L
Lampo
Guest
Makes sense to me. I agree with the Church.
- Status
D
De_Maria
Guest
Hi Pete,
Thanks for your response. I know you think you’ve made a point because you’ve encountered the words “grace alone” several times in these references. But although the references are correct, your using them in this discussion is misplaced.
The fact is that the Church teaches that we receive many things by GRACE ALONE. But not salvation.
Let me give you a short list of the things associated with salvation which we received by grace alone:
Now, since we have already prolonged this work too far in treating* of the assistance of the divine grace** towards our justification, by which God co-operates in all things for good with those who love Him, Romans 8:28 and whom He first loved 1 John 4:19 — giving to them that He might receive from them: we must commence another treatise, as the Lord shall enable us, on the subject of sin also, which by one man has entered into the world, along with death, and so has passed upon all men, Romans 5:12persons who have broken out into violent and open error, contrary to the truth here stated.*…
That starts with the very next sentence of that which you referenced.
On Grace and Free Will
Where in he points out, that God offers us His grace that we might use our free will to accept it. I quote:
Chapter 2 [II.]— He Proves the Existence of Free Will in Man from the Precepts Addressed to Him by God.
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God’s precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards…
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm
cont’d
Thanks for your response. I know you think you’ve made a point because you’ve encountered the words “grace alone” several times in these references. But although the references are correct, your using them in this discussion is misplaced.
The fact is that the Church teaches that we receive many things by GRACE ALONE. But not salvation.
Let me give you a short list of the things associated with salvation which we received by grace alone:
- The Word was made flesh, by grace alone. I don’t think any man could have forced God to become man, could they? Therefore, God chose to do it of free will and volition and it is a free gift to mankind.
- Jesus suffered, died that we might live, by grace alone. No man could have done that. No man could have forced God to do it. Therefore, it is by grace alone.
- The Holy Spirit came to be our Comforter by grace alone. No man could have done that.
- Jesus established the Sacraments by grace alone. Again, who could do that?
You should have read a little bit further on this one Pete:
Now, since we have already prolonged this work too far in treating* of the assistance of the divine grace** towards our justification, by which God co-operates in all things for good with those who love Him, Romans 8:28 and whom He first loved 1 John 4:19 — giving to them that He might receive from them: we must commence another treatise, as the Lord shall enable us, on the subject of sin also, which by one man has entered into the world, along with death, and so has passed upon all men, Romans 5:12persons who have broken out into violent and open error, contrary to the truth here stated.*…
That starts with the very next sentence of that which you referenced.
The Doctor of Grace was not addressing the heresy of salvation by grace alone. He was simply stating that grace comes only from God and only by accepting His grace will we be saved. To make that point more clear and to clarify what he had written previously, St. Augustine wrote this dissertation:
On Grace and Free Will
Where in he points out, that God offers us His grace that we might use our free will to accept it. I quote:
Chapter 2 [II.]— He Proves the Existence of Free Will in Man from the Precepts Addressed to Him by God.
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God’s precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards…
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm
cont’d
D
De_Maria
Guest
cont’d
Chapter 105. Man Was So Created as to Be Able to Choose Either Good or Evil: in the Future Life, the Choice of Evil Will Be Impossible.
Now it was expedient that man should be at first so created, as to have it in his power both to will what was right and to will what was wrong; not without reward if he willed the former, and not without punishment if he willed the latter. But in the future life it shall not be in his power to will evil;…
Ask yourself, how do we arrive at Baptism. All you need to do to answer that question is think about RCIA. Or you might want to go through Trent VI starting at chapter V.
the use of the words “grace alone” by many of our Saints and Early Christians, does not constitute a doctrine of salvation by grace alone.
May you always remain, In Christ,
Sincerely,
De Maria
Keep reading:
Chapter 105. Man Was So Created as to Be Able to Choose Either Good or Evil: in the Future Life, the Choice of Evil Will Be Impossible.
Now it was expedient that man should be at first so created, as to have it in his power both to will what was right and to will what was wrong; not without reward if he willed the former, and not without punishment if he willed the latter. But in the future life it shall not be in his power to will evil;…
This is actually true. We are made members of the Body of Christ in Baptism. And Baptism is a work of God. A Sacrament. And only one step in the process of Salvation.
Ask yourself, how do we arrive at Baptism. All you need to do to answer that question is think about RCIA. Or you might want to go through Trent VI starting at chapter V.
- First God calls us. An unmerited gift of grace.
- IF and I made that a big if on purpose, IF we accept His grace, we begin to be sorry for our sins and to seek Him by good works. We begin to modify our lives and keep the His Commandments. We join RCIA and ask to be Baptized.
- Again, IF we have satisfactorily done all that, we are then Baptized. We become members of the Body of Christ and are regenerated and renewed that we may walk in the works that God has prepared for us from the beginning.
- And the cycle begins again, because there are SEVEN Sacraments.
I broke in right here because the aforementioned is all about free will. IF ONLY WE…
Yeah, after we accept and cooperate with the grace of God.
Pete,
the use of the words “grace alone” by many of our Saints and Early Christians, does not constitute a doctrine of salvation by grace alone.
May you always remain, In Christ,
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
De_Maria
Guest
We don’t worship Mary.
That is true.
That is also true.
How about Scripture? Should you obey Scripture? Do you listen to the Church or do you make up your own mind about your faith?
Scripture says:
Matthew 18:17
**And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the ****church: but if he neglect to **hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
**How about traditions? Do you keep traditions?
Scripture says:
2 Thessalonians 2:15**
**Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the ****traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
**
How about your leaders in the Church, do you obey them?
Scripture says;
Hebrews 13:17
**Obey them that have the **rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
How about learning your faith? Do you learn your faith from Scripture alone?
Scripture says:
Hebrews 13:7
**Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith **follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
De_Maria
Guest
- The teachings of the Catholic Church are all true.
- The Scriptures call the Church the Pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Does your church fit that description? The Catholic Church does.
The reason I’m Catholic, is because I’ve not found any Catholic Teachings which contradict the Truth.
Scripture also says:
Acts 15:7
**And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my **mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
So you are making an argument from silence. There are lots of things that Jesus didn’t make a fuss about.
You don’t see the resemblance between
you have a special task to bring forth Christ in you
and
Mary had a special task to birth Jesus
We have a saying, Mary is our example, she said yes to God, took the Holy Spirit into her heart, brought forth our Lord Jesus Christ, loved Him and gave Him to the world.
If you follow her example, YOU will be blessed.
AMEN! That is why Mary is our Spiritual Mother. Unless you have Mary in your heart, the Holy Spirit will not conceive Christ therein.
I pray that you come to the Truth. You will find the Fullness of Truth, in the Catholic Church.
What about you? You don’t seem to have considered any of the Scriptures presented. You just brush them aside and keep hanging on to your traditions of men.
May God lead you to that realization soon.
Thank you. I will pray for you as well.
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
De_Maria
Guest
D
De_Maria
Guest
Yes, they are David. You’re response is a non-sequitur.
99.9 percent of all infant baptisms take place because of the faith of the parents. Do you know of any situation where a non Christian has baptized a child? Why would they do that? Unless the request came from the faith of the child’s parents or from the faith of some other Christian?
Just because the person baptizing does not need to be a member of the faith, that doesn’t mean that faith does not precede the Baptism.
You don’t understand the Catholic doctrine David. The Catholic Church doesn’t want pagan children to be baptized Christian by pagan ministers willy nilly. Why? Because there is no faith there.
The intent is always that the child will be able to grow in the faith, unless death is imminent, in which case, the intent is to save the soul. In either case, although the pagan minister may not have any faith in the Sacrament, he is passing on the grace with the faith of the Church or the party who requested the Sacrament.
Sincerely,
De Maria
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
Thanks, De Maria.
I’ve read those chapters from Augustine, thank you. My wife calls me Augnut.
Augustine said that for Paul’s call “from heaven and his conversion by that great and most effectual call, God’s grace was alone.” But after this gift of operative grace, “neither was it the grace of God alone, nor was it he himself alone, but it was the grace of God with him.” This is cooperative grace. Paul, “in order to exhibit also his free will, … added in the next clause, ‘And His grace within me was not in vain, but I have laboured more abundantly than they all’ (1 Corinthians 15:10). This free will of man he appeals to in the case of others also, as when he says to them, ‘We beseech you that ye receive not the grace of God in vain’ (2 Corinthians 6:1)” (, Ch. 12On Grace and Free Will). Operating grace establishes us in cooperation with God: “in one of these cases He co-operates with man as the agent, in the other He does it alone” (, Bk. 2, Ch. 20Against Two Letters of the Pelagians).
“[W]ho was it that had begun to give [Peter] his love, however small, but He who prepares the will, and perfects by His co-operation what He initiates by His operation? Forasmuch as in beginning He works in us that we may have the will, and in perfecting works with us when we have the will… He operates, therefore, without us, in order that we may will; but when we will, and so will that we may act, He co-operates with us. We can, however, ourselves do nothing to effect good works of piety without Him either working that we may will, or co-working when we will” (, Ch. 33On Grace and Free Will).
Because our ability to choose to cooperate with God’s grace is “itself an effect of grace” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification), the cooperative aspect depends on the operative and it is therefore correct to say that we are saved by grace alone.
“[W]ho causes that men should be good save Him who said, ‘And I will visit them to make them good?’ And who said ‘I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them?’ Are ye thus not yet awake? Do ye not yet hear, ‘I will cause you to walk’, ‘I will make you to observe’, lastly, ‘I will make you to do’? What! Are you still puffing yourselves up? We indeed walk, it is true; we observe; we do; but He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy preventing us” (, Bk. 4, Ch. 15Against Two Letters of the Pelagians).
“It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God’s grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace; this therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is its reward—grace is for grace” (, Ch. 20On Grace and Free Will).
The peace of our Lord be with you!
Your brother in the LORD,
Pete
I’ve read those chapters from Augustine, thank you. My wife calls me Augnut.
Augustine said that for Paul’s call “from heaven and his conversion by that great and most effectual call, God’s grace was alone.” But after this gift of operative grace, “neither was it the grace of God alone, nor was it he himself alone, but it was the grace of God with him.” This is cooperative grace. Paul, “in order to exhibit also his free will, … added in the next clause, ‘And His grace within me was not in vain, but I have laboured more abundantly than they all’ (1 Corinthians 15:10). This free will of man he appeals to in the case of others also, as when he says to them, ‘We beseech you that ye receive not the grace of God in vain’ (2 Corinthians 6:1)” (, Ch. 12On Grace and Free Will). Operating grace establishes us in cooperation with God: “in one of these cases He co-operates with man as the agent, in the other He does it alone” (, Bk. 2, Ch. 20Against Two Letters of the Pelagians).
“[W]ho was it that had begun to give [Peter] his love, however small, but He who prepares the will, and perfects by His co-operation what He initiates by His operation? Forasmuch as in beginning He works in us that we may have the will, and in perfecting works with us when we have the will… He operates, therefore, without us, in order that we may will; but when we will, and so will that we may act, He co-operates with us. We can, however, ourselves do nothing to effect good works of piety without Him either working that we may will, or co-working when we will” (, Ch. 33On Grace and Free Will).
Because our ability to choose to cooperate with God’s grace is “itself an effect of grace” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification), the cooperative aspect depends on the operative and it is therefore correct to say that we are saved by grace alone.
“[W]ho causes that men should be good save Him who said, ‘And I will visit them to make them good?’ And who said ‘I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them?’ Are ye thus not yet awake? Do ye not yet hear, ‘I will cause you to walk’, ‘I will make you to observe’, lastly, ‘I will make you to do’? What! Are you still puffing yourselves up? We indeed walk, it is true; we observe; we do; but He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy preventing us” (, Bk. 4, Ch. 15Against Two Letters of the Pelagians).
“It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God’s grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace; this therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is its reward—grace is for grace” (, Ch. 20On Grace and Free Will).
The peace of our Lord be with you!
Your brother in the LORD,
Pete
J
July_James
Guest
Dear De Maria
It appears as if everything you believe and stand for is built on the original platform of believing
It appears as if everything you believe and stand for is built on the original platform of believing
- That the Catholic Church as an organization is the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ
And - That Jesus wanted to built His Church on a PERSON, namely Peter, rather than on a spesific Truth which the Holy Spirit revealed to Peter.
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
Can you cite the source for that statistic?
OK, I know you can’t. But even if I stipulate this is true, there is still 0.01% of people who are saved apart from Faith. I’m sorry to point this out, but doctrine applies to EVERYONE. If it applies to 0.01% (or 0.00000000000001%) then it applies to EVERYONE. And, indeed, I could invade the hospital room of an unconscious, terminally ill elderly atheist patient and Baptize him myself. If he died a minute later, he would be saved. It would be EXTREMELY illicit, but it would be absolutely valid (assuming I used the proper matter and form). It does not matter if this person never had an iota of faith, and lived a life of absolute debauchery (ie, absolutely no faith and absolutely no charitable works whatsoever). This person would be saved. This is doctrine.
That’s because we are saved by Grace alone. It’s not just 0.01% of us, it is 100% of us.
C
Cruxis117
Guest
Well, considering that it’s impossible, let me try to go about showing you how so.
Starting with your second point, because it would address the first point as well, I must ask you, where does the word Peter come from?
It comes from Greek, you may have known that. You may also know that in Greek, it means Rock.
Now, let’s check out Scripture:
15
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
**Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
So, you think that you are somehow able to prove that Peter was not the rock that Christ would build his Church. Which would go against Scripture.
Peter is the rock (that’s why he is called Peter, it means “rock”) and Christ build his Church upon this rock
Now that we have established that this point is proven to be correct, we show that yes, the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ our Lord founded. Therefore, you are mistaken. Peace be with you
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
God bless
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
Greetings brother!
Although it is true that we are saved by grace alone, we do not want to separate saving grace from “faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6) because “without faith it is impossible to please” God (Hebrews 11:6), and “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil” (2 Corinthians 5:10). And this is true even for infants:
“We know that even children will receive either good or evil according to what they have done in the body. For they have done it, not by themselves but through these who answer for them when they are said to renounce the Devil and to believe in God. For this reason they are counted in the number of the faithful, as being referred to in the statement of the Lord when He said: ‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.’ Therefore, those who do not receive this sacrament are subject to what follows: 'But he that believeth not shall be condemned’ (Mark 16:16). Consequently, even those, as I said, who die at that tender age are judged according to what they have done in the body, that is, in the time they have been in the body, when they believed or did not believe through the mouths and hearts of those who carried them, when they were baptized or were not baptized, when they ate the flesh of Christ or did not eat it, when they drank His Blood or did not drink it ─ according to these things which they have done in the body” (Letter 217).
We have to remember that God pours faith, hope, and love into our hearts when we are baptized. And this is true even of infants, although it is held as a habit in latency due to their inability to manifest these virtues because of the impediments of their body.
But it is all of grace! For, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Corinthians 15:10). And I have nothing that I did not receive (cf. 1 Corinthians 4:7). All glory to God!
Unfortunately, I think this is all the time I have for this thread. I hope that everyone will continue this discussion in love and in a way that magnifies the great mercy of God in our Savior’s love towards us! Let us win our brothers and sisters to the Church of Jesus Christ for the sake of their salvation by how much love we show them.
In the grace of Christ,
Pete
S
sambos671
Guest
He was clear earlier when he said a baptized child has no faith of their own nor have they demonstrated any works. Thus they are saved by Grace. Period. As for Faith and works they are not necissarily two different things. If Faith is discussed works is but an aspect of Faith. If it is works which is discussed absent of faith it is nothing but activity and has no saving aspect at all.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
No, not really. I don’t see how I could be more specific.
Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 846-848.
If you don’t have your own copy of the Catechism, or can’t find it by your self online, here’s a link to the paragraphs I’m referring to: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III
Do you really need something more specific?
D
diggerdomer
Guest
The faith of the parents is important, but not, in the end, salvific. Regardless of the faith of the parents, an infant baptized in the Catholic Church receives all the graces of baptism. The valid Sacrament does not depend on the faith of the parents.
A
Axion
Guest
It is POSSIBLE for baptised infantts to be saved by grace. Yes. This is the mercy of God. God may choose to save anyone by Grace. But that does NOT mean that all or normal salvation is by Grace alone. The salvation of the aware human involves free co-operaation with Grace.
Therefore it is NOT Grace Alone - unless you subscribe to the (calvinist) notion that God “willed” their sin, and not anothers.
As De Maria says, being in a “State of Grace” is a COMPLETELY different thing from the notion of “Salvation by Grace Alone.”
Salvation by Grace **Alone **means that humans have NO effective (name removed by moderator)ut into whether they accept God or not. EVERYTHING is done by God. In other words, He chooses who will receive saving Grace and who will not. He gives some enough grace to persist in Faith and others not. That is a teaching condemned many times by the Church, because it denies free will, and, in effect, makes God the unjust author of sin.
God gives Grace for salvation, but He offers it to EVERYONE. Jesus died for ALL - not just a certain few. It s up to us (with His help) to accept that Grace and to REMAIN in it. That is what being in a State of Grace means.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Which of those speaks of infant Baptism? Let me remind you of your reply:
Code:
Quote:
Originally Posted by **De Maria** [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7201178#post7201178)
*I know it is doctrine. But it is a special case. But even Baptized infants are not saved by grace alone. They are saved by the faith of their parents. If their parents did not take them to be baptized, they would not be saved.*This is not in accordance with Catholic teaching.
See the Catechism of the Catholic Church para 846-848 e.g.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Logic.
Who?
No, he wouldn’t.
Show me the doctrine.
No we are not. We are saved by grace through faith expressed in works of love.
You would have had a better chance if you had said “the terminally ill infant of a person who had lived a life of absolute debauchery with absolutely no faith.” But then, why would YOU have baptized the child? Because of YOUR FAITH. Therefore, faith is necessary for the Sacrament of Faith to be effected and effective!
THAT IS DOCTRINE!
D
De_Maria
Guest
Not according to Catholic doctrine.
Let me give you an example of your error. In the case of the prayer, “all glory to God!” That is correctly stated. But a Protestant would say, “all glory to God ALONE!” That would be incorrect because God shares His glory with the Saints especially with Mary. And with each and every Parent and with each and every child, because we love one another and LOVE is His Glory.
Protestants love to put the word “alone” behind things, thinking that they are somehow making them better. But what they are doing is corrupting the Word of God. The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by grace ALONE. And if you have adopted this idea because of your love for St. Augustine, then I think St. Augustine would be the first to tell you,
1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? Was (Augustine) then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of (Augustine)?
Amen!
And you as well,
Sincerely,
De Maria
- Status