Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

[tequilamac]

Actually it wasn’t so much the content of what you were saying that I was unsure of as to how to “read” but rather your tone. On the internet, as I’m sure you’re aware, it’s difficult to read tone…especially when you don’t know someone.

But I’m NOT saying that a Christian would be fallible, I"m saying all people (Christian or not) are sinners. I think we both believe that we need to repent for our sins. I believe you don’t need a private confessional for that, though, and you do. However, that’s not the original point we were discussing. We were talking about whether the Holy Spirit leaves someone who is in a “state of sin”. I think not, and I feel that is supported by the two scriptures I quoted earlier in Hebrews and Ephisians.

Now, the issue then became whether or not we leave God or He leaves us. First, I think it’s illogical to think that He is no longer in us when we sin. First, I believe if he leaves us every time we sin, that wouldnt’ make sense since we are constantly sinful people. Secondly, I don’t see scriptural evidence to support that. I guess what I’m asking you guys for is scriputre that supports that. That would help in my understanding.

I’m really not arguing. I’m just trying to sort through my lack of faith in the Catholic Church.

I’m not sure how you read my denial of Christ in any of my posts.

boppaid- did I misread your profile? you said you were catholic. And yet you do seem somewhat intent on denying the tenets of the faith such as confession. What gives? Or did I misread your profile? Frankly, your arguments are more along the line of fundamentalism which is okay if that is where you are at. It just would be nice not to be mislead into misunderstandings.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Jonathan, thanks for taking the time to respond!

I guess this goes back to the “faith alone” doctrine, then. If you believe in faith alone, then you wouldn’t believe that Ephisians is referring to Baptism, which is a whole other topic I suppose.

This is why I get so frustrated. Thank you for your help. I will continue to read through Hebrews to try to gain more perspective.

Boppaid:

If you’re struggling with "Faith Alone, the Scriptures never taught that. In fact, the only time that “Faith alone” is referred to in Sacred Scripture, St. James the Apostle derided it:

*So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

James 2:17-20 RSV*

What Scripture taught is that we are saved through GOD’S GRACE:

*For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands – remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end.

Ephesians 2:8-16 RSV*

Here’s an FYI, the word that the Apostle St. Paul uses for “Works”, and the reason he refers to “Circumcision” is that St. Paul is refering to the The Works which were required by the Jewish Law (such as Circumcision).

Luther was so fixated on Solo Fides that he wanted to eliminate the Epistle of James from the Canon of Sacred Scripture.

There’s a form of acceptance that is oftentimes suggested in this situation, I’ve quite forgotten the word (comes from having a part of one’s brain sliced out), but Tequilamac will know it from the description, “What the truth hath spoken, that for truth I hold.” What that means is that I don’t fully understand it but I accept it because the one saying it is Jesus Christ, Who is the Truth.

You see, The Church is rightfully asked to prove the truth of the doctrines we are able to understand. However, Once we hit the limits of our understanding, we are asked to accept that the rest came from our Lord and to accept that they are true because He is the Truth.

I hope this helps.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[boppaid]

boppaid- did I misread your profile? you said you were catholic. And yet you do seem somewhat intent on denying the tenets of the faith such as confession. What gives? Or did I misread your profile? Frankly, your arguments are more along the line of fundamentalism which is okay if that is where you are at. It just would be nice not to be mislead into misunderstandings.

You did not misread my profile, and I am not misleading anyone. I am Catholic. I am a Catholic who is having a hard time believing in the tenants of my faith. Does that mean I should just leave the CC? Or should I keep TRYING to understand?

 

[boppaid]

Thank you MIchael. The problem I have is that for as many verses that teachers works, there’s also at least that many for faith being the salvation. So, it gets very confusing for me.

 

[mrs_abbott]

You did not misread my profile, and I am not misleading anyone. I am Catholic. I am a Catholic who is having a hard time believing in the tenants of my faith. Does that mean I should just leave the CC? Or should I keep TRYING to understand?

No, don’t leave! If you know the CC to be right in your heart, keep trying to understand.
There are a handful of things that I don’t agree with about the CC but I’m also trying cuz I know in my heart that the CC is where I belong.

 

[Karianne]

What is to become of your Catholic friends and family?
The same thing that becomes of your Protestant friends and family, atheist friends and family, etc. . .

They will be judged by Almighty God (we all will) and since He is all just, and all merciful, and alone possesses the power to know every individual’s heart. . .we can rest assured that His judgment will be fully righteous.

Until then, what we can do is pray for every person on earth to open his or her heart to do the will of God.

That’s one of the nicest things you’ve ever written, and comforting as well.

 

[Damascus]

You did not misread my profile, and I am not misleading anyone. I am Catholic. I am a Catholic who is having a hard time believing in the tenants of my faith. Does that mean I should just leave the CC? Or should I keep TRYING to understand?

NO, No, not so fast! You must try to understand of course!! Yikes, I hope you keep doing just that.

I understand your position since its obvious you are struggling with it, and seeking an understanding of it,

I get it. Maybe T got mixed up. I dont blame her after reading that post about the car incident. I am sure she just got mixed up about it.

Lets both be happy we have toddler issues.

I think T also was just saying that there is a reason for the stuff the Church does and its not to be capricious or mean its because the Church has bent over backwards to offer us every possible vehicle to help us along the way.

I hope I got that right. I like both of you and hope this gets cleared up.

In fact, there is another poster participating on this very thread that I felt stongly (still do!) was just as sincere as you and I went to town for that poster when was getting well, a hard time here and I saw it was really just a mix up since nothing was said to imply they were leaving just trying to “get it” big difference and I can see that.

 

[mrs_abbott]

In fact, there is another poster participating on this very thread that I felt stongly (still do!) was just as sincere as you and I went to town for that poster when was getting well, a hard time here and I saw it was really just a mix up since nothing was said to imply they were leaving just trying to “get it” big difference and I can see that.

You’re a good person, Damascus!

 

[Damascus]

You out there boppaid?

 

[Riley259]

If someone decides they dont like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it and stays in the CHurch since they agree with everything else, have they excommunicated themselves?

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?

They can publically call themselves Catholics but they shouldn’t.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Thank you MIchael. The problem I have is that for as many verses that teachers works, there’s also at least that many for faith being the salvation. So, it gets very confusing for me.

Boppaid,

Can you please define “Faith”? I’m sure that the Apostles and the members of the Early Church would be horrified to hear it. I’m sorry, but how they defined “Faith” was completely different from how we define it.

I would strongly advise you to read the Early Church Fathers and the accounts of the martyrs who went to Mass at Sunrise, distributed their money to the poor, and lived either as virgins or as chaste spouses raising families who considered all of these things to be “Works of Faith”.

earlychristianwritings.com/

You can also access the Verba Senorum, which are the sayings of the various Fathers and brothers who lived in the Egyptian and Middle Eastern Deserts in the middle 3rd through the 5th Centuries.

www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/wd.htm

You’ve managed to accept some pernicious teaching about Faith, Works and Justification that can only come from Protestant teaching. The question is whether you can get rid of it and accept the Church’s teaching on this, not whether someone can match scripture for scripture, because you will always be able to find scriptures you will be able to interpret as supporting the Protestant teaching.

It is so important that you get rid of this Protestant Teaching that you need to get a Spiritual Director to deal with you on this until you can accept the Catholic Teaching on the interelationship of Grace, Faith and works in working out our Salvation.

One last point - If we were saved by the Protestant definition of Faith alone, would St. Paul have written this passage? Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 RSV

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Okay…regarding the fact that Caholic doctrine teaches that you can lose the Holy Spirit when you commit mortal sin. I researched a little today in Scriptures, and found those I list below. These seem to contradict that teaching. How can this be?

Hebrews 13: 5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

Ephisians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

In Hebrews he PROMISES “Never will I leave you”…He knows we’re sinners, why would He leave us in our sin? It makes no sense. I realize the CC might say we leave him because we choose to sin, and in a small way that’s true, but it’s also not completely true. We have sinful natures and we are NEVER worthy of heaven on our own merits. So, although we sin, we do not personally choose to have sinful natures…but that’s why we need HIM. He knows we are sinners and yet he promises us here he will never leave us…even in our sin.

In Ephisians, he says that we are marked with a seal…the Holy Spirit. This, to me, says that the Holy Spirit lives IN us, not simply with us.

What am I missing here?

Boppaid:

These verses were written to Christians who were undergoing persecution. God was saying that He would comfort and strengthen Christians in the Arena, on the crosses, in the boiling oil, in the Salt Mines and in whatever other terrible tortures the persecuters could devise.

These became very popular during the final perscution in the late 3rd and early 4th Century when the Romans were slaughtering Christians by the 10,000’s.

Although God never stops loving us no matter how badly we sin, he doesn’t keep us from the effects of our sins, and the Church has never interpreted these to mean that God would support and comfort Christians in their sins. And, The Church has most definitely never interpreted these to mean that we could sin all we wanted without losing our Salvation.

Please remember that the Early Church required Public Confession in front of the entire congregation and that the Penances were quite strict. Please also remember that the Catholic Church doesn’t accept Scrupture Only for Divine Inspirition and for Teaching and that the Tradition of the Church is as important as Scripture for Divine Inspirition.

Please, submit to a Spiritual Director and stop these arguments over Scriptures which have been misinterpreted.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[jonfan]

Well, I’ll help you out here, AllForHim because you can now say you know a Catholic who agrees 100% with all church teachings. . .and all the Church stands for.

Me.

Ditto

 

[boppaid]

Hi. I’ve got out of town company and I’ve been SO BUSY this weekend! I will jump back in more next week.

BUT…I did want to post a comment. Someone (I’m sorry, can’t remember which poster) said that God never does leave us, but that we leave him. But what about this scriputure verse?

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

No man…we are men. How can we “pluck ourselves” out of our Father’s hand?

 

[Damascus]

Hi. I’ve got out of town company and I’ve been SO BUSY this weekend! I will jump back in more next week.

BUT…I did want to post a comment. Someone (I’m sorry, can’t remember which poster) said that God never does leave us, but that we leave him. But what about this scriputure verse?

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

No man…we are men. How can we “pluck ourselves” out of our Father’s hand?

Well, here goes. Even when I was a Protestant I never saw this verse in the light you are now.

It is impossible for a man to take another mans faith, love and obedience to the Father away.

Its the man himself that does it, not Another man.

PS- hope you are enjoying your visits and having a blessed Advent with your family and freinds.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Thank you for your respectful reply…I appreciate your correcting me on this but, clearly, the Church teaches a works based salvation…even in saying that the sacraments are necessary for salvation in the CCC. This is a religious works based salvation that has my Grandmother thinking self-righteously as though she deserves heaven (no boasting:thumbsup: ). The main thing that I was addressing up further was once saved always saved which is supported very heavily in scripture. The Church does not teach this either so how can I return. A year ago I was two days from returning but it never happened. Irregardless, thank you for your kind guidance.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Linkowski:

Just as you misinterpreted the Scriptures you quoted and took them out of context to support OSAS, so your Grandmother must misinterpret the teaching of the Church to believe that she has earned Salvation by her works.

Salvation is a Gift of incomparable worth like the Pearl of Great Price Our Lord mentioned in the Parable. It cost us His Life for us to be able to be given it, but it also cost us our old sinful lives so that we can receive it, and because it cost us our old sinful lives, the price of keeping our salvation is that we have to keep doing the things that allow the seed of new life to grow, while putting the old fleshly, sinful man to death who would destroy that new life if he could.

That is the process Baptism starts and the Sacraments and participation in the life of Christ continue. This is the process discribed in the Scriptures you quoted, and this is what will happen if we cooperate with the Holy Spirit working in and through us.

Christianity wasn’t given to Martin Luther and to the other Reformers in the 16th Century. It was given to a bunch of Jews Our Lord called “Apostles” and “Friends” sometime around 32 A.D. when “The Holy Spirit came as a mighty rushing wind” to the Apostles, the other disciples and Jesus Mother, Mary, who were all gathered in the upper room where Jesus had inaugurated the Sacrament of the New Covenant with his Apostles just 54 days previous.

It is because the Church was founded by Our lord jesus in 32 AD and not the time of Martin Luther that it is vital that we learn and follow what that Church did and not what Luther did, even if it makes you uncomfortable and even if you don’t understand one of more of the doctrines, or you’ve decided they are “Just too hard for you” as they were too hard for many of his followers in John 6.

I hope this makes everything a little more understandable, but I’m just not going to get into a battle of “Prooftexting” when I know that your original problem was probably one of a refusal to submit.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Hi. I’ve got out of town company and I’ve been SO BUSY this weekend! I will jump back in more next week.

BUT…I did want to post a comment. Someone (I’m sorry, can’t remember which poster) said that God never does leave us, but that we leave him. But what about this scriputure verse?

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

No man…we are men. How can we “pluck ourselves” out of our Father’s hand?

Boppaid:

This Scripture also is one that was never interpreted by the Church (East or West) as you are interpreting it now.

Our Lord Jesus was preparing His Apostles for the period after His crucifixion and saying that none of them were going to be lost (killed or imprisoned) - If you look at the scene in the Garden of Gathsemene, you’ll see that, except for Judas Iscariot, none of Jesus’ Disciples were lost to death or imprisonment at the hands of Jesus’ enemies.

I’m sorry, but this is how the Church has interpreted this Scripture since the Earliest Days.

The OSAS is even more pernicious than the Salvation by Faith Alone as it teaches that someone can “Pray the Sinners’ Prayer”, be Baptized as a Sign of their Profession of Faith, and then do NOTHING ELSE to grow their Faith in Christ Jesus and GO TO HEAVEN on Judgment Day.

Boppaid, St. Paul NEVER taught that, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS, and the only people who ever did teach anything remotely resembling this were heretics who were known as GNOSTICS!

Boppaid, because of this, and because of the danger of Gnosticism, I want you to take this to a Spiritual Director and to try to Submit to him, Please.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

PS: Boppaid, It appears that you probably didn’t read the last 4 posts I wrote to you which covered the ground of the post I answered here. Please read them.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I have a boy and a girl 16 and 14. I am most blessed. Boys are different from girls. I have been a bit irritable on the forum for the last 24 hours because boy took my suburban out in the snow and got sideswiped by his friend a couple of days ago. So now suburban is in in the auto body shop with 3,000 dollars damage. But ever in good hands, i got a rental car. Chevy silverado 4x4 2006. Brought it home. Kid asked could he borrow it to take his friend home last night. Said like an idiot sure.

Kid drove with his friend out to our local lake at 8:30pm when I first started arguing on the eastern catholic forum, drove 10 ft into the water and got stuck.
All clay.

Then was told the dam would be opened by 3.00am. Panic. Didn’t call me and tell me the truth until I was fully engaged in mudslinging myself with Fr… Ambrose. Got warned by the moderators so I took off.

Took six 4x4 trucks to pull him out in time. He got home with it covered in mud with a hole in the catalytic converter at 3:30.

The first three trucks that tried to pull him out: one broke his bumper off, another overheated, the next snapped the tow hooks off the front of ours.

So three more trucks showed up with lots of cable, put the ball on the trailer hitch and pulled him out backwards.

The hole he made is now covered with 60’ of water.

Been on the phone off and on all day with the rental company and insurance. Hoping for the best.

Love the boys really I do but they are much much much more expensive than girls. During all this time, my daughter was dutifully practicing her piano and hanging up christmas ornaments.

I’m in a better mood now as it only cost me a 250 dollar deductible. One of these days he will go to college or otherwise move out I will have one car that I can drive myself more than 24 hours without having to take it to the shop.

But I live in the country surrounded by self described red necks and crackers and “mudding” is what is done for fun around here I guess.

Pointed out to the kid that everyone else muds in beat up old cars with no value except junk, not luxury model cars. Been here two years and still trying to adjust.
So I have been making my posts last night and today in between multi phone calls and hysterical updates.

Tequilamac:

I wish you would have told us about this earlier (like right after your Teenaged-son crashed the Suburban). If you had, we just might have been able to persuade you to NEVER give the keys to him until AFTER he had paid for an Insurance co-pay and a few Insurance Payments.

And, Maybe we could have let you know that you were not alone, and that there were a few here who both understood and had been through and have been through it themselves. :yup:

And, I am sorry to hear about your situation. I had a brother who was nothing but bad news, and I could tell stories that would raise the hairs on your head, but it wouldn’t do any good (unless you wanted a Mohawk).

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[boppaid]

Boppaid:

The OSAS is even more pernicious than the Salvation by Faith Alone as it teaches that someone can “Pray the Sinners’ Prayer”, be Baptized as a Sign of their Profession of Faith, and then do NOTHING ELSE to grow their Faith in Christ Jesus and GO TO HEAVEN on Judgment Day…

You make some valid points here. I really need to pray about this.

Boppaid, St. Paul NEVER taught that, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS, and the only people who ever did teach anything remotely resembling this were heretics who were known as GNOSTICS!

Is that what you feel evangelical Christians are (gnostics)?

Boppaid, because of this, and because of the danger of Gnosticism, I want you to take this to a Spiritual Director and to try to Submit to him, Please.

Thank you. I am meeting with our Priest about these issues too.

PS: Boppaid, It appears that you probably didn’t read the last 4 posts I wrote to you which covered the ground of the post I answered here. Please read them.

No, I’m sorry. I was so swamped with my company, but I was reading Scripture last night while the girls were sleeping, and I found that verse and HAD to put it “out here” before I forgot. I will go back in the thread and reread when my company leaves. Thank you again.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

You make some valid points here. I really need to pray about this.

Is that what you feel evangelical Christians are (gnostics)?

Thank you. I am meeting with our Priest about these issues too.

No, I’m sorry. I was so swamped with my company, but I was reading Scripture last night while the girls were sleeping, and I found that verse and HAD to put it “out here” before I forgot. I will go back in the thread and reread when my company leaves. Thank you again.

Boppaid:

I’m going to be brief as can be because I’m not your Spiritual Director.

I’m not concerned about whether or not I’m making valid points. I’m worried about the state of your soul and whether you can bring yourself to submit to a Spiritual Director and to the Church’s interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures rather than your Private Interpration and those of your Protestant friends.

I lived in a Christian Community for almost a year. the people were dedicated to the spread of the Gospel, supported a Christian Rock Band, promoted Christian Rock concerts, Sent a team of missionaries who repaired churches and houses in Baja California and were so busy trying to live christian lives they couldn’t be concerned about issues such as “Eternal Security”.

Keith Greene was like like, and Jesus People USA is like that. I’m sure there are many other Fundamentalist-Evanglicals I could describe in the same fashion. I don’t think the tag of Gnostics would apply to any of those people, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.

But I see others who seem to feel that all you need to do is answer the “Alter Call”, pray the “Sinners Prayer” and maybe get Baptized as a sign of election. I’m strictly commanded not to judge, but I see no good coming out of this. And, this sounds an aweful lot like a form of Gnosticsm which says that what you do doesn’t matter - it’s only what you “Believe”.

A HUGE problem with “Eternal Security” (Esp. when combined with “Limited Atonement” and “Absolute Predestination”) is that it has you worried about whether or not you’ve been “Elected to Salvation” rather than assembling with the brethren, “working out your salvation” and “praying without ceasing” as we are commanded in the Scriptures while doing the various kinds of “Works of Mercy” we are called on to do by the Church Christ founded.

It is good that you’re meeting with the priest. What’s more important that you OBEY and SUBMIT to him. He’s God’s servant and YOUR SHEPHERD, and right now, you’re stuck in some bramble bushes. If you happen to feel the crook of a shepherd’s staff, it’s not meant to choke you - It’s there to free you from the thorns.

I hope the company that you have over are people you want to be with and whose company you enjoy, and that they didn’t disturb your daughters’ sleep too much.

Scripture shouldn’t be read just to find a verse that hopefully supports some Doctrine hat we want to believe or that opposes a Doctrine the Church teache so we can justify our refusal to submit. I would really appreciate that, before you try posting the results of something like that in the future, you try to read the what we’ve said to you in responses to your posts and your questions. Anything else makes at least me begin to wonder if you’re listening.

Scripture must be read so that we can get to know the One who wrote it and gave His life for us. A discipline suggested by the Church for several centuries is something called Lectio Divina.

ocarm.org/lectio/lecteng.htm
osb.org/lectio/

If you can make yourself do this, you’ll find yourself Breathing Scripture, but you just might be embarrassed at how you used it here.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael