 3:16, Rom 10:9,10,13 many more. Your theology is backwards. One first gets “water” baptized then in some mystical way ( which has no Scripture support) Jesus somehow fits in with, blood atonement,Holy Spirit. Do as Scripture states. Jesus in Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” Not whoever is baptized and believes will be saved.

However, the Bible does teach that we are "baptized into Christ’ and that Baptism washes away the stain of original sin as well as any actual sins that we have committed prior to baptism. This is proven here:

That is not in the Bible. There’s no Scripture for it. Period! There’s only ONE baptism that we are baptized into Christ and it’s not “water” baptism. It’s the baptism in the Holy Spirit that both Jesus in Acts 1:5 and John in Mat 3:11. speak about.

Finally, the reason I asked when the Apostles were filled with the Spirit is because the Bible reveals that this ocurred multiple times - not once.

No! only twice in John 20:22 which could be a question when you consider this John 14:17, “----- But you know Him (H.S.) for He lives WITH you, and will be IN you.” Jesus is speaking about Pentecost. Acts 2:4-----Also consider this: The Holy Spirit is a person that’s why we call the Holy Spirit He/Him. How many times can that Holy Spirit as a person be in you, except once?

Water baptism occurs once and by this sacrament we enter into the body of Christ.

There’s only ONE baptism that unifies us with Christ and it’s not “water” baptism.

The Holy Spirit is present in this rite of initiation which is fulfilled in confirmation.

The rite of confirmation is not in the Bible. The reason you have confirmation is because you claim that the Holy Spirit in some mystical way comes at “water” baptism which has no Scripture support.----- Your theology then has to do something about Acts 8:17 when the people received the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands so you call it confirmation. Which means you get the Holy Spirit twice. Once at “water” baptism and another at Confirmation!

I also happen to think that the Spirit may come upon someone in even greater power at other times in his or her life

You say you “think” -----But there’s only ONE power of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Bible. Listen to Jesus in Acts1:8, “But you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes on; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, etc.” God Bless! ED O.