Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

[djrakowski]

But if Jesus KNOWS we are sinners and STILL promises never to leave us then I truly believe he wouldn’t leave us even in a state of sin. However, if we are living for Him, we never feel good about our sin. If he is the center of our life, we would never say we weren’t responsible, only “Isn’t it wonderful that Christ loves us so much he never leaves us, sinners though we are? Thank you Jesus!”

You’re still insisting that it is Jesus doing the leaving, when nothing could be farther from the truth. What he promises, he keeps, but we have to keep up our end of the bargain, too. When you sin, you’re turning your back on God - not the other way around.

Here’s a horrible analogy (bear with me, I’m a-tryin’!): If you choose to disobey the rules of your company, having adequate knowledge of them, and then are fired, has the company left you, or have you left the company?

When I sin, I’m remorseful. I know that I’ve placed a barrier between myself and God, and I want to do something to make that relationship right again. But, I insist, I was the one who chose to leave God by disobeying him and refusing him lordship over the area of my life in which I’ve sinned.

What do you make of 1 Thessalonians 5:19 - “Do not quench the Spirit.” If we can’t walk out of relationship with God, then why would we have to worry that something we’ve done could ‘quench the spirit?’

 

[djrakowski]

boppaid, there’s a Catholic Answers tract that does a good job explaining the Church’s position regarding salvation, entitled Assurance of Salvation. Perhaps you could give this a read and come back with anything that still doesn’t seem right to you.

 

[boppaid]

You’re still insisting that it is Jesus doing the leaving, when nothing could be farther from the truth. What he promises, he keeps, but we have to keep up our end of the bargain, too. When you sin, you’re turning your back on God - not the other way around.

That doesn’t make sense to me, though, because from the beginning we sinned. We were born sinners, we will die sinners. We sin every day. In our thoughts are sins. We will never be good enough. We can go through all the sacraments, confession, etc., but we are still sinners. When He first came into our lives we were sinners and we remain sinners. He still promises that he will never leave us. You mention that it is US who leave. But I am how God made me…he knows that I will sin. He expects me to. And because I love Him so much my heart breaks when I do because it hurts him. But I don’t see any proof in scriputre that he is not in me in my sinful nature. I don’t see anything that states that the Holy Spirit cannot reiside in a sinner.

As far as “do not quench the spirit”, I see that as meaning let the holy spirit shine in your life. Don’t hide it. Witness to people, and let the Holy Spirit be seen in your life and by your example.

 

[boppaid]

boppaid, there’s a Catholic Answers tract that does a good job explaining the Church’s position regarding salvation, entitled Assurance of Salvation. Perhaps you could give this a read and come back with anything that still doesn’t seem right to you.

Thank you . I tried to read it 3 times, but can’t comprehend it fully or give it my full attention as my 3 year old is jumping on my lap and pulling my hair. Yeah, I’m going nuts. Is it bedtime yet?

 

[Damascus]

Thank you . I tried to read it 3 times, but can’t comprehend it fully or give it my full attention as my 3 year old is jumping on my lap and pulling my hair. Yeah, I’m going nuts. Is it bedtime yet?

The Gambler
It must hurt to be three.

I base this upon the shrieks of displeasure that are issuing from the pint-sized person in the other room. She’s been raging against The Man since dawn, and I’ve had about enough of it.

I’d say that someone p*&^%$ in her Wheaties, but she doesn’t eat Wheaties. Or Cheerios. Or Oatmeal. Or anything that she used to eat, even if she ate it five minutes ago, she hates it now, and she hates you for bringing it to her attention.

Do you hear that? SHE HATES IT.

She hates:

1. Anyone looking at her.
2. Anyone looking near her.
3. Anyone breathing.
4. Anyone who isn’t looking at her and complimenting her.
5. Anyone who compliments her without using the pre-approved script.
6. Anyone who has a thought, unless she is the origin of that thought, and she has the graciousness to allow you to share in her brilliant idea.

Anyone who enters into the realm of hated behavior is subject to her wrath. Said wrath includes a sobbing cry like an air raid siren, assorted kicks and punches, oaths sworn to and dramatically played out and more.

“I am going to my room, and I am going to scream, and I am never coming out!” she hollers as she lurches, dramatically heaving her sobbing frame down the hall and into her room. She collapses on her bunk bed, howling. She continues for a half an hour or more as I contemplate whether a good mother would crank up the iPod or not.

I’ve been through the terrible threes twice already, and it doesn’t phase me. Much. This child seems to have a particularly hot streak, and I have to laugh, even as I cringe against the wall of outraged noise that washes over me like a toddler tsunami.

I know when to hold 'em. I know when to fold 'em. I know when to walk away, and you better believe I know when to run.

There are days that I, too, want to rail against The Man. In fact, I find it slightly hilarious that I’m The Man. As she gets closer to four, I know that these storms will start to subside. The irrational “That! No, that! No. THAT!” fits will taper off. There is a light at the end of this tunnel. I’ve reached it twice before. And I can see the humor, even as I sigh and turn up the music to buffer the howling down the hall.

She’s a toughie. But every time my daughter channels Clint Eastwood -

“You’ve got to ask yourself one question: ‘Do I feel lucky?’ Well, do ya punk?”

I have to admit, I do. I do feel lucky.

Thought this might help you laugh it off. Then you can read that salvation tract. I got it randomly off the net.

 

[boppaid]

Thought this might help you laugh it off. Then you can read that salvation tract. I got it randomly off the net.

Oh it helped BIG TIME. Truly, I cannot believe how different my girl (the 3 year old) is from my boy. He never had the temperment, stubborness, and dramatic flair that his sister does! You described my daughter to a “tee”. So, should I then assume it’s a “3 year old girl thing”? Because that would make me feel better to know it is, indeed normal! I used to think that my son was so good because I was a good mom. After I had her, I realized I was just lucky with his behavior!

 

[Damascus]

Personally, I think IMHO its a c&^% shoot. But, I have a 3 yr old daughter too. and its sooo fun sometimes no? Ughh. Dont have a boy, you are blessed.
Today I removed nail polish off the tub, she painted flowers on it for us.

 

[tequilamac]

Well, not exactly. I don’t think someone who makes Christ the center of their life would do that.

So in your opinion, we are not fallible human beings and the Church never needed to have those little confessional booths where a priest offers us absolution? Why is he doing that boppaid unless he is merely bored?

See, boppaid, even a catholic like yourself cannot make a case against what we have in the Church. We have what we have in the Church for a reason. Any deviation, any deviation at all, and you put yourself on slippery slopes. Two times now. Want to try for three? It is kind of fun you know.

 

[djrakowski]

That doesn’t make sense to me, though, because from the beginning we sinned. We were born sinners, we will die sinners.

NO NO NO! We are not guilty of original sin, only the actual sins we commit. Therefore, we’re not born sinners, but rather, born with an inclination to sin.

We sin every day. In our thoughts are sins. We will never be good enough. We can go through all the sacraments, confession, etc., but we are still sinners. When He first came into our lives we were sinners and we remain sinners. He still promises that he will never leave us. You mention that it is US who leave. But I am how God made me…he knows that I will sin. He expects me to.

He also expects you to be perfect, and doesn’t excuse you to sin and do whatever you want simply because you have a sin nature. Check out Matthew 5:48 (KJV) - “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

Whoa… that doesn’t sound like God expects us to sin, nor that he excuses us for sinning. Indeed, it calls us to a standard of perfection. And yes, I still hold that when you sin, you are choosing to sin, and choosing therefore to walk away frrom God, who calls us to perfection. Yes, of course he knows that we can’t achieve that, since we were born of sin nature, but that’s why he gave the sacraments to the Church.

And because I love Him so much my heart breaks when I do because it hurts him. But I don’t see any proof in scriputre that he is not in me in my sinful nature. I don’t see anything that states that the Holy Spirit cannot reiside in a sinner.

I agree… because I love him so much, when I sin and feel personal guilt for my sin, I want to restore myself to a right relationship with him. That’s when I know I need to come clean, admit what I’ve done, and seek forgiveness through the sacrament of confession.

 

[djrakowski]

Oh it helped BIG TIME. Truly, I cannot believe how different my girl (the 3 year old) is from my boy. He never had the temperment, stubborness, and dramatic flair that his sister does! You described my daughter to a “tee”. So, should I then assume it’s a “3 year old girl thing”? Because that would make me feel better to know it is, indeed normal! I used to think that my son was so good because I was a good mom. After I had her, I realized I was just lucky with his behavior!

Not only is it a 3-year old girl thing, but a 4-ear old girl thing, too (judging by how my 4-year old is hoppin’ around right now - she’s our 3rd of 4, and she’s the silly one).

God bless that sweet little one of yours!

 

[djrakowski]

Thank you . I tried to read it 3 times, but can’t comprehend it fully or give it my full attention as my 3 year old is jumping on my lap and pulling my hair. Yeah, I’m going nuts. Is it bedtime yet?

Oh, I SO wish it were bedtime. Then my kids wouldn’t be whinin’ in my ear right now!

I know you’ll get it. Be patient with yourself, and pray to the Holy Spirit that he will guide you into all truth. You’re doin’ the right things, and askin’ the right questions.

 

[tequilamac]

Personally, I think IMHO its a c&^% shoot. But, I have a 3 yr old daughter too. and its sooo fun sometimes no? Ughh. Dont have a boy, you are blessed.
Today I removed nail polish off the tub, she painted flowers on it for us.

I have a boy and a girl 16 and 14. I am most blessed. Boys are different from girls. I have been a bit irritable on the forum for the last 24 hours because boy took my suburban out in the snow and got sideswiped by his friend a couple of days ago. So now suburban is in in the auto body shop with 3,000 dollars damage. But ever in good hands, i got a rental car. Chevy silverado 4x4 2006. Brought it home. Kid asked could he borrow it to take his friend home last night. Said like an idiot sure.

Kid drove with his friend out to our local lake at 8:30pm when I first started arguing on the eastern catholic forum, drove 10 ft into the water and got stuck.
All clay.

Then was told the dam would be opened by 3.00am. Panic. Didn’t call me and tell me the truth until I was fully engaged in mudslinging myself with Fr… Ambrose. Got warned by the moderators so I took off.

Took six 4x4 trucks to pull him out in time. He got home with it covered in mud with a hole in the catalytic converter at 3:30.

The first three trucks that tried to pull him out: one broke his bumper off, another overheated, the next snapped the tow hooks off the front of ours.

So three more trucks showed up with lots of cable, put the ball on the trailer hitch and pulled him out backwards.

The hole he made is now covered with 60’ of water.

Been on the phone off and on all day with the rental company and insurance. Hoping for the best.

Love the boys really I do but they are much much much more expensive than girls. During all this time, my daughter was dutifully practicing her piano and hanging up christmas ornaments.

I’m in a better mood now as it only cost me a 250 dollar deductible. One of these days he will go to college or otherwise move out I will have one car that I can drive myself more than 24 hours without having to take it to the shop.

But I live in the country surrounded by self described red necks and crackers and “mudding” is what is done for fun around here I guess.

Pointed out to the kid that everyone else muds in beat up old cars with no value except junk, not luxury model cars. Been here two years and still trying to adjust.
So I have been making my posts last night and today in between multi phone calls and hysterical updates.

 

[Damascus]

Many prayers for you Tequillamac- geeze. All that and the bakery too.

That boy most likely knows how close he came to finding out all about how this salvation business works no?

I am really getting nervous about when mine can drive. Its making me think that at least Mary did not have to worry over that one!

 

[mrs_abbott]

Personally, I think IMHO its a c&^% shoot. But, I have a 3 yr old daughter too. and its sooo fun sometimes no? Ughh. Dont have a boy, you are blessed.
Today I removed nail polish off the tub, she painted flowers on it for us.

I love my son to death!!! I’m debating on whether or not I want a girl because he is so easy. He is fascinated by anything with wheels on it.
He’s so precious!!!

 

[tequilamac]

Many prayers for you Tequillamac- geeze. All that and the bakery too.

That boy most likely knows how close he came to finding out all about how this salvation business works no?

I am really getting nervous about when mine can drive. Its making me think that at least Mary did not have to worry over that one!

Well needless to say, he is so totally grounded. so totally grounded. He’s been crying and throwing up all day as the magnitude hits him. He was told at one point to abandon the vehicle and run but he was afraid to do that. Afraid it would be too expensive so he chose to try and get the truck out of the mud. So we have spent sometime explaining to him how insurance works today. Called the police chief, we are such a small town, and told him I’ve got the kid’s DL and keys. They do not have to worry about him for a while. They were getting a bit upset with him anyway because he was doing reverse donuts in the snow with the Suburban a couple of weeks ago. Cost me a transfer case to the tune of two thousand dollars. Just got the car back a week ago before he got sideswiped and now this. I have gotten to drive my own car exactly once in three weeks. I just don’t have money for Christmas presents etc and he’s a big reason and he knows it. The bakery business is really slow right now.
Man I love this kid. He’s a kick in the pants. But I knew this day would come when I watched him take off down the street all those years ago on his first Big Wheel. But as he pointed out when he finally stopped crying- we will be seeing a lot more of him this Christmas. GROUNDED.

 

[boppaid]

So in your opinion, we are not fallible human beings and the Church never needed to have those little confessional booths where a priest offers us absolution? Why is he doing that boppaid unless he is merely bored?

No, I believe we are fallible…of course we are. We wouldn’t sin if we weren’t fallible.

and the Church never needed to have those little confessional booths where a priest offers us absolution? Why is he doing that boppaid unless he is merely bored?See, boppaid, even a catholic like yourself cannot make a case against what we have in the Church. We have what we have in the Church for a reason. Any deviation, any deviation at all, and you put yourself on slippery slopes. Two times now. Want to try for three? It is kind of fun you know.

I do not see where you are coming from. I’m just trying to understand Church doctrine. Are you asking me why the Catholic Church has confession?

And I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic and mean, or sarcastic and witty. I’m not trying to offend anyone. I hope you realize that.

 

[tequilamac]

No, I believe we are fallible…of course we are. We wouldn’t sin if we weren’t fallible.

I do not see where you are coming from. I’m just trying to understand Church doctrine. Are you asking me why the Catholic Church has confession?

And I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic and mean, or sarcastic and witty. I’m not trying to offend anyone. I hope you realize that.

I am sorry you are so touchy. I am not being mean or sarcastic. I am pointing out to you the logical conclusions that will bedrawn from your points. Each one you have made leads to a slippery slope.
For instance I commented that if Jesus is with us and salvation is assured whether or not we sin, which was your first contention, then I should have no compunction in robbing a liquor store. You responded by telling me someone who made Christ the center of their life would never rob a liquor store. I repsonded to that by stating whether or not Christ is the center of our life, we are human, fallible and subject to sin as we have still the effects of original sin. If we deny that, it is pointless to have a confessional, absolution or a priest.
Now you tell me I am sarcastic and mean. Sorry. Didn’t mean to be. It is just that you cannot make a case for your statements beginning with your bible passages in the direction you were going without ultimately denying Christ.
If that is mean, well, you might want to consider why you think insisting the Church does what she does for a reason strikes you as mean.

 

[boppaid]

Actually it wasn’t so much the content of what you were saying that I was unsure of as to how to “read” but rather your tone. On the internet, as I’m sure you’re aware, it’s difficult to read tone…especially when you don’t know someone.

I am sorry you are so touchy. I am not being mean or sarcastic. I am pointing out to you the logical conclusions that will bedrawn from your points. Each one you have made leads to a slippery slope.
For instance I commented that if Jesus is with us and salvation is assured whether or not we sin, which was your first contention, then I should have no compunction in robbing a liquor store. You responded by telling me someone who made Christ the center of their life would never rob a liquor store. I repsonded to that by stating whether or not Christ is the center of our life, we are human, fallible and subject to sin as we have still the effects of original sin. If we deny that, it is pointless to have a confessional, absolution or a priest.

But I’m NOT saying that a Christian would be fallible, I"m saying all people (Christian or not) are sinners. I think we both believe that we need to repent for our sins. I believe you don’t need a private confessional for that, though, and you do. However, that’s not the original point we were discussing. We were talking about whether the Holy Spirit leaves someone who is in a “state of sin”. I think not, and I feel that is supported by the two scriptures I quoted earlier in Hebrews and Ephisians.

Now, the issue then became whether or not we leave God or He leaves us. First, I think it’s illogical to think that He is no longer in us when we sin. First, I believe if he leaves us every time we sin, that wouldnt’ make sense since we are constantly sinful people. Secondly, I don’t see scriptural evidence to support that. I guess what I’m asking you guys for is scriputre that supports that. That would help in my understanding.

I’m really not arguing. I’m just trying to sort through my lack of faith in the Catholic Church.

It is just that you cannot make a case for your statements beginning with your bible passages in the direction you were going without ultimately denying Christ.

I’m not sure how you read my denial of Christ in any of my posts.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Okay…regarding the fact that Caholic doctrine teaches that you can lose the Holy Spirit when you commit mortal sin. I researched a little today in Scriptures, and found those I list below. These seem to contradict that teaching. How can this be?

Hebrews 13: 5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

Ephisians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[boppaid]

Jonathan, thanks for taking the time to respond!

I guess this goes back to the “faith alone” doctrine, then. If you believe in faith alone, then you wouldn’t believe that Ephisians is referring to Baptism, which is a whole other topic I suppose.

This is why I get so frustrated. Thank you for your help. I will continue to read through Hebrews to try to gain more perspective.