Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

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Thank you for your respectful reply…I appreciate your correcting me on this but, clearly, the Church teaches a works based salvation…even in saying that the sacraments are necessary for salvation in the CCC. This is a religious works based salvation that has my Grandmother thinking self-righteously as though she deserves heaven (no boasting:thumbsup: ). The main thing that I was addressing up further was once saved always saved which is supported very heavily in scripture. The Church does not teach this either so how can I return. A year ago I was two days from returning but it never happened. Irregardless, thank you for your kind guidance.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
:confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes:

I cant keep up with all this Linkowski. Either you are confused, or simply incorrigable. Be careful in your accusations against Tequillamac. Its bearing false witness at this point and that my friend is putting you in spiritual danger!:eek:
 
Criticizing the messenger does not make the truth false. OK, that is all. Bye everyone.
 
Linkowski said:
As far as working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, this has to do with assurance of salvation and not “once saved always saved”. My posting very clearly indicates that once saved always saved…All you have to do is read this one…

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
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I’m no apologist but this struck my fancy so I thought I’d give it a try. 🙂
We can never be assured of our salvation because we don’t know when we’re going to die.
What if you just killed someone out of anger and died the same day yourself? How do you know that you will be saved? In the OT, God condemned the murders and it’s even against one of the commandments that God gave Moses. Is it suddenly null and void now because supposedly we are assured of our salvation???
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Linkowski:
Are you born of God??? If you are you will persevere. This is what gets me about Catholic Teaching about being born again at baptism…this cannot be the case. If everyone is born again at baptism, then they would all persevere in the faith - but they clearly do not and it makes a mockery of this statement in scripture which clearly indicates that if you are born again, you will have an overcoming faith.
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We are not “born again” at Baptism. We are just BORN at baptism because we are officially members of the Church then. Being “born again” is not necessary for salvation. It’s a personal experience that some have and other don’t. It’s not required for admittance into Heaven. Being “born again” is simply getting “excited” for the faith again.
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Linkowski:
Assurance is what God wants us to have and we can have it. AND - once saved always saved. He that hath ears to hear let him hear.
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Says who? Sola scriptura Christians???
 
Linkowski said:
Thank you for your respectful reply…I appreciate your correcting me on this but, clearly, the Church teaches a works based salvation…even in saying that the sacraments are necessary for salvation in the CCC. This is a religious works based salvation that has my Grandmother thinking self-righteously as though she deserves heaven (no boasting:thumbsup: ). The main thing that I was addressing up further was once saved always saved which is supported very heavily in scripture. The Church does not teach this either so how can I return. A year ago I was two days from returning but it never happened. Irregardless, thank you for your kind guidance.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
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Eternal Security is not supported heavily in scripture. In fact, it is contradicted in Acts and a couple of Paul’s epistles, particularly James “Faith without works is dead” James 2:14 and following! I am no apologist so for a more complete discussion, take a look here: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9509fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802chap.asp

Eternal Security is theologically and morally unsound because, among other things, it creates a series of logical paradoxes. Here are a couple.

A person becomes born again at the age of 12. He remains very faithful throughout your teen years and even attends Bible College to become a Baptist minister. Them something happens and he chooses to reject God and eventually descends into atheism. He becomes an enemy of Christianity. Will this unholy person, a self-proclaimed enemy of God go to Heaven? (This is not hypothetical, this is my story. It took a very serious event followed by a profound and supernatural series of experiences to bring me back to the Church after more than 20 years as an atheist.)

Another paradox. Say a person does not reject God outright, but simply chooses to descend into depravity and gross sin. This person embraces all the sinful passions and allurments of the world and lives a life indistingushable from an atheist or agnostic. Is this person saved?

One response is that these people were no truly saved. A saved person simply cannot behave in that manner because God gives him a special grace which prevents him from doing these things. This response cannot be valid because it states that a saved person looses their free-will.

So essentially the doctrine of eternal security can in fact promote a sinful lifestyle. What possible motivation is there for someone to live a morally upright life? They say “I am going to Heaven so why obey God’s laws? I’ll just have fun my way.” I do not mean to belittle, it is simply the logical progression of this doctrine.
 
One other point. The word “salvation” is often misused.

Salvation occurs at the Judgment of God and the determination is made that a person will not receive eternal punishment in Hell.

Justification is that concept where a person, while still in his earthly, corporeal life, can have his sins forgiven and acheive a state of grace. Should a person die in this state, heaven is assured, but only if they die in this state.

Thus justification preceeds salvation.

Of course, if you believe in eternal security, there is no such thing as justification. Which is unfortunate because that word is used so often in Scripture.
 
mrs_abbott said:
Sorry, I’m guilty for encouraging. I just read his/her last post and was possessed to respond. 😦
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MrsAbbott,

I welcome any and all of your comments and I agree, that these posts could possess anyone to a lot of different things. I bashed my head up against the wall a few times, so I am too dizy now to respond to the poster, thank you for stepping in. ANd rpp and everyone else. But,

Mr Linkowski could you please start a new thread? My head hurts.
 
Damascus said:
MrsAbbott,

I welcome any and all of your comments and I agree, that these posts could possess anyone to a lot of different things. I bashed my head up against the wall a few times, so I am too dizy now to respond to the poster, thank you for stepping in. ANd rpp and everyone else. But,

Mr Linkowski could you please start a new thread? My head hurts.
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Hey Damascus pardon me for interrupting but I just wrote the cutest post. Might help your headache or it might get worse.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1736342&postcount=77
 
JonathanKinsman said:
Child of God,

I look to profiles to address the person as an individual, not as an online handle.

It is difficult for me to print some of these internet identities with a straight face. Also, if I am unsure about who I am addressing, I hope to find some common ground or guidance in the profile link.

Jonathan
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Hi,
Me too!👍
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,

Thank you. I think I need to rephrase my question. But I have to think about how to rephrase it and I have to go out so I will pose my question tom.😃 I do understand the CC view on the Eucharist so I guess my question might be different. Ill get back to you.👍

P.S. I noticed you checked out my profile.😃
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Hi,

I changed my mind about rephrasing my question. I understand. Thank you though.👍
 
Damascus said:
If someone decides they dont like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it and stays in the CHurch since they agree with everything else, have they excommunicated themselves?

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?
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How people lose their Catholic worldview…
home.catholicweb.com/tcps/index.cfm/NewsItem?id=172906&From=Home
 
JonathanKinsman said:
Finally, no one said you’re going to hell. Least of all the Catholic Church. You said it. And I hope it was mere hyperbole on your part.

Pax Christi
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Well, in fairness, I thought it was stated that if someone leaves the Catholic Church (and rejects the Catholic faith) that they would go to Hell. That means that he was told he would go to Hell, I believe, since he has left the Catholic Church. At least that’s how I interepreted it too. I felt the same way, as I am considering leaving. So, maybe that’s what he meant.
 
Okay…regarding the fact that Caholic doctrine teaches that you can lose the Holy Spirit when you commit mortal sin. I researched a little today in Scriptures, and found those I list below. These seem to contradict that teaching. How can this be?

Hebrews 13: 5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

Ephisians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

In Hebrews he PROMISES “Never will I leave you”…He knows we’re sinners, why would He leave us in our sin? It makes no sense. I realize the CC might say we leave him because we choose to sin, and in a small way that’s true, but it’s also not completely true. We have sinful natures and we are NEVER worthy of heaven on our own merits. So, although we sin, we do not personally choose to have sinful natures…but that’s why we need HIM. He knows we are sinners and yet he promises us here he will never leave us…even in our sin.

In Ephisians, he says that we are marked with a seal…the Holy Spirit. This, to me, says that the Holy Spirit lives IN us, not simply with us.

What am I missing here?
 
boppaid said:
Okay…regarding the fact that Caholic doctrine teaches that you can lose the Holy Spirit when you commit mortal sin. I researched a little today in Scriptures, and found those I list below. These seem to contradict that teaching. How can this be?

Hebrews 13: 5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

Ephisians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

In Hebrews he PROMISES “Never will I leave you”…He knows we’re sinners, why would He leave us in our sin? It makes no sense. I realize the CC might say we leave him because we choose to sin, and in a small way that’s true, but it’s also not completely true. We have sinful natures and we are NEVER worthy of heaven on our own merits. So, although we sin, we do not personally choose to have sinful natures…but that’s why we need HIM. He knows we are sinners and yet he promises us here he will never leave us…even in our sin.

In Ephisians, he says that we are marked with a seal…the Holy Spirit. This, to me, says that the Holy Spirit lives IN us, not simply with us.

What am I missing here?
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It seems you have it all sewed up. Not only is the Catholic Church wrong, but so is every Christian denomination on earth. For if we follow your reasoning out it simply means that everybody and their brother will go automatically to Heaven no matter what they do or do not do. :cool: Hell is non existent as it is completely unnecessary, it does not matter if we sin or not because God just does not care one way or the other because he is such a nice guy. That is sooooo coool. but I wouldn’t bet my immortal soul on it, would you? In fact, I need a little cash for Christmas. Perhaps I should run out and rob the liquor store because after all Jesus will be with me and it really does not matter whether I rob the store or not. Neato.
 
boppaid said:
Okay…regarding the fact that Caholic doctrine teaches that you can lose the Holy Spirit when you commit mortal sin. I researched a little today in Scriptures, and found those I list below. These seem to contradict that teaching. How can this be?

Hebrews 13: 5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”
Click to expand...
Note that in this verse, he says, “I will never leave you,” not “you will never leave me.” When a person commits a mortal sin, he is choosing to disobey and walk out of relationship with God. In other words, God isn’t doing the leaving, the sinner is.
boppaid said:
In Hebrews he PROMISES “Never will I leave you”…He knows we’re sinners, why would He leave us in our sin? It makes no sense. I realize the CC might say we leave him because we choose to sin, and in a small way that’s true, but it’s also not completely true. We have sinful natures and we are NEVER worthy of heaven on our own merits. So, although we sin, we do not personally choose to have sinful natures…but that’s why we need HIM. He knows we are sinners and yet he promises us here he will never leave us…even in our sin.
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You’re right - he wouldn’t leave us in our sin. But in our sins, we’ve chosen to leave him. No, we don’t choose to have sinful natures, but isn’t that a bit of a copout? That’s almost like saying that nobody is ever responsible for their own sins, and a bit like blaming Adam and Eve for what we do in disobedience to God today. So no, we don’t choose to have sinful natures, but we do choose to indulge them from time to time. In other words, we aren’t guilty for inheriting sin nature, but for satisfying it with actual sin.
 
tequilamac said:
It seems you have it all sewed up. Not only is the Catholic Church wrong, but so is every Christian denomination on earth. For if we follow your reasoning out it simply means that everybody and their brother will go automatically to Heaven no matter what they do or do not do. :cool: Hell is non existent as it is completely unnecessary, it does not matter if we sin or not because God just does not care one way or the other because he is such a nice guy. That is sooooo coool. but I wouldn’t bet my immortal soul on it, would you? In fact, I need a little cash for Christmas. Perhaps I should run out and rob the liquor store because after all Jesus will be with me and it really does not matter whether I rob the store or not. Neato.
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Well, not exactly. I don’t think someone who makes Christ the center of their life would do that. And I certainly know that there is only one way to the Father, and that is through Christ.
 
djrakowski said:
You’re right - he wouldn’t leave us in our sin. But in our sins, we’ve chosen to leave him. No, we don’t choose to have sinful natures, but isn’t that a bit of a copout? That’s almost like saying that nobody is ever responsible for their own sins, and a bit like blaming Adam and Eve for what we do in disobedience to God today. So no, we don’t choose to have sinful natures, but we do choose to indulge them from time to time. In other words, we aren’t guilty for inheriting sin nature, but for satisfying it with actual sin.
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But if Jesus KNOWS we are sinners and STILL promises never to leave us then I truly believe he wouldn’t leave us even in a state of sin. However, if we are living for Him, we never feel good about our sin. If he is the center of our life, we would never say we weren’t responsible, only “Isn’t it wonderful that Christ loves us so much he never leaves us, sinners though we are? Thank you Jesus!”
 
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