Catholics saved by Grace alone?

[De_Maria]

The faith of the parents is important, but not, in the end, salvific. Regardless of the faith of the parents, an infant baptized in the Catholic Church receives all the graces of baptism. The valid Sacrament does not depend on the faith of the parents.

That is true. But I said parents because they are the ones who normally bring the child to Baptism.

However, a child can’t come to Baptism on his own. Someone with faith in Christ must seek that Baptism for the child. Therefore, faith precedes the grace of Baptism. No matter who it is.

 

[De_Maria]

Therefore it is NOT Grace Alone - unless you subscribe to the (calvinist) notion that God “willed” their sin, and not anothers.

Excellent point! I missed that one.

Thanks for your contribution!

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

He was clear earlier when he said a baptized child has no faith of their own nor have they demonstrated any works.

Yes, but we’ve gotten past that point. The point I am making is that someone of faith must:

1. present the child to be baptized,
2. baptize the child or,
3. request the child be baptized.

Therefore, faith precedes the Sacrament.

Thus they are saved by Grace. Period.

We are all saved by grace. But not by grace “alone”.

As for Faith and works they are not necissarily two different things. If Faith is discussed works is but an aspect of Faith. If it is works which is discussed absent of faith it is nothing but activity and has no saving aspect at all.

Agreed. In effect, works are an expression of our faith. That is why, faith without works is dead.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Thanks, De Maria.

I’ve read those chapters from Augustine, thank you. My wife calls me Augnut.

Augustine said that for Paul’s call “from heaven and his conversion by that great and most effectual call, God’s grace was alone.” But after this gift of operative grace, “neither was it the grace of God alone, nor was it he himself alone, but it was the grace of God with him.” This is cooperative grace. …

Based upon this, I conclude that we agree.

The peace of our Lord be with you!

 

[De_Maria]

Dear De Maria

It appears as if everything you believe and stand for is built on the original platform of believing

1. That the Catholic Church as an organization is the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ
   And
2. That Jesus wanted to built His Church on a PERSON, namely Peter, rather than on a spesific Truth which the Holy Spirit revealed to Peter.

Your second premise is false. Jesus built His Church upon Peter BECAUSE of the specific Truth which the Holy Spirit revealed to Peter.

My question to you is this - if anybody could show to you through Scripture, that these fundamental two building blocks on which your entire belief system is built, is a lie, would you be open to consider it?

Of course. But that sword cuts both ways. Before we begin our study of Scripture to prove these fundamentals let me ask you a couple of questions.

You believe in:

1. the authority of Scripture alone.
2. the idea that one is justified and saved by Faith alone.

So, my question to you is this - if anybody could show to you through Scripture, that these fundamental two building blocks on which your entire belief system is built, is a lie, would you be open to consider it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[July_James]

“If when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” Romans 5:10

I am not saved by believing - I simply realize I am saved by believing. And it is not repentence that saves me - repentance is only the sign that I realize what God has done through Jesus Christ.

The danger here is putting the emphasis on the effort, instead of the cause.

Is it my obedience, consecration, and dedication that makes me right with God? It is never that! I am made right with God because, prior to all of that, Christ died.

When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals, the miraculous atonement by the Cross of Christ instantly places me into a right relationship with God. And as a result of the supernatural miracle of God’s grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, or because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done.

Sinful men and woman can be changed into new creations, not through their repentance or their belief, but through the wonderful work of God in Christ Jesus which preceded all of our experience (see 2 Cor 5:17-19).

“It is finished” John 19:30

• Extracts from Oswald Chambers, My utmost for His highest

 

[July_James]

Dear De Maria

If you are brave, you may prayerfully read through the following.

You don’t need to reply to me even, discuss it with Jesus, and ask Him for Truth.

He is faithful.

users.stargate.net/~ejt/peter.htm

In Christ,
July James

 

[DavidFilmer]

Therefore, faith is necessary for the Sacrament of Faith to be effected and effective! THAT IS DOCTRINE!

OK, that is very new doctrine. I was not aware that the Church had added a sixth criteria to the validity of a Sacrament. Last I heard, a Sacrament (any Sacrament) was valid if it had (only) five valid components: minister, intent, substance, recipient, and form. Faith (of anyone) was not on that list. You have added a sixth requirement and stipulated that it is DOCTRINE, but I was not aware that the Church had very recently promulgated this DOCTRINE. Maybe you would be so kind as to provide a citation that says that faith (of either the recipient or the minister) is a *required *component of ANY sacrament.

 

[sambos671]

Yes, but we’ve gotten past that point. The point I am making is that someone of faith must:

1. present the child to be baptized,
2. baptize the child or,
3. request the child be baptized.

Therefore, faith precedes the Sacrament.

Really, this is irrelevant because its not the child who has the faith nor is the Child deciding to be baptized (if you heard some they don’t even want that wet stuff on them). And the child is not making the request. All of this is done by an agency apart from the child. Thus Grace in this case stands alone for the baptized child.

We are all saved by grace. But not by grace “alone”.

Depends on how you define grace now doesn’t it. Faith is an out pouring of Grace. Works are also an out pouring of Grace. In the sense that God is Love God is also Grace. Thus to say Grace alone would not be out of line.

Agreed. In effect, works are an expression of our faith. That is why, faith without works is dead.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Good we agree on this point.

 

[diggerdomer]

Which of those speaks of infant Baptism? Let me remind you of your reply:

Quote:
 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by **De Maria** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7201178#post7201178) 				
			*I know it is doctrine.  But it is a  special case.  But even Baptized infants are not saved by grace alone.   They are saved by the faith of their parents.  If their parents did not  take them to be baptized, they would not be saved.*

You replied:
This is not in accordance with Catholic teaching.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church para 846-848 e.g.

I’m simply saying that Baptism is salvific, by the Sacrament itself. It does not depend on the faith of the parents.

In other words…are you suggesting that if the faith of the parents is somehow lacking, an infant baptized in the Catholic Church is not really baptized? If so, please provide Church teaching to support such a claim. Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

That is true. But I said parents because they are the ones who normally bring the child to Baptism.

However, a child can’t come to Baptism on his own. Someone with faith in Christ must seek that Baptism for the child. Therefore, faith precedes the grace of Baptism. No matter who it is.

Except in the extreme case of baptism in danger of death.

Yes or no?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Except in the extreme case of baptism in danger of death.
Yes or no?

I’ll answer that question, as the OP seems to have quit the field.

There is no “extreme” case in which Baptism is valid. ANY Baptism is valid if it has the five basic components of any Sacrament. In the case of Baptism, these five components are:

• Valid recipient (in this case, any unbaptized person)
• Valid minister (in the case, any person, regardless of belief or faith. This person does not even need to be Baptized him/her self).
• Valid matter (in this case, clear water)
• Valid intent of the minister (“to do what the Catholic Church does,” even if the minister has absolutely no idea what that is).
• Valid form (in this case, the Trinitarian form - “I Baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit” while applying clear water to the head).

In the case of a person in danger of death, a First Responder or Emergency Room doctor or nurse may conditionally Baptize a patient. Such a Baptism may be illicit under Canon Law, but it is perfectly valid.

However, faith is absolutely not required. A Catholic Hospital might institute a policy to conditionally Baptize every infant who was admitted with a life-threatening condition. A Muslim nurse working at a Catholic hospital (and who has an honest intent to uphold the expectations of her employer) might institute this policy upon an infant patient who was the son/daughter of Muslim parents, even against their explicit will (they might be screaming in protest as their Muslim child was Baptized against their will by a Muslim nurse fulfilling the expectations of her Christian employer). But - guess what - this is still a perfectly valid (though HIGHLY illicit) Baptism. If the child died an hour later, the child would be saved. This is doctrine.

This is what *de Maria *does not understand. Grace alone saved this child. Grace alone saves us all.

 

[De_Maria]

Really, this is irrelevant because its not the child who has the faith nor is the Child deciding to be baptized (if you heard some they don’t even want that wet stuff on them). And the child is not making the request. All of this is done by an agency apart from the child. Thus Grace in this case stands alone for the baptized child.

If it were grace alone, the child would not need to be brought in for Baptism. But the “agency” which you mentioned, must have the faith to bring the child in to be Baptized. Therefore, faith must precede baptism.

Depends on how you define grace now doesn’t it. Faith is an out pouring of Grace.

God defines faith. And faith is the first grace which one receives.

Works are also an out pouring of Grace.

Works in obedience to the commands of God are an expression of faith.

In the sense that God is Love God is also Grace.

God is not grace. Grace is the good which God shares with us.

Thus to say Grace alone would not be out of line.

It would be totally out of line with Catholic Teaching. Because the Church takes into account the exercise of our WILL.

The Church makes a distinction between the concept of “all is grace” and “grace alone”. Once we have engaged our will in order to cooperate with God’s grace, it is no longer called God’s grace alone. But grace through faith and works.

Good we agree on this point.

Good, then inadvertently you have shot down the idea of Grace alone, because faith is a grace which is expressed by works by our obedience when we, by an act of will, submit to God’s authority.

The idea of faith and works is opposed to the idea of grace alone. Ask any Protestant.

 

[De_Maria]

No, not really. I don’t see how I could be more specific.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 846-848.

If you don’t have your own copy of the Catechism, or can’t find it by your self online, here’s a link to the paragraphs I’m referring to: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III

Do you really need something more specific?

Yes. I don’t see anything in those paragraphs about infant Baptism.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m simply saying that Baptism is salvific, by the Sacrament itself. It does not depend on the faith of the parents.

In other words…are you suggesting that if the faith of the parents is somehow lacking, an infant baptized in the Catholic Church is not really baptized? If so, please provide Church teaching to support such a claim. Thanks.

1. No, I’m using parents as an example because 99% of the time, it is parents who bring their children to be baptized.
2. However, infants do not bring themselves to be baptized.
3. Someone must bring them and that person must be a faithful or
4. In case of an emergency, a person who is not of the faith may baptize according to the intention of the Church. BUT that person will be carrying out the instructions of a faithful person who desires the child be baptized and who will take care that the child be raised in the faith.

This is the intention of the Church. The Church does not intend that a pagan child be baptized Christian and then raised pagan.

Therefore, again, faith precedes Baptism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

OK, that is very new doctrine. I was not aware that the Church had added a sixth criteria to the validity of a Sacrament.

No, it isn’t the newest doctrine. It is the most fundamental doctrine. The form and matter were added later by the Church. Christ is only recorded as having said:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. the visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

It goes without saying that one either believes or is being brought by a believer or is being baptized by the agent of a believer.

1123 "The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the Body of Christ and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen, and express it. That is why they are called 'sacraments of faith.’"44

Last I heard, a Sacrament (any Sacrament) was valid if it had (only) five valid components: minister, intent, substance, recipient, and form.

That is correct. But a recipient will not be a valid recipient unless he is properly disposed. That proper disposition is faith. And if the recipient is a child, then whomever brings him to be baptized is the faithful party.

Faith (of anyone) was not on that list.

Because it goes without saying. Why would anyone who does not believe want to be baptized? Why would anyone who doesn’t believe want their infant to be baptized?

You have added a sixth requirement and stipulated that it is DOCTRINE,

No. I haven’t.

but I was not aware that the Church had very recently promulgated this DOCTRINE. Maybe you would be so kind as to provide a citation that says that faith (of either the recipient or the minister) is a *required *component of ANY sacrament.

See above. It is a required component of EVERY sacrament.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

The faith of the parents is important, but not, in the end, salvific.

Yes, it is. All we need to do is look at Scripture where many children were "saved’ from death and illness by the action of Christ as a result of the faith of their parents:
Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answering, said to her: O woman, great is thy faith: be it done to thee as thou wilt: and her daughter was cured from that hour.

In the Sacrament of Baptism, it is we, the parents, who are asking Jesus to cure our child of Original Sin.

Regardless of the faith of the parents, an infant baptized in the Catholic Church receives all the graces of baptism. The valid Sacrament does not depend on the faith of the parents.

If the parents did not have any faith, the child would not be baptized at all. A child will not be baptized against the will of his parents or legal guardians.

I don’t know how much authority this Fisheater’s reference carries. But I agree with the message. It is from an instruction on the Rite of Baptism:
***Private Baptism: **
An emergency, bare-essentials baptism which can be performed anywhere, by anyone – Catholic, pagan, Jew, Protestant – who uses the proper matter and form and intends to do what the Church does when She baptizes. Because of that last condition, Baptism by heretics or apostates should always be followed by a conditional Baptism (see below). **Note that Baptism must only be administered to those who request it; Baptism must never, ever be against the will of the person to be baptized, or his parents’ will if he is a child. **Also, rest assured that those who, with contrite hearts, have expressed a true desire for Baptism and have vowed to receive the Sacrament, but die before receiving it are baptized “by desire.” In any case, a person baptized in a private Baptism should participate in the Solemn Rite of Baptism if and when he is able. *
fisheaters.com/baptism2.html

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

God bless

**CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
**It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.
Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.

CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION
**
Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism**;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
Of this disposition it is written:
He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him;[24] and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee;[25] and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin;[26] and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;[27] and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you;[28] finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.[29]

May God bless you as well!

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes. I don’t see anything in those paragraphs about infant Baptism.

The point is, you don’t see anything in those paragraphs about people being saved by the faith of their parents (which you claimed).

 

[diggerdomer]

I
This is what *de Maria *does not understand. Grace alone saved this child. Grace alone saves us all.

Yes