Catholics saved by Grace alone?

[De_Maria]

It is impossible for any person to be saved without grace.

Agreed.

However, it is possible to be saved without faith and works.

How?

Faith and works are how we participate in the economy of salvation, but at the end of our life, when we breathe our last breath, it is grace (alone) that saves us. That is why the Church uses the term, “state of Grace.” If we die in a state of Grace, we are saved. If we are not in a state of Grace, we are condemned.

You are wrong in adding the word “alone”. Even in parenthesis.

1. At the end of our life we are saved by God. But God is not equivalent to grace. Grace is a gift of God and Sanctifying Grace is a gift of participating in the life of God, but neither is equivalent to God Himself.
2. At the end of our life, we are saved or condemned based upon what we have wrought in our life. It is because of what we have DONE that we are saved or condemned. What we have DONE is due to our cooperation with God’s grace. Our act of will.
3. It is Catholic Teaching that our will is free. God has somehow made us independent to choose whether we want death or life.

We place ourselves in (our out of) a state of Grace by our participation in the economy of salvation (which includes faith and works),

And there you have proved that we are not saved by Grace ALONE.

but when we die, at that moment (which is the most significant moment we will ever experience), it is Grace alone which saves us.

False. Let the Word of God explain it to you:
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he **shall reward every man according to his **works.

Because, in Catholic thinking, salvation is not assured - you can only be truly saved if you are in a state of Grace at the moment of death.

You can only remain in a state of grace by continuing in faith and works:
CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]

Ultimately, the moment of death is what determines your salvation.

It is your works throughout your life which determine the salvation of most people. That is why it is so important to make virtuous habits throughout our life. Because if we don’t make a habit of calling upon God throughout our life, we probably won’t do it at the moment of our death.
**

Faith and works (and Grace) help justify

(and sanctify) us, but it is Grace alone that saves us at that moment when we draw our last breath.**

Grace alone is a Protestant doctrine not taught by the Catholic Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Dear De Maria

Thank you for your detailed feedback.
I can see that you are very passionate about your faith.

I would like to share with me a more holistic view on the topic and would appreciate your feedback.

You’re welcome. And I can see that you are also passionate of your faith.

I would like to present our holistic view on the topic as engaging in a point by point rebuttal of your message would be tedious. Especially since our differences are at the very core of the fundamentals.

I would like to preface with the words, “Obedience, Gepetto!”

Obedience is very important to God. It is because of the disobedience of the first parents, Adam and Eve, that we are in the situation in which we find ourselves.

That is why God sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
1 Peter 2:21
**For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his **steps:

You see, we must take up our cross and follow Christ. That entails works. Works of obedience without which we will not be saved:
Romans 2:13
**(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

But we will not be saved by our works:
Galatians 2:16
**Knowing that a man is not justified by the ****works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be ****justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the ****works of the law: for by the ****works of the law shall no flesh be **justified.

But we will be saved BECAUSE OF THEM.
Genesis 22:15-17 (King James Version)

15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

And without good works, we will not be saved:
Titus 1:16
**They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work **reprobate.

Jesus Christ will save only those who obey:
Hebrews 5:9
**And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Dear De Maria

I also wanted to add, that the explanation you gave as to the respective roles of St. Peter and St. Paul in the building of the Church, is not scriptural. Especially if you study Galatians 2:7-20.

I provided Scripture to show you. I’ll show you again.
Acts 15:7
**And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my **mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And as we can see, it was first St. Peter who converted the Gentiles:
Acts 10:
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? **** 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

And it is St. Peter whom Jesus set as Pastor over His Flock:
John 21:17
**He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my **sheep.

Be careful that you don’t teach people things, that had simply been taught (passed on) to you, when you have no personal revelation from Scripture for that teaching. God takes that very serious.

He certainly does. Therefore YOU need to take that advice yourself. You see, YOU don’t realize that St. Paul is the only author of Scripture which the SCRIPTURES WARN ABOUT saying:
2 Peter 3:16
**As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be **understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

But you wade right into his teachings without first consulting the rest of Scripture and making sure that your understanding of St. Paul lines up with the other Apostles.
Another thing to point out is that Jesus said that HE would built His Church, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He did not assign any person to built His Church.

You should not find your identity in a spesific denomination and their teachings.

In fact, you need to identify the Church which Christ built. Because Jesus only built one.
Matthew 16:18
**And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my **church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Once you identify that Church, stick with it. Scripture describes it.

It will be led by a Pastor assigned by Christ:
Luke 22:30-32 (King James Version)

30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

It will feed you the Bread of Life:
John 6:51
**I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this ****bread, he shall live for ever: and the ****bread that I will ****give is my ****flesh, which I will **give for the life of the world.

You need to find your identity in Christ and in Him alone.

Yet Christ doesn’t ask us to find our identity in Him alone. He established a Church and says:
Matthew 18:17
**And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the ****church: but if he neglect to **hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

He established leaders and Scripture says:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Therefore, your telling me to identify with Christ alone, goes against Scripture:
1 Corinthians 11:1
**Be ye followers of ****me, even as I also am of **Christ.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

To seek Truth is to leave everything familiar behind, and to follow Jesus, and surely when you do that you will be persecuted, ESPECIALLY by the religious croud.

As Catholics, we already know that. The world persecutes the Catholic Church. Including all the other denominations which all contradict each other, yet all of you, despise the Church of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church.

It was not in the end the prostitutes and tax collectors that cruficied and hated Jesus. It was the religious people of the day, who had it all “figured out” they believed, and Jesus simply didn’t fit into their “box”.

Notice how Protestants have it all figured out. They claim to know the Scriptures better than anyone, they claim to be saved. Yes, they are like the Pharisees.

Catholics, on the other hand, we live the teachings of Jesus Christ, but we don’t pretend that doing so we are saved. We rely on the mercy of God and do not usurp His Judgment as Protestants are prone to do.

It is still like that today.

To know Him, one needs to follow Him, and love Truth, more than any group of people, to love Him, even more than life itself.

Amen! And to love Him is to obey Him:
Deuteronomy 30:20
**That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest **obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And that may often cause you to lose a lot of popularity.
But a follower is no different from His Master.

God loves you and He is calling you, to abandon all, and to follow Him.
To abandon even all your constructs and concepts of who He is. And to allow Him, to reveal Himself to you, in Spirit and in Truth.
He has had His eye on you, since your birth.
And He has called you to bring shaking to nations.
But you need to lose your life first. In order to find it.

All that is Catholic Teaching.

As for our access to the Throne of God, read Hebrews, especially 10:19. Jesus is our Priest. We need no mediater.

Read 1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

If we want to be Christians, we must imitate the one Mediator. Christ is our example. He mediates, therefore we mediate:
1 Timothy 4:16
**Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both ****save **thyself, and them that hear thee.

Yes, we have one Mediator. And we are that Mediator. We are His Body. Therefore MEDIATE!

Especially not Mary.

My goodness?! You really don’t know Scripture do you? Don’t you realize that even God PRAISED MARY. Why wouldn’t I request her mediation:
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. **The effectual fervent prayer of a ****righteous **man availeth much.

How much more does the prayer of the woman which the Word of God describes as:

Luke 1:28
**And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly **favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Have you not realized?

Answer these questions:

Who sent the Angel?
Did the Angel deliver God’s message?
If the Angel delivered God’s message, then is it the Angel or God or both calling praising Mary?
And then go further down and notice that the Holy Spirit, God, inspired St. Elizabeth also to praise Mary?
And then in Scripture, the Virgin Mary confirms that all generations will praise her. So, doesn’t God want both men and angels to praise Mary?
Hasn’t God Himself praised Mary in Scripture?

Why then won’t you?
And why won’t you request her intercession?

Kindly and Truthfully

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[July_James]

To worship Mary is to practice idolatry.

To practice idolatry of any kind, is to disobey Jesus.

To disobey Jesus, means not to follow Him.

 

[July_James]

Dear De Maria

I want to ask you a question to answer honestly to yourself:
“Are you more passionate about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or are you more passionate about Truth.”
Would you dismiss anything that contradict catholic teachings, even if it is Truth?

Galatians 2:7-20

“But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the UNCIRCUMCISED had been committed to me (Paul), as the gospel for the CIRCUMSIZED was to PETER (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me towards the GENTILES)…”

Jesus called those who do the will of the Father His mother and his brothers, and made no special fuss when they even came to see him.

God is no respector of persons. Mary had a special task to birth Jesus, but Elizabeth had a special task to birth John, and you have a special task to bring forth Christ in you, as you also receive the Living Seed of the Word of God in Your Spiritual womb.

The Truth will set you free.

Like the Moslems, the Mormons and many cult groups, are mind controlled, to see nothing else but the teachings of their group, regardless of whatever evidence or truth is brought to them, so are you.
But if you will chose to love truth, and allow the Holy Spirit to remove those bondages from your mind, the eyes of your heart will become enlightened with truth, and you will realise that you have been lied to all your life.

I pray for your deliverance, for you are a precious soul.

 

[thistle]

Dear De Maria

I want to ask you a question to answer honestly to yourself:
“Are you more passionate about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or are you more passionate about Truth.”
Would you dismiss anything that contradict catholic teachings, even if it is Truth?

Galatians 2:7-20

“But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the UNCIRCUMCISED had been committed to me (Paul), as the gospel for the CIRCUMSIZED was to PETER (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me towards the GENTILES)…”

Jesus called those who do the will of the Father His mother and his brothers, and made no special fuss when they even came to see him.

God is no respector of persons. Mary had a special task to birth Jesus, but Elizabeth had a special task to birth John, and you have a special task to bring forth Christ in you, as you also receive the Living Seed of the Word of God in Your Spiritual womb.

The Truth will set you free.

Like the Moslems, the Mormons and many cult groups, are mind controlled, to see nothing else but the teachings of their group, regardless of whatever evidence or truth is brought to them, so are you.
But if you will chose to love truth, and allow the Holy Spirit to remove those bondages from your mind, the eyes of your heart will become enlightened with truth, and you will realise that you have been lied to all your life.

I pray for your deliverance, for you are a precious soul.

When it comes to our salvation only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. This was given to the Catholic Church by Christ who established it on Peter, and gave it authority.

 

[Lampo]

We are justified by grace through faith and our works.

But isn’t grace the catalyst for faith and works? We would not have faith if not for grace. We would not do good works if not for God’s grace.

 

[Lampo]

“Are you more passionate about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or are you more passionate about Truth.”

Oxymoron. They are one and the same. That’s like asking, “Are you more passionate about the Bible, or are you more passionate about the Truth?”

 

[diggerdomer]

That we are not saved by grace alone. I thought that was obvious.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[diggerdomer]

To worship Mary is to practice idolatry.

To practice idolatry of any kind, is to disobey Jesus.

To disobey Jesus, means not to follow Him.

Which is why Catholics don’t worship Mary.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Quote: However, it is possible to be saved without faith and works.
How?

It is possible for Baptized infants to be saved without Faith nor works. You seem to want to ignore this point, but it is Doctrine. Maybe Trent did not address this point, but it is clearly established. Furthermore, the Church teaches that persons who have no opportunity to accept Jesus may yet be saved. These people are saved based upon their works (charity, etc) as compelled by their conscience. This is the extent of their “Faith.”

Yet, a Catholic Religious Monk or Nun, who has dedicated an entire lifetime to prayer and sacrifice and good works, who commits a single mortal sin (maybe his/her very first mortal sin) upon the instant of his/her death, will be condemned. This is also doctrine.

We are neither “saved” nor “condemned” until the moment of our death. This is also doctrine. At this moment, it is neither Faith nor works which will save us, but Grace ALONE. We are either in a State of Grace, or outside it. This is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. This is also doctrine.

 

[Pete_Holter]

“For through the sin of the first man, which came from his free will, our nature became corrupted and ruined; and nothing but God’s grace alone, through Him who is the Mediator between God and men, and our Almighty Physician, succours it” (Doctor of Grace, On the Grace of Christ).

“[M]an is delivered from the wounds of that murder by the grace of the Saviour alone, and those sold into sin are delivered from the bonds of captivity by the grace of the Redeemer alone. For this reason, a most just punishment falls on those who try to make excuses for their sins and wickedness, whereas grace alone delivers those who are delivered” (Doctor of Grace, Letter 194).

“It is grace alone that separates the redeemed from the lost” (Doctor of Grace, , Ch. 99The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope, and Love).

“[M]an is made a member of Christ through grace alone” (Aquinas, Summa Theologica).

“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).

In Christ,
Pete

 

[Mangy_Donkey]

Dear De Maria

Like the Moslems, the Mormons and many cult groups, are mind controlled, to see nothing else but the teachings of their group, regardless of whatever evidence or truth is brought to them, so are you.
But if you will chose to love truth, and allow the Holy Spirit to remove those bondages from your mind, the eyes of your heart will become enlightened with truth, and you will realise that you have been lied to all your life.

I pray for your deliverance, for you are a precious soul.

You sound like a typical non Catholic robot. De Maria soundly thrashed your misconceptions so you resort to “Catholics are mind controlled”

I would have to say that you did a very poor job, at best, presenting what you consider truth. Did you even read through De Maria’s posts that were all scriptural. Perhaps it is you that has been lied to?

 

[Cruxis117]

Dear De Maria

I want to ask you a question to answer honestly to yourself:
"Are you more passionate about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or are you more passionate about Truth."
Would you dismiss anything that contradict catholic teachings, even if it is Truth?

Impossible, the Catholic Church preaches the Truth. This is, as made example of by other posters, is an oxymoron.

Galatians 2:7-20

“But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the UNCIRCUMCISED had been committed to me (Paul), as the gospel for the CIRCUMSIZED was to PETER (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me towards the GENTILES)…”

Jesus called those who do the will of the Father His mother and his brothers, and made no special fuss when they even came to see him.

God is no respector of persons. Mary had a special task to birth Jesus, but Elizabeth had a special task to birth John, and you have a special task to bring forth Christ in you, as you also receive the Living Seed of the Word of God in Your Spiritual womb.

The Truth will set you free.

Like the Moslems, the Mormons and many cult groups, are mind controlled, to see nothing else but the teachings of their group, regardless of whatever evidence or truth is brought to them, so are you.
But if you will chose to love truth, and allow the Holy Spirit to remove those bondages from your mind, the eyes of your heart will become enlightened with truth, and you will realise that you have been lied to all your life.

I hope you do find the Truth, Mr. James, for we are always welcome to those who wish to recieve it. But you cannot find it without the Church, and that happens to be a fact.

I pray for your deliverance, for you are a precious soul.

 

[clmowry]

To worship Mary is to practice idolatry.

To practice idolatry of any kind, is to disobey Jesus.

To disobey Jesus, means not to follow Him.

Yeah. And?

Chuck

 

[De_Maria]

It is possible for Baptized infants to be saved without Faith nor works. You seem to want to ignore this point, but it is Doctrine. Maybe Trent did not address this point, but it is clearly established.

I know it is doctrine. But it is a special case. But even Baptized infants are not saved by grace alone. They are saved by the faith of their parents. If their parents did not take them to be baptized, they would not be saved.

For an infant to be saved by grace alone, that infant would not need to be baptized. And that is a question which the Catholic Church has not answered.

Furthermore, the Church teaches that persons who have no opportunity to accept Jesus may yet be saved. These people are saved based upon their works (charity, etc) as compelled by their conscience. This is the extent of their “Faith.”

But it is not by grace alone. As you have proved.

Yet, a Catholic Religious Monk or Nun, who has dedicated an entire lifetime to prayer and sacrifice and good works, who commits a single mortal sin (maybe his/her very first mortal sin) upon the instant of his/her death, will be condemned. This is also doctrine.

Correct.

We are neither “saved” nor “condemned” until the moment of our death. This is also doctrine.

On the contrary, many a Catholic Saint has been saved way before his death:
Trent VI
**CHAPTER XII
RASH PRESUMPTION OF PREDESTINATION IS TO BE AVOIDED
**No one, moreover, so long as he lives this mortal life, ought in regard to the sacred mystery of divine predestination, so far presume as to state with absolute certainty that he is among the number of the predestined,[74] as if it were true that the one justified either cannot sin any more, or, if he does sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance.
For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen to Himself.

At this moment, it is neither Faith nor works which will save us, but Grace ALONE. We are either in a State of Grace, or outside it. This is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. This is also doctrine.

Nope. Not grace alone. It is always pronounced as “State of Grace”. The Church has never said, “State of Grace alone”.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

But isn’t grace the catalyst for faith and works? We would not have faith if not for grace. We would not do good works if not for God’s grace.

You are correct. But the Church simply says that all is grace. She does not say, it is by “grace alone” because at the point of justification, we must cooperate with that grace by an act of free will.

 

[diggerdomer]

I know it is doctrine. But it is a special case. But even Baptized infants are not saved by grace alone. They are saved by the faith of their parents. If their parents did not take them to be baptized, they would not be saved.

This is not in accordance with Catholic teaching.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church para 846-848 e.g.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I know it is doctrine. But it is a special case. But even Baptized infants are not saved by grace alone. They are saved by the faith of their parents.

No, absolutely they are not.

At a Baptism, nobody in the room requires even an iota of faith (not the parents, not the minister, and not the godparents). They could all be faithless satanists, every single one of them. Yet, if the minister has at least the intent to “do what the Church does” (even though he may have absolutely no idea what that even means), and assuming the form and matter are valid, then that Baptism is every bit as valid as one performed by the Pope himself. The minister need not be Ordained clergy, or even Baptized him/herself for the Baptism to be valid. This is doctrine.

If their parents did not take them to be baptized, they would not be saved.

True, but there may be other motives to seek baptism instead of faith. A politician who was a satanist (but secretly) in a Catholic district might seek Baptism for his infant child simply to deflect suspicion. Or maybe we think it would make Aunt Betty happy, and we want to keep dear Aunt Betty happy (or she will write us out of her will, and Aunt Betty is loaded).

Faith (of the recipient, or the parent, or even the minister) is NOT required for valid Baptism (and this is true even if the recipient is an adult who is lying between his teeth when he confirms his vows). Faith is nice, but absolutely not required in any way. This is doctrine.