Catholics should stay calm, Pope Francis is not pressing for general Protestant admission to Communion [CH-UK]
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J
Justin_Swanton
Guest
Reading Pope Francis’ reply with care, he is obviously not pressing for general Protestant admission to Communion. If he did he would have told the Lutheran woman: “permission granted, go up to the Communion rail.”
What he does in his answer is neither categorically forbid or allow Communion. Rather, he cites the reasons why Lutherans and other Protestants can’t receive Communion - and then rules them out of court, leaving the Lutheran woman with no good reason for ***not *receiving Communion. She must then draw her own conclusions. A wink is as good as a nod.Question: My name is Anke de Bernardinis and, like many people in our community, I’m married to an Italian, who is a Roman Catholic Christian. We’ve lived happily together for many years, sharing joys and sorrows. And so we greatly regret being divided in faith and not being able to participate in the Lord’s Supper together. What can we do to achieve, finally, communion on this point?
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Pope Francis: The question on sharing the Lord’s Supper isn’t easy for me to respond to, above all in front of a theologian like Cardinal Kasper! I’m scared!
I think of how the Lord told us when he gave us this command to “do this in memory of me,” and when we share the Lord’s Supper, we recall and we imitate the same as the Lord. And there will be the Lord’s Supper, there will be the eternal banquet in the new Jerusalem, but that will be the last one. In the meantime, I ask myself — and don’t know how to respond — what you’re asking me, I ask myself the question. To share the Lord’s banquet: is it the goal of the path or is it the viaticum [provisions] for walking together? I leave that question to the theologians and those who understand.
It’s true that in a certain sense, to share means there aren’t differences between us, that we have the same doctrine – underscoring that word, a difficult word to understand — but I ask myself: but don’t we have the same Baptism?* If we have the same Baptism, shouldn’t we be walking together?*** You’re a witness also of a profound journey, a journey of marriage: a journey really of the family and human love and of*** a shared faith***, no? We have the same Baptism.
When you feel yourself to be a sinner – and I feel more of a sinner – when your husband feels a sinner, you go to the Lord and ask forgiveness; your husband does the same and also goes to the priest and asks absolution. I’m healed to keep alive the Baptism. When you pray together, that Baptism grows, becomes stronger. When you teach your kids who Jesus is, why Jesus came, what Jesus did for us, you’re doing the same thing, whether in the Lutheran language or the Catholic one, but it’s the same. The question: and the [Lord’s] Supper? There are questions that, only if one is sincere with oneself and with the little theological light one has, must be responded to on one’s own. See for yourself. This is my body. This is my blood. Do it in remembrance of me – this is a viaticum that helps us to journey on.
I once had a great friendship with an Episcopalian bishop who went a little wrong – he was 48 years old, married, two children. This was a discomfort to him – a Catholic wife, Catholic children, him a bishop. He accompanied his wife and children to Mass on Sunday, and then went to worship with his community. It was a step of participation in the Lord’s Supper. Then he went forward, the Lord called him, a just man. To your question, I can only respond with a question: what can I do with my husband, because the Lord’s Supper accompanies me on my path?
It’s a problem each must answer, but a pastor-friend once told me: “We believe that the Lord is present there, he is present. You all believe that the Lord is present. And so what’s the difference?” — “Eh, there are explanations, interpretations.” Life is bigger than explanations and interpretations. Always refer back to your baptism. “One faith, one baptism, one Lord.” This is what Paul tells us, and then take the consequences from there. I wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence. One baptism, one Lord, one faith. Talk to the Lord and then go forward. I don’t dare to say anything more.
What he does in his answer is neither categorically forbid or allow Communion. Rather, he cites the reasons why Lutherans and other Protestants can’t receive Communion - and then rules them out of court, leaving the Lutheran woman with no good reason for ***not *receiving Communion. She must then draw her own conclusions. A wink is as good as a nod.Question: My name is Anke de Bernardinis and, like many people in our community, I’m married to an Italian, who is a Roman Catholic Christian. We’ve lived happily together for many years, sharing joys and sorrows. And so we greatly regret being divided in faith and not being able to participate in the Lord’s Supper together. What can we do to achieve, finally, communion on this point?
**
Pope Francis: The question on sharing the Lord’s Supper isn’t easy for me to respond to, above all in front of a theologian like Cardinal Kasper! I’m scared!
I think of how the Lord told us when he gave us this command to “do this in memory of me,” and when we share the Lord’s Supper, we recall and we imitate the same as the Lord. And there will be the Lord’s Supper, there will be the eternal banquet in the new Jerusalem, but that will be the last one. In the meantime, I ask myself — and don’t know how to respond — what you’re asking me, I ask myself the question. To share the Lord’s banquet: is it the goal of the path or is it the viaticum [provisions] for walking together? I leave that question to the theologians and those who understand.
It’s true that in a certain sense, to share means there aren’t differences between us, that we have the same doctrine – underscoring that word, a difficult word to understand — but I ask myself: but don’t we have the same Baptism?* If we have the same Baptism, shouldn’t we be walking together?*** You’re a witness also of a profound journey, a journey of marriage: a journey really of the family and human love and of*** a shared faith***, no? We have the same Baptism.
When you feel yourself to be a sinner – and I feel more of a sinner – when your husband feels a sinner, you go to the Lord and ask forgiveness; your husband does the same and also goes to the priest and asks absolution. I’m healed to keep alive the Baptism. When you pray together, that Baptism grows, becomes stronger. When you teach your kids who Jesus is, why Jesus came, what Jesus did for us, you’re doing the same thing, whether in the Lutheran language or the Catholic one, but it’s the same. The question: and the [Lord’s] Supper? There are questions that, only if one is sincere with oneself and with the little theological light one has, must be responded to on one’s own. See for yourself. This is my body. This is my blood. Do it in remembrance of me – this is a viaticum that helps us to journey on.
I once had a great friendship with an Episcopalian bishop who went a little wrong – he was 48 years old, married, two children. This was a discomfort to him – a Catholic wife, Catholic children, him a bishop. He accompanied his wife and children to Mass on Sunday, and then went to worship with his community. It was a step of participation in the Lord’s Supper. Then he went forward, the Lord called him, a just man. To your question, I can only respond with a question: what can I do with my husband, because the Lord’s Supper accompanies me on my path?
It’s a problem each must answer, but a pastor-friend once told me: “We believe that the Lord is present there, he is present. You all believe that the Lord is present. And so what’s the difference?” — “Eh, there are explanations, interpretations.” Life is bigger than explanations and interpretations. Always refer back to your baptism. “One faith, one baptism, one Lord.” This is what Paul tells us, and then take the consequences from there. I wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence. One baptism, one Lord, one faith. Talk to the Lord and then go forward. I don’t dare to say anything more.
Or can simply be Pope and say no.
Or if he wants to multiply words, as he appears to tend to do, he could say:
You are not Catholic, so you cannot receive Communion.
Please pray for the reunion of all Christians so that the Lord’s prayer that all may be one will be answered.
And, of course, if you would become Catholic, we will joyfully welcome you home.
End of story.
Saying no is easily in the top ten duties of the job.
I’m really sorry to say this, but I am becoming increasingly weary of this pontificate. This papacy is punctuated by many words that, to the end say nothing.
Catholic publications don’t have to jump into “damage control” mode whenever the Pope says something, well, odd. He needs to be accountable for what he says.
Or if he wants to multiply words, as he appears to tend to do, he could say:
You are not Catholic, so you cannot receive Communion.
Please pray for the reunion of all Christians so that the Lord’s prayer that all may be one will be answered.
And, of course, if you would become Catholic, we will joyfully welcome you home.
End of story.
Saying no is easily in the top ten duties of the job.
I’m really sorry to say this, but I am becoming increasingly weary of this pontificate. This papacy is punctuated by many words that, to the end say nothing.
Catholic publications don’t have to jump into “damage control” mode whenever the Pope says something, well, odd. He needs to be accountable for what he says.
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
so is Pope Francis himself not convinced…I am more confused.
A
ARSpade
Guest
Yeah.
“Talk to the Lord and then go forward.”
The Pope and some Bishops seem to want to leave a lot of stuff up to the general conscience and feelings of the people.
The Pope says war is bad. Well, I say that I talked to the Lord and looked into my conscience and that all said that war is awesome. I also talked to the Lord and he said to burn all those tires in my backyard because trees are lame.
There’s a quote from Evelyn Waugh that said, “You have no idea how much nastier I would be if I was not a Catholic. Without supernatural aid I would hardly be a human being.”
Well, it’s kinda like we’re hearing now that the supernatural aid is whatever you want it to be.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
Where did you learn that the conscience is such a dangerous, unreliable thing? Did someone in your Catholic formation teach you that directly or is it just something you fear and loathe from within yourself?
A
ARSpade
Guest
Oh, wherever did I say that?
I’m merely saying, I use the Church as a guide for my actions. I don’t need the Church to tell me when I’m right, I need it to tell me when I’m wrong but think I’m right. Now, if the Church feels that it’s no longer her responsibility to guide me and I should just do whatever I think is right, well, I suppose that’s fine too.
Z
zz912
Guest
That’s the thing. We don’t share the same faith. Lutherans depart from the faith on several fundamental areas. They share SOME of the faith. The Pope even notes we don’t share the same doctrines. Well the doctrines define the faith.
Someone reading this can get the impression that doctrine doesn’t matter, since we still have a “shared faith”.
Clarity and directness. How I long for it. Shepherds are supposed to guide the sheep, not let sheep make up their own mind where to go.
J
J_Peterson
Guest
That sounds backwards to me. I think it’s more accurate to say that our faith defines our doctrines.
What about Christianity is clear and direct? Jesus hardly ever gave a clear answer to the public and even his explanations to the apostles were misunderstood. We still, after 2000 years, debate the meaning of His words and Scripture in general. Even the command to love one another is mysterious and hard to grasp and even harder to follow. Perhaps in Heaven things will be clearer but if I remember my Aquinas, God will still be incomprehensible to us and we will never understand Him as He truly is.
Personally I find the popes style to be refreshing. He is a true mystic in my opinion.
Z
zz912
Guest
I’ve found very little that isn’t.
Is the Eucharist the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, yes or no? Yes. (pretty clear to me).
Does baptism remit all sin? Yes. (simple again).
Do priests need apostolic authority handed on by ordination by a valid bishop? Yes (again, simple and clear).
I could go on and on.
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
yes. clarity and directness is what I long for too.
T
Thomas_White
Guest
I don’t think so.
“Always refer back to your baptism. ‘One baptism, one faith, one Lord.’ This is what Paul tells us, and then take the consequences from there. I wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence. One baptism, one Lord, one faith. Talk to the Lord and then go forward.”
Sometimes what is said is not heard when one does not want to hear it. The decision is an individual judgment of conscience, and I believe what Pope Francis is saying is that it is not a judgment he would dare to make for another person.
G
graciew
Guest
Why would there be a dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics then,Thomas?
I agree he cannot make a judgement for another person, he also knows that at present this communion cannot be received ,he also said take the consequences. Life is bigger than explanations and interpretations,life has to be lived. Including the consequences of our decisions.
What do you think?
T
Thomas_White
Guest
Yes, there is a continuing dialogue about ecumenism, and from the link you provided it looks like it is very complex and not something Pope Francis would ever try to answer in that setting. So, it seems to me he directed his answer instead to the individual conscience of the person who asked the question and who seemed to want to know what to do now.
I don’t think his comment about the presence of Cardinal Kasper was insignificant. Though Pope Francis is the pope, I believe he was recognizing the importance of theologians. This ‘open door’ is very significant since it has on some level been silenced. He clearly wants dialogue and discussion, and I believe he intentionally avoids speaking in any definitive way–until he does. There is certain to be disagrement and even contention in the meantime, and I think he fears it not. The thing is to try to understand the disagrement. It is real, I’m sure, and really ought to be discussed.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
The mysteries are my comfort zone. Mercy and grace make no sense at all. Unconditional love and forgiveness. Plenary indulgences… insane!! Giving better than receiving… are you kidding!! Faustina says that God allows us to walk through the door of mercy and if we reject that we will have to walk through the door of justice. Hang on… shouldn’t we all have to pay our debts first!!! Shouldn’t I be as ticked off as the Elder brother about that since I’ve followed the rules my whole life!!!
The mysteries of the Lord are definitely what gives me faith, hope and charity for others.
C
clem456
Guest
Conscience is the voice of God speaking in the individual.
Individuals are frequently hard of hearing, which makes the individual frequently unreliable.
God is God, we are not. Though God speaks to us in conscience, the reliability of our conscience is not on a par with God’s reliability.
Not even close.
Conscience involves listening, discovery, engagement, obedience.
Sometimes we merely hear ourselves speaking, as we like, as we will.
Prudence is a virtue. A virtue is something which requires habitual practice and formation to gain in consistency. It requires deference and obedience to God. It requires self awareness and self examination in God’s light, perhaps a healthy skepticism concerning one’s own abilities to hear.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
What do you think about using ones conscience? Do you think we should not use our conscience in decision making until we are fully virtuous and godlike? Or do you hear the Church as saying that we must use our conscience in decision making even if we are not fully virtuous and knowledgeable about everything?
T
Thomas_White
Guest
From the time we made our First Communion at the age of six, we were taught to listen to our conscience and we would know whether we ought receive Communion or to first visit the Confessional. And we were trusted at the age of six by members of a religious order to receive Communion on this basis. One would think an adult could do as well.
C
clem456
Guest
Nope. That’s not what I said. Where do you infer that I do not think we should act in accordance with our conscience?
The issue was, the reliability of conscience, especially separated from The One who speaks in it.
Just so we don’t have confusion, here is my post verbatim:
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