Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

[tequilamac]

I thought I’d find some light here . . . ha! Nothing but discord, disunity . . . emotional responses . . . memo to myself: Stick with the Church, screwed up as it has been in many matters over the centuries-- except those concerned with faith and morals, that is – in that she speaks with the voice and authority of Christ, this I firmly believe and always will, thank God – or else there is no moral absolute and we are all free to do what each thinks is OK which has spawned the sickening chaos of our time . . . Hang on to that with my fingernails . . .

I know. Tht is one of the biggest turnoffs about catholics to others. That we are humans with foibles, egos, discord, disunity. I mean being a devout Catholic myself I have been known to slam a few doors and break a few dishes in my married life. And still call it sacred.
This more than anything else is what the rest of the world resents about Catholics. Our humanity.

 

[Damascus]

Wow. Sounds tame next to some of the things I did. Lets just say there has been a need for some remodeling and repair work here. Lets just say that I nearly caused a car wreck from the shouting and cussing I did one day in my back yard that nearly killed someone who was driving by thinking I was being murdered.

Hmm, I could go on but I would need another thread. Like when I threw all of someones clothes and personal stuff out the window last week. I ripped up photos and the works. This is just the sugar coated version mind you.

 

[Linkowski]

…the Church offers all sorts of loopholes, that’s why I returned to the Church, simply because the Church proper (if not the posters in this thread) actually WANTS people to be saved.

The truth is the truth. Is not the truth what it is and it cannot be compromised. I quote this from the Catechism…

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. **

This means, I, as a Baptist now (previously a Catholic), will not be saved. I have to be honest, I never knew the way to eternal life in my entire upbringing as a Catholic and found it in scripture in a Baptist Church. I was simply going through the motions of the sacraments my entire youth through Confirmation not knowing the way other than to “be good”. The Catholic Church cannot save anyone really if you read into scripture…it is God that does the saving…

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 NKJV 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

If it is the case of ignorance that can allow someone to be saved, then what we can do is not tell the gospel to anyone or tell anyone about the Church - then through ignorance all will be saved. I find these loopholes to be a concern and to cause nothing but confusion.

 

[Damascus]

Dear Linkowski,

Your problem is that you are again trying to speak for the Catholic Church.

Like it or dont, you have just as much right to salvation and guess what?

Like it or dont its going to be through Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church in some mysterious way or another.

You dont get it. Thats obvious. You had no proper instruction as a Catholic and most likely you will always want to interpret her teachings for yourself.

 

[tequilamac]

The truth is the truth. Is not the truth what it is and it cannot be compromised. I quote this from the Catechism…

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. **

This means, I, as a Baptist now (previously a Catholic), will not be saved. I have to be honest, I never knew the way to eternal life in my entire upbringing as a Catholic and found it in scripture in a Baptist Church. I was simply going through the motions of the sacraments my entire youth through Confirmation not knowing the way other than to “be good”. The Catholic Church cannot save anyone really if you read into scripture…it is God that does the saving…

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 NKJV 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

If it is the case of ignorance that can allow someone to be saved, then what we can do is not tell the gospel to anyone or tell anyone about the Church - then through ignorance all will be saved. I find these loopholes to be a concern and to cause nothing but confusion.

You are quite correct. Fact is that if you were once Catholic, denied the faith, and joined and then taught a false faith, such as Baptist, and do not repent, then the chances are you will not achieve Heaven. Sorry but true.
On the other hand, do you have a chance at salvation? The same chance as every other Tom Dick and Harry on the planet yes. And for you, since it was a mortal sin, if you repent with perfect contrition, you will garner higher favor in Heaven than every other Tom, Dick, and Harry.
For you the part that will stick in your craw is the idea that you would have to repent at all.
For other Catholics, what will stick in their craw is that if you do repent, you will be viewed with much higher favor possibly than those who were never tempted to leave.
Either way, both sides, yours and Catholics, will probably cry foul.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Good Evening everyone!

I may be wrong but I have noticed a trend among many of us when discussing “Catholic teaching” or “Catholic doctrine.”

Many postings indicate an inability to distinguish religion (doctrine and dogma) from culture (sacramentals and rosaries, for example) in our Church.

The glaring example on this thread is the statement about the Church changing its mind, example given: altar girls. I know some of you have alluded to it but it really needs to be stressed that altar girls and altar boys or not eating meat on Fridays is a cultural expression of our faith and our worship. It is not a doctrine or dogma of the Church.

While many of us use these terms interchangeably, there is a real difference between the two. All the teaching of the Church on faith and morals (like the Creeds and the Commandments) are called ‘doctrines.’ The word doctrina simply means ‘teaching.’

Dogma is a stronger (Greek) term meaning that something has been formally defined by the Church (such as the Immaculate Conception in 1950 by Pope Pius XII) after centuries (usually) of doctrinal status.

All the moral teachings of the Church (on marriage and family life, for example) are doctrines. For the better part of 2000 years, few Christians have contested what the Church taught about the indissoluble marriage, adultery, contraception, abortion and homosexuality.

Under such circumstances there was no reson to define formally its teachings on sexuality. Pope John Paul II had begun doing just that with his Encyclical on Human Sexuality. Now we are moving towards making dogma of a moral demand.

With this background consider a rephrasing of the thread’s premise: Are Catholics required to believe everything the Church teaches?

The answer is no. What we Catholics are required to believe and follow and live are the “sacred and certain doctrine of the Church,” that is, the truth revealed by Christ and the moral principles “which flow from human nature itself.” (Dignitatis humanae, 14).

I am not a strong Christian. I have been remiss in many of my Catholic (ie, Christian) responsibilities. But I believe, freely, in what the Church teaches as dogma and those doctrines which are morally based principles (the example is the Decalogue) flowing “from human nature itself.”

Pope John Paul II said in his book, On the Threshold of Hope, that non-Catholics will go to Heaven (for many of the reasons already written in this thread) and that we who know the Church Jesus founded are held to a higher standard if we deny Christ or His teachings.

Finally, liking or not liking a doctrine is immaterial.

Look to the break in our political culture over Iraq and other political issues: each side rightfully calls itself patriotic and with America’s best interests in mind. Yet, look at the vitriol and discourteous public behavior. What doctrine defines what is an American? It isn’t clear.

However, if I seek to overthrow the US government, then the issue is clear: I have violated a provision in the US Constitution and am subject to federal prosecution.

The political structure has rules, regulations, traditions and interpretations by a final authority: the US Supreme Court. Within that structure, there is a finality to what is the law of the land (at least until the next change of court personnel!).

However, in the Church our structure is not for this world or for the country’s laws we happen to be under but for seeking God and doing His will among our brethren. It is not a democracy.
And the absolute monarchy of the Vatican testifies to the single-mindedness of the Church’s approach.

I’m sorry if I offend, but it is a banquet prepared not a smorgasbord or cafeteria line to pick and choose what doctrine or dogma fits our ‘feelings’ or lifestyle or current living arrangements.

The Church is not of this world, it is for the Kingdom of God

 

[Cranch]

Don’t think we can say that cafeteria catholics won’t be in Heaven Marsha. In fact, the good news of the Gospel is this in bold:

Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons. newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Oh, it is just soooooo unfair. God always takes such a hopeful bent. Not only do the cafeteria types get into heaven but they may be more highly favored!

You are quite correct. Fact is that if you were once Catholic, denied the faith, and joined and then taught a false faith, such as Baptist, and do not repent, then the chances are you will not achieve Heaven. Sorry but true.
On the other hand, do you have a chance at salvation? The same chance as every other Tom Dick and Harry on the planet yes. And for you, since it was a mortal sin, if you repent with perfect contrition, you will garner higher favor in Heaven than every other Tom, Dick, and Harry.
For you the part that will stick in your craw is the idea that you would have to repent at all.
For other Catholics, what will stick in their craw is that if you do repent, you will be viewed with much higher favor possibly than those who were never tempted to leave.
Either way, both sides, yours and Catholics, will probably cry foul.

tequilamac - I believe you’ve misinterpreted the bolded reference in the first post quoted above and therefore made a wrong speculation in the second post. I’ve found that the Church always seems to make sense. If I’m right, the key word in your reference from New Advent is categories. It is plural. And the word itself indicates separate classifications. That is why I believe the “last-named categories” refers back not to “those fortunate Catholics” (a single group), but to “catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans” in the previous sentence (multiple, separate groups). Now it makes sense: repentant Catholics “are more signally favoured” than Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, etc. Not more favoured than Catholics who have sinned less. What do you think?

 

[tequilamac]

tequilamac - I believe you’ve misinterpreted the bolded reference in the first post quoted above and therefore made a wrong speculation in the second post. I’ve found that the Church always seems to make sense. If I’m right, the key word in your reference from New Advent is categories. It is plural. And the word itself indicates separate classifications. That is why I believe the “last-named categories” refers back not to “those fortunate Catholics” (a single group), but to “catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans” in the previous sentence (multiple, separate groups). Now it makes sense: repentant Catholics “are more signally favoured” than Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, etc. Not more favoured than Catholics who have sinned less. What do you think?

What do I think? I think you need to re read the parable of the prodigal son. And remember there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one repentant sinner than all the good guys.

 

[Linkowski]

Interesting replies,

So, I am not saved because I left the Catholic Church. You say that I denied the faith but, I have to be honest, I never had it. And what you are saying is that I must be Catholic to be saved. And why is that?

1. I have faith in Christ and His work on the cross as the payment for my sin.
2. I am showing the evidences of salvation as my life has changed by His grace. First John gives us all of the items that we need to examine in our lives for our salvation…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What does that Catholic Church have that I am missing? To be in Christ, do I have to do anything else?

 

[mlchance]

By starling’s standard, anybody who holds certain principles as true and then violates them out of weakness is a hypocrite. So, that pretty much includes every last one of us, doesn’t it?

T. H. White observed that all good men are hypocrites. It is part and parcel of being flawed creatures in a fallen world that are still held up to the highest standards of perfection.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Linkowski;

Your reply shows a misunderstanding of Catholic (since the days of St Paul and the Apostles when it was forming to the present time) teaching of the Cycle of Redemption.

“Once saved, always saved” is a Protestant concept given life by some ex-priest in 16th century Germany. There is no scriptural, documented (early Church Fathers) or Tradition which supports this view.

Christ redeemed mankind from sin. But salvation is another matter altogether, and it’s a two-way street. Christ’s sacrifice laid the foundation of redemption but each of us has to build on it, working out our own salvation in fear and trembling. (check 1Cor 3:11-15, 10:12, Phil 2:12, Mt 24:42-51 - and notice that nobody has any assurance of salvation, any more than you know when you’re going to die; seeSir 5:5-9, 1 Cor 10:1-12, for example).

For the Church, all of this means that this earthly life is consequential: what you do here and now influences what happens to you in the hereafter. Of course you have to have faith; you have to believe, to know and understand that God is God, that Jesus is Christ, and you have to hold the rest of the teachings of Christianity close to your heart. But faith alone is not enough to get you home safely after the journey of this life.

Adam and Eve had perfect faith. They knew God personally. But their deliberate act got them evicted from Eden. The ancient Hebrews had faith (their word ‘trust’) and they knew the importance of acts (Tobias 4:7-12; Dt 30:10-14, Lv 6:17-10 and quite a few of the Psalms!).

Even Jesus taught this in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 7:24-27, Lk 6:46-49) and His account of the process of judgment shows that everybody facing it has plenty of faith (they all say “Lord, Lord”) but the sheep who did the right things are saved while the goats who did not aren’t.

Remember the returning Christ, “Behold, I come quickly! And my reward is with me, to render unto each one according to his works.” (Rv 22:12).

That’s why the Church teaches that “faith without works is dead,” as St James put it in Jas 2:17, 26.

All this comes from the Church, instituted by Christ.

As a Quality Engineer I would think that your inspection of what the Church has taught and continues to teach was more thorough and precise.

I hope this helps clarify your misunderstanding

Pax Christi

 

[boppaid]

Linkowski, your posts are very meaningful to me. I am a Catholic at a crossroads. I have been attending BOTH Catholic mass and a Baptist service weekly. I am so torn on my faith. Guilt and fear keeps me going to the Catholic church. For one thing, I fear: what if they are right (even though I don’t believet hat they are) that I will not get into heaven if I leave it. That scares me. Yet, I find God in the Baptist church. I find Christ there ina way I never experienced in Mass. I’m so sad.

 

[djrakowski]

T. H. White observed that all good men are hypocrites. It is part and parcel of being flawed creatures in a fallen world that are still held up to the highest standards of perfection.

– Mark L. Chance.

Agreed.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Boppaid,

Is this because the Baptist services are easily understood and fun to participate in (clapping and singing)? If not, then what does a Baptist service do to give you the feeling that God is present more than a Catholic Mass?

Many of us seek camaraderie and companionship in “worship services” and that is fine but an understanding of what the Mass is and how the Eucharist is the True Presence of Jesus brings more joy and gratitude to me than being in the television audience of Oprah, or on a chat room for ‘Lost’ and 'Desperate Housewives."

Don’t confuse nice people with the Presence or you will surely be disappointed. There is no end to creative, personality based (see Haggard’s ‘church’ in Colorado) “worship services.”

If you are speaking of God in Church then to a Catholic it means the Eucharist. Please clarify your points, thanks!

 

[Cranch]

What do I think? I think you need to re read the parable of the prodigal son. And remember there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one repentant sinner than all the good guys.

If you think that Christ’s message in the parable of the prodigal son results in a lot of good guys with something “stuck in their craw”, that’s up to you. :ehh: I just don’t think you can base this idea on the New Advent citation in question for reasons previously stated. Here’s some thoughts about what you asked me to remember (Luke 15): The context helps us understand the lessons of the parable. Verses 1-2 tell us that sinners and tax collectors were being taught by Jesus. Pharisees then criticized Jesus – not for teaching them, but for eating with them, which was a sign of social acceptance. The Pharisees tried hard to be righteous, and they were disturbed that Jesus accepted people who hadn’t been trying hard. Perhaps they were worried that Jesus was making it too easy on people, and his acceptance might encourage others to be lazy.
Jesus then gave the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin, both illustrating the point that God rejoices about each sinner who repents. “There will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent” (verse 7). **There’s no such thing as a person who has no need for repentance, but the Pharisees weren’t yet aware of that. ****There would be rejoicing for them, too, if they would accept it.

**www.wcg.org/lit/bible/gospels/lostson.htm

 

[tequilamac]

Interesting replies,

So, I am not saved because I left the Catholic Church. You say that I denied the faith but, I have to be honest, I never had it. And what you are saying is that I must be Catholic to be saved. And why is that?

1. I have faith in Christ and His work on the cross as the payment for my sin.
2. I am showing the evidences of salvation as my life has changed by His grace. First John gives us all of the items that we need to examine in our lives for our salvation…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What does that Catholic Church have that I am missing? To be in Christ, do I have to do anything else?

In your case I’m afraid so.

You would have to repent with perfect contrition and return to the Church.

Leaving it and denouncing it especially for a truly false faith means
a. you have already been automatically excommunicated from the Eucharist anyway,
b. have attempted to take others away with you in which case it would have been better if you had been thrown into the sea with a millstone around your neck,
c. if you have been re-baptised and even if you have not you would have to make a series of renunciations of the satanic elements in that new religion,
d. receive absolution after your renunciations and confession, in order to achieve salvation.

See this is the thing:

It is better for a person to have never been Catholic in the first place to die in that condition than for a Catholic to die outside of the Church. Remember the part about putting one’s hand to the plow? It’s truth.

As far as feeling you had no faith while in the Church, whose fault is that? I have no rabbits in my hat no aces up my sleeve either as faith is not magic. You have to work for it, in order to retain it, otherwise it goes bye bye through neglect- a serious capital sin called sloth.

So you come to the forum, tell us you were Catholic, indulged in the capital sin of sloth, renounced the faith, and went elsewhere, taught others to do the same and now you want to know if you can be saved? In the bottom of your heart you know the answer to that one.

It is purely due to the patience and charity of Jesus Christ on the Cross that anyone here would bother to answer you.

As far as your PM message: yes. As soon as you confess to a priest, renounce your evil spirits, and return to God’s grace, you may have my e-mail address. By then I should, God willing, be the last person you desire to speak to anyway.

 

[tequilamac]

If you think that Christ’s message in the parable of the prodigal son results in a lot of good guys with something “stuck in their craw”, that’s up to you. QUOTE]

I have no idea what you are carrying on about, hon. Never said that. Is this a big chip on your shoulder or just a little one easily left behind?

 

[Karianne]

With all of your Catholic education this is a response unworthy of you.
You have a good deal of energy trying to justify your position yet I have not seen a compelling argument from you to make it clear to all of us how you can rationalize your choices.

Someone once said not to cast pearls before swine.

 

[fix]

The new man in the position of Secretary of State in the Vatican, a position second only to that of the Pope himself, has said that dissident Catholics are more worrisome than atheists. Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone’s comments were published in the December 7 edition of L’Avvenire, the official newspaper of the Italian bishops’ conference…

In April of this year the Pope signalled the loving way of dealing with dissidents in the Church - “drastic severity.” Addressing a crowd of 30,000 the Pope pointed to the Apostle of love, St. John. “No voice in the New Testament rises with greater force to highlight the reality and the duty of fraternal love between Christians,” he said, “yet the same voice addresses itself with drastic severity to the adversaries who were members of the community but are so no longer.”
lifesite.net/ldn/2006/dec/06121201.html

 

[Cranch]

Cranch;1733460:

If you think that Christ’s message in the parable of the prodigal son results in a lot of good guys with something “stuck in their craw”, that’s up to you. QUOTE]

I have no idea what you are carrying on about, hon. Never said that. Is this a big chip on your shoulder or just a little one easily left behind?

Did you say this?:

On the other hand, do you have a chance at salvation? The same chance as every other Tom Dick and Harry on the planet yes. And for you, since it was a mortal sin, if you repent with perfect contrition, you will garner higher favor in Heaven than every other Tom, Dick, and Harry.

For you the part that will stick in your craw is the idea that you would have to repent at all.
** For other Catholics, what will stick in their craw** is that if you do repent, you will be viewed with much higher favor possibly than those who were never tempted to leave.
Either way, both sides, yours and Catholics, will probably cry foul.

When I suggested this was a wrong supposition, did you say this?:

What do I think? I think you need to re read the parable of the prodigal son.

And remember there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one repentant sinner than ****all the good guys.

If you’re not making a connection here that justifies my last post, than I’m confused as to your meaning. Just checked: no chips of any size on my shoulders.