Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

[Karin]

Someone once said not to cast pearls before swine.

yes that would of been Christ…
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6

 

[boppaid]

Boppaid,

Is this because the Baptist services are easily understood and fun to participate in (clapping and singing)? If not, then what does a Baptist service do to give you the feeling that God is present more than a Catholic Mass?

No. The service I go to is nice in some of those aspects (no clapping, though), but that’s not it. First, I see Christ in the scripture. We are constantly reading scripture. I never knew my Bible as well as I do now that I’ve begun attending this Chruch. Of course, that was my own fault, before, but it’s not as “in your face” in the CC in my experience as it is in this other Church. I realize that the mass reads through the entire Bible in 3 years’ time (or something like that), but it’s snippets here and snippets there. Although I’ve 'heard" the entire bible in Catholic service, I didn’t know it. Of course, it could be argued that that’s what specific Bible Study is for. However, I’ve never been to a Catholic Bible Study that is as informative and enlightening as the services I’ve attended. Maybe it’s this specific Pastor, I don’t know.

Additionally it’s also because I feel closer to Christ than I ever did before. My understanding of Catholicism is that it is very legalistic (although members on this board have been helping me with that). I get so entangled with allt he “rules” of Catholicism that I totally lose sight of Christ. The rules become my focus, rather than Him. Additionally, I always fail in keeping the Church’s rules (as does everyone, we’re all sinners), but I get so distraught that I feel I’m never “good enough” and I give up. In the Protestant Church, there is more of an emphasis on living for christ and living WITH Christ, and not trying to make ourselves “good enough”. They accept we will never be good enough, and that’s why Christ died for us. That, truly, makes more sense to me. When I start thinking that way, I’m no longer afraid to approach God and make Him the center of my life.

ALso, they way protestants worship seems to be more inline with how they worshiped in the times of the apostles. I find this comforting. Of course, this alone is no reason to leave the Church. None of these things I’m discussing ALONE is reason to consider leaving the Church. However, when i look at them all together, I start to wonder.

Oh yeah, I just don’t believe in papal infallibility. I really don’t. I try and try and try. I’ve read countless Catholic articles and a few Catholic books. I’ve discussed this with my confessor. I’ve discussed it with other clergy as well. Even when I “force” myself to believe it (by telling myself that if the church says it’s so, it must be) I just dont.

Many of us seek camaraderie and companionship in “worship services” and that is fine but an understanding of what the Mass is and how the Eucharist is the True Presence of Jesus brings more joy and gratitude to me than being in the television audience of Oprah, or on a chat room for ‘Lost’ and 'Desperate Housewives."

I also have my doubts about the “true presence”. I’m still trying to know what I believe on that one.

Don’t confuse nice people with the Presence or you will surely be disappointed. There is no end to creative, personality based (see Haggard’s ‘church’ in Colorado) “worship services.”

But you do believe that christ lives within all his believers, do you not?

If you are speaking of God in Church then to a Catholic it means the Eucharist. Please clarify your points, thanks!

But to me, it doesn’t. Christ doesn’t just exist in the Eucharist. He exists in His people in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

Thanks for discussing this with me. I am so confused at what to do, or where I belong.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Thank you for the swift reply. I have a few questions, though.

Explain how Christ is in the scriptures at a Baptist service but not in a Catholic Mass please.

The True Presence is biblical. It is a command of Jesus (see the Gospels and St Paul) not a recommendation for consideration. If you do not believe it then all this gnashing of teeth is moot: you are not in communion with the Church.

Early Christian services was the Catholic Mass.Protestant services are a creature of the 16th century (did you read my prior postings?).I have no idea where you got your information, but if you want my sources I will be glad to pass them along to you.

There are scriptural readings every day (see a copy of the Magnificat) not “snippets.” Early ekklesiae (our ‘churches’) read from one or two scrolls or codices, usually an OT and a NT reading which dovetailed to what the sermon was about. There was no such thing as wholesale bible readings in the early Christian Church. The preaching was primarily oral, based upon tradition and scripture.

The Holy Spirit is *with *us (remember Pentacost?), Christ is not in us unless we receive Communion in a state of grace.

Please see my post on papal infallibility (look up my recent threads) then tell me what YOU mean by papal infallibility. I think you are greatly misinformed here.

Who are these ‘Catholic’ advisors (confessor, clergy) who have been giving you this weird information?

God bless you, I hope you find the Way.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The Holy Spirit is *with *us (remember Pentacost?), Christ is not in us unless we receive Communion in a state of grace.

Hi,
I was wondering if this is a teaching of the church or your opinion or your intrepretation? Im not trying to be combative just asking. So, does the church then believe the Holy Spirit goes in and out of us depending on how we receive communion? Your statement shocks me so I really just want to understand where you get your info. Maybe you can sight this belief in the catechism:thumbsup:

Thanks

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Child of God;

I was addressing a specific statement by boppaid as to the Eucharist. She does not believe in the True Presence (a Catholic dogma not subject to change) but professes to be a Catholic.

For your clarification, in the CCC section 1353 et seq., is a discussion on the epiclesis, where “the Church asks the Father to send his Holy Spirit (or the power of his blessing) on the bread and wine, so that by his power they may become the body and blood of Jesus Christ and so that those who take part in the Eucharist may be one body and one spirit…”

Further, “Because this bread and wine have been made Eucharist…no one may take part in it unless he believes that what we teach is true, has received baptism for the forgiveness of sins and new birth, and lives in keeping with what Christ taught.” (CCC 1355)

If this doesn’t help then you need to rephrase your question.

Pax Christi

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Child of God,

Sorry. I think I didn’t give you a direct answer: it is the Church’s teaching, not my private interpretation.

Does it still shock you?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Child of God,

Sorry. I think I didn’t give you a direct answer: it is the Church’s teaching, not my private interpretation.

Does it still shock you?

Hi,

Thank you. I think I need to rephrase my question. But I have to think about how to rephrase it and I have to go out so I will pose my question tom. I do understand the CC view on the Eucharist so I guess my question might be different. Ill get back to you.

P.S. I noticed you checked out my profile.

 

[tequilamac]

Hi,
I was wondering if this is a teaching of the church or your opinion or your intrepretation? Im not trying to be combative just asking. So, does the church then believe the Holy Spirit goes in and out of us depending on how we receive communion? Your statement shocks me so I really just want to understand where you get your info. Maybe you can sight this belief in the catechism:thumbsup:

Thanks

The Word proceeds from God actively not passively. It is not a dead thing or a symbolic memorial entity we receive within us. It is a living, active and current. When in a state of grace we can receive Communion with Christ, something that feeds and nourishes the soul and increases a person ability to act according to the Word each moment. If a person sins seriously and is not in a state of grace, the divine life is lost- this is why it used to be called “mortal” sin. Now called serious sin, but it becomes mortal if a person dies in that condition for the divine life of the soul “dies.” It is through this state of grace that the soul is animated, therefore the person is animated in regards to their ability to receive, understand, act upon and spread the Word of God.
Theoretically a person could receive Communion just once and as long as they never sinned at all, continue in a state of grace and continue acting in and through and with the Holy Spirit. However, sin clouds this for most people, whether it be venial sin such as becoming exasperated and letting a swear word slip which would be forgiven within the context of the next Mass. Serious sin- adultery- etc. requires attendance to the Confessional and absolution given and then the person must return to Communion. Communion is NOT required for salvation. It is a necessary help as it feeds that which was already given. It is only in the last century or two that Catholics started receiving Communion on a daily basis. sort of more food for more work kind of thing. Back in St. Margaret Mary Alcoque’s ( the person who brought us the devotion to the Sacred Heart) day, she had to beg for Communion more than once a week and gain permission from her Superior who had to gain permission from the Order’s superior. Prior to that even, the laity received Communion twice a year- Easter and Christmas. In certain centuries once at Easter. But to continue in life with or without regular communion requires strong souls who do not sin.Pretty rare.

For a better understanding of how the Word acts upon the soul of the receiver in Communion, the Summa Theologica gives a much better explanation than the Catechism itself which is really more of a compendium of Thomistic thought on the issue. It is short and straight to the point.
newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Child of God,

I look to profiles to address the person as an individual, not as an online handle.

It is difficult for me to print some of these internet identities with a straight face. Also, if I am unsure about who I am addressing, I hope to find some common ground or guidance in the profile link.

Jonathan

 

[rpp]

Child of God,

I look to profiles to address the person as an individual, not as an online handle.

It is difficult for me to print some of these internet identities with a straight face. Also, if I am unsure about who I am addressing, I hope to find some common ground or guidance in the profile link.

Jonathan

You are certainly not alone here. I look at certain profiles as well. That is partly why they are there.

For example, I recall having some interesting back-and-forth discussions with someone who kept saying they did not think the Catechism or Magisterium were binding. I kept telling the person, (politely I hope) that a person cannot really be a Catholic if they do not recognize the authority of the Church. Eventually, I looked the the person’s profile and discovered they were not Catholic. So of course they did not accept the authority of the Church. Once I knew that it changed the way I responded.

 

[Linkowski]

I would like to challenge you to read all of this entry and reply to all of it - I make this statement…

“Why would I go back to the Catholic Church (and deem it the holder of the truth) when it teaches that one can lose salvation.”

I was two days from returning to the Church when God opened my eyes. See below what I write…you cannot refute it.

Do we all agree that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone? I believe that is the case. What I cannot understand is that no one seems to get it…we are not saved by faith AND works but by faith THAT works. True saving faith can be seen in the parable of the sower…

Luke 8:11-15 NKJV 11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "**But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.**Then it says…

Luke 8:18 NKJV 18 “Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.”

It is the condition of the heart when we hear the gospel that makes all the difference in the world. The fourth person in the parable is the saved person, with true saving faith, while the other three are not born again. We are saved by faith that works…repentant faith with submission to Christ as Lord…

Romans 10:9 NKJV 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus (Jesus as Lord) and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

…that is what happened to me. I was blind but now I see, I was deaf but now I hear, I was dead but now alive, I was lame but now able to walk, I was mute but now can speak…It is a miracle of God.

I think what we disagree about most is that a person is saved and saved forever - but the fact of the matter is is that the fourth person in the parable of the sower bore fruit with patience or perseverance. God says it right there - ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. The other two (and ofcourse the first) were not saved - THAT IS THE KEY - what you say is that they were saved but then they lost it…but the truth is that they were never saved to begin with…key scriptures that you cannot argue against include but are CERTAINLY not limited to…

Hebrews 3:14 NKJV 14 For ***we have become partakers of Christ ***if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

1 John 5:4 NKJV 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

I have been born of God - and I will overcome because God has ordained it. You cannot lose salvation - your election that was planned from the foundation or the world cannot be reversed. It cannot happen.

Cont’d…

 

[Linkowski]

…cont’d

Myriad of other scriptures (which is still not the half):

Hebrews 10:14 NKJV 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

John 10:28-29 NKJV 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Philippians 1:6 NKJV 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

John 5:24 NKJV 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Hebrews 7:25 NKJV 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

John 13:10 NKJV 10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

Romans 8:1 NKJV 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:33 NKJV 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

I AM DEAD TO THE LAW AND NOTHING CAN BE CHARGED TO ME…JUST AS A WOMAN IS FREE TO MARRY ANOTHER WHEN HER HUSBAND PASSES, SIN CANNOT BE CHARGED TO ME (ALTHOUGH I CONFESS DAILY SINCE I IDENTIFY WITH PAUL IN ROMANS 7)…

Romans 7:2-4 NKJV 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

I am dead to the law - hid in Christ. If you are dead, can you get arrested for anything? Same here - I was dead to God but now born again and alive unto God - dead to the law and cannot be charged.
–Saved by faith THAT works and FOREVER.

Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation or are your works getting in the way?

Galatians 2:20 NKJV 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

 

[boppaid]

Thanks for YOUR swift reply.

Explain how Christ is in the scriptures at a Baptist service but not in a Catholic Mass please.

I’m not so much saying that Christ is present in the scriptures but more that I am closer to Christ through the way scripture is presented at a Protestant service.

The True Presence is biblical. It is a command of Jesus (see the Gospels and St Paul) not a recommendation for consideration. If you do not believe it then all this gnashing of teeth is moot: you are not in communion with the Church.

Well, the true presense in the eucharist isn’t something I completely don’t believe in, it’s something I struggle with. I am trying to believe it. Part of it makes sense to me, but some of it does not. Actually, my son is making his communion this year, so it’s been weighing heavily on my mind.

Early Christian services was the Catholic Mass.Protestant services are a creature of the 16th century (did you read my prior postings?).I have no idea where you got your information, but if you want my sources I will be glad to pass them along to you.

I would love to read your sources. (Not because I don’t believe you but because I want to learn.) When I said “early church” though, I meant the church of the apostles after Christ’s death.

For instance, there is nothing in the gospel to indicate that the apostles bowed before the eucharistic bread…not even the last supper. Reverence to the host was never mentioned in the Bible. Also, I never read about the apostles praying the rosary, or praying to Mary. I realize that just because it’s not in there doesn’t mean that it can’t be done. But I find it bothersome that when I read the new Testament I don’t recognize our Catholic Church in the Church that Peter and Paul and the others started in various parts of the world.

The Holy Spirit is *with *us (remember Pentacost?), Christ is not in us unless we receive Communion in a state of grace.

I thought the Holy Spirit lived in his believers, not with them. I’ll have to look into this one, to see why I believed this.

Please see my post on papal infallibility (look up my recent threads) then tell me what YOU mean by papal infallibility. I think you are greatly misinformed here.

I will look into your post on papal infallibility. How can I find your recent threads?

Who are these ‘Catholic’ advisors (confessor, clergy) who have been giving you this weird information?

One is my pastor. A few others are a previous pastor, and a priest who was my high school teacher. I also met with a sister a couple of times a few years back with these questions. I have also read “Peter The Rock and The Keys” (Is that the right title?), “What Catholics Really Believe”, “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” to name some. I can’t remember any others right now. Of course, I read “Catholic Answers”!

God bless you, I hope you find the Way.

Thank you so much. I truly need to find my way, and I can only do that through God’s good graces. SO please pray for me.

 

[boppaid]

…Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation or are your works getting in the way?

This is a big part of my problem.

 

[Damascus]

This is a big part of my problem.

boppaid,

Sorry, I had a mix up on my computer and did not know I was unsubscribed to this thread… ( and its my own doing )

geeze, boppaid- you dont have a problem., if anything the problem lies with the Catholics you did not get any info from!

I blame myself (even as a convert 5 yrs + now) Yikes!

Please! calm down!

We can figure all this out, and I am willing to stick it out with you to the end.

No matter what you decide on doing, I will stick by a sincere person.
Absolutely.

 

[boppaid]

geeze, boppaid- you dont have a problem., if anything the problem lies with the Catholics you did not get any info from!

I blame myself (even as a convert 5 yrs + now) Yikes!

Please! calm down!

We can figure all this out, and I am willing to stick it out with you to the end.

No matter what you decide on doing, I will stick by a sincere person.
Absolutely.

YOu know, I cried when I read your post. I’m not sure you’ll want to stick by me…I am very conflicted, and my views are so protestant you’ll probably get upset with me. But I am, indeed, sincere. Very. Thank you for your response.

 

[Damascus]

YOu know, I cried when I read your post. I’m not sure you’ll want to stick by me…I am very conflicted, and my views are so protestant you’ll probably get upset with me. But I am, indeed, sincere. Very. Thank you for your response.

I am with you even if you dont chose Catholic. I mean what I say.

 

[tequilamac]

…cont’d

Myriad of other scriptures (which is still not the half):

Hebrews 10:14 NKJV 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

John 10:28-29 NKJV 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Philippians 1:6 NKJV 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

John 5:24 NKJV 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Hebrews 7:25 NKJV 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

John 13:10 NKJV 10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

Romans 8:1 NKJV 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:33 NKJV 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

I AM DEAD TO THE LAW AND NOTHING CAN BE CHARGED TO ME…JUST AS A WOMAN IS FREE TO MARRY ANOTHER WHEN HER HUSBAND PASSES, SIN CANNOT BE CHARGED TO ME (ALTHOUGH I CONFESS DAILY SINCE I IDENTIFY WITH PAUL IN ROMANS 7)…

Romans 7:2-4 NKJV 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

I am dead to the law - hid in Christ. If you are dead, can you get arrested for anything? Same here - I was dead to God but now born again and alive unto God - dead to the law and cannot be charged.
–Saved by faith THAT works and FOREVER.

Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation or are your works getting in the way?

Galatians 2:20 NKJV 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Do you have a point to make in this reposting of the bible or are you attempting to take up bandwidth space? Is there someway you could sort of condense your intention to a style in which we can know WHT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

 

[Church_Militant]

YOu know, I cried when I read your post. I’m not sure you’ll want to stick by me…I am very conflicted, and my views are so protestant you’ll probably get upset with me. But I am, indeed, sincere. Very. Thank you for your response.

Listen my friend, I made the mistake of leaving the faith for over 34 years. Please do some serious homework (like I did) and don’t buy into all that stuff you are being taught.

Understand something right off the top. Non-Catholic theology is flawed all the way through because most of them embrace Sola Scriptura (I beg you to listen to that MP3 Bible study!), a doctrinal error that only came into being some 500 years ago and is not (I repeat, not) taught in the BIble. As a result they run with whatever their pastors think is accurate, but even so they don’t agree. The only way they can even claim to agree is to relegate a lot of Biblical doctrines to the “non-essential” category and then say they agree on the “core doctrines” of Christianity. If you look at it with simple God-given common sense it falls apart like dry sand from your hand.

Read my testimony here. then PM me and I’ll be happy to talk to you privately about anything that you want.

Meanwhile there are three more Bible studies that you might also check out.
Salvation by Faith Alone, Once Saved, Always Saved, and Mary & the Bible plus Purgatory & the Bible. All the references and notes can be found here, so you can print them out and follow along.

There is also an excellent series of Catholic studies that you can get for FREE from the Catholic Home Study Service. Having completed them all I can tell you that you cannot go wrong with these things.

You need to be very careful about what you’re thinking of doing my friend. There is truth…and then there is the fullness of truth.
I will remember you in all my prayers from now on.
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

Linkowski,
I would advise you to read the Forum Rules and Banned Topics Policy carefully before posting any further on this thread. Just a piece of advice in the interest of extending your stay here at CAF.
Pax tecum,