Catholics that say they'd never have any biological children for this reason

[Rau]

It’s not the number of children you have, it’s what you do to keep from having them in going against the guidance of the Catholic Church. If you marry with the intentions of NEVER having any children, then that marriage would be invalid. God Bless, Memaw

May I repeat something said earlier in the thread… I believe your last sentence is correct, and “never” is the word we saw used in the OP’s post. BUT, I don’t think this necessarily fits with the OP’s situation. She does not expresses an arbitrary intention to avoid children. She intends to avoid only for so long as the Tay Sachs risk (which I and many others see as a Just Reason to use NFP) persists. It seems very likely that if this situation could be overcome, eg. Due to a cure, the couple would happily have children. That might not happen, but it may, and it would likely be their prayer that it does.

Were the couple’s reasons (to avoid) frivolous, I would agree with you entirely.

 

[Memaw]

Wow. This is truly sad and disappointing. Let’s just ignore the fact that this couple did something extremely selfless by taking in an already living, breathing child in need because apparently they’re being selfish and faithless to kids that don’t even exist. That and I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but theirs and God, what they’re using to avoid kids. They adopted a child. They HAVE a child. I don’t think I would want to be a part of any church or community that says their marriage is invalid just because they decided to give a child in need a home rather than have their own.

Their marriage would not be invalid because they gave a child in need a home. That actually doesn’t have anything to do with this whole situation. The problem is if they entered marriage with the intent to never have their own biological children. Whether or not they can use NFP in their situation, I am not qualified to say. They would have to talk to a priest about that. Actually I don’t think any of us are qualified to give this couple advice. I don’t think anyone is ignoring the fact that they adopted a little girl, many couples adopt children and still have their own. Or they become Foster Parents.I admire that. My husband and I tried to become foster parents many years ago but we were turned down because of my husbands health. And we already had 5 of our own. We were told I wasn’t able to have anymore children. But we had 3 more after that, So God knows best.God Bless, Memaw

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Wow. This is truly sad and disappointing. Let’s just ignore the fact that this couple did something extremely selfless by taking in an already living, breathing child in need because apparently they’re being selfish and faithless to kids that don’t even exist. That and I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but theirs and God, what they’re using to avoid kids. They adopted a child. They HAVE a child. I don’t think I would want to be a part of any church or community that says their marriage is invalid just because they decided to give a child in need a home rather than have their own.

Nobody is ignoring the great fact that they adopted. Good for them.
The old argument that it is nobodies business a couple and God is defiantly not a pro life or religious view to have. It does matter. As Catholics we believe that sex is both procreative and unitive. This has been taught since the beginning of our faith. Add to the fact that a popular form of ABC has abortifacient qualities and then it gets really demonic.

They HAVE a child. I don’t think I would want to be a part of any church or community that says their marriage is invalid just because they decided to give a child in need a home rather than have their own

So I assume you feel the same way about homosexual “marriages” Because your argument would apply to that situation almost perfectly. “hey what does it matter what they do in the bedroom, THEY ADOPTED A CHILD! They need to be recognized in the Catholic Church as married!”

Curious.
Would you feel the same way if the form of ABC they used was abortion. Would you say that because they adopted a child they could kill their own?

It does matter how they avoid. It does matter what the intentions are.

 

[Rau]

Wow. This is truly sad and disappointing. Let’s just ignore the fact that this couple did something extremely selfless by taking in an already living, breathing child in need because apparently they’re being selfish and faithless to kids that don’t even exist. That and I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but theirs and God, what they’re using to avoid kids. They adopted a child. They HAVE a child. I don’t think I would want to be a part of any church or community that says their marriage is invalid just because they decided to give a child in need a home rather than have their own.

The fact of the adoption suggests strongly the desire and willingness of the couple to share themselves with children and to do good. I don’t know what you mean by “its no one’s business but theirs and God’s what they’re using to avoid kids”. Do you mean there are no absolutes here - so perhaps God gave (them) an OK for abortions? Catholic teaching would be that the prohibition on abortion (as an intentional act) is absolute.

Your statement (that I’ve quoted above) might be more appropriate if applied to the circumstances giving rise to NFP - ultimately, an individual’s conscience and personal capacities and circumstances are key factors. We can’t actually know for sure whether a particular individual had a Just Reason for NFP - we can only think about what judgement we would make for ourselves, or make broad statements like - “that reason sounds Just”, or “that sounds dubious”. It is impossible to set absolute rules here.

 

[Memaw]

May I repeat something said earlier in the thread… I believe your last sentence is correct, and “never” is the word we saw used in the OP’s post. BUT, I don’t think this necessarily fits with the OP’s situation. She does not expresses an arbitrary intention to avoid children. She intends to avoid only for so long as the Tay Sachs risk (which I and many others see as a Just Reason to use NFP) persists. It seems very likely that if this situation could be overcome, eg. Due to a cure, the couple would happily have children. That might not happen, but it may, and it would likely be their prayer that it does.

Were the couple’s reasons (to avoid) frivolous, I would agree with you entirely.

Well I may be a bank robber but if I ever win the lottery big, I will stop robbing banks. . Does that make robbing banks OK until I win. Of course not. and neither does your idea fit. Chances are there will never be cure, in her lifetime anyway. We can’t base our moral decisions on “what if”. "What I and many others see as a “Just Reason” doesn’t matter. We’re not God. We’re not the Holy Spirit guiding the Church. That’s why I say we’re not the right ones to be giving them advice. I just try to state what the Church actually teaches, and that’s what we all should believe, especially if we’re Catholic. If we truly love this couple we should pray that their decisions will lead them to Heaven because that will be for all Eternity. Eternity will make up for all the suffering we do on this Earth. Life can be tough and believe me there are those who have to make tough decisions every day but I hope and pray they choose to do God’s will, not their own. Isn’t that what Faith is all about? Thy Will, NOT MINE, Lord. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Allegra]

A way to lower the risk of birth defects and preterm births is to marry and have children at younger ages than what is becoming common today. Don’t hold your breath waiting for the Church to start telling young people to marry though.

That won’t prevent Tay-Sachs. It’s a completely genetic disorder.

 

[Rau]

Well I may be a bank robber but if I ever win the lottery big, I will stop robbing banks. . Does that make robbing banks OK until I win. Of course not. and neither does your idea fit. Chances are there will never be cure, in her lifetime anyway. We can’t base our moral decisions on “what if”. "What I and many others see as a “Just Reason” doesn’t matter. We’re not God. We’re not the Holy Spirit guiding the Church. That’s why I say we’re not the right ones to be giving them advice. I just try to state what the Church actually teaches, and that’s what we all should believe, especially if we’re Catholic. If we truly love this couple we should pray that their decisions will lead them to Heaven because that will be for all Eternity. Eternity will make up for all the suffering we do on this Earth. Life can be tough and believe me there are those who have to make tough decisions every day but I hope and pray they choose to do God’s will, not their own. Isn’t that what Faith is all about? Thy Will, NOT MINE, Lord. God Bless, Memaw

I (we) do not seek to give advice, or play God, but rather interpret how church teaching might be applied to a particular circumstance.

Bank robbers sin - so you are using as a premise (in your analogy), the very conclusion you seek to argue!! That kind of reasoning does not work!

What individuals understand to be Just Reasons does matter, as the Church leaves that discernment to individuals and their consciences.

I suggest we agree to disagree.

 

[Memaw]

I (we) do not seek to give advice, or play God, but rather interpret how church teaching might be applied to a particular circumstance.

Bank robbers sin - so you are using as a premise (in your analogy), the very conclusion you seek to argue!! That kind of reasoning does not work!

What individuals understand to be Just Reasons does matter, as the Church leaves that discernment to individuals and their consciences.

I suggest we agree to disagree.

I don’t think soooo, or else we could all do what we want according to our own discernment. That’s what has lead to so much immorality in our society already. Jesus gave us His Church to guide us and that’s the only safe way to go. A wrong never makes a right. A poorly informed conscience or one in error is certainly not the way to go. We are responsible to make sure our conscience is rightly informed and the only way to do that is to turn to the teachings of the Catholic Church. God Bless, Memaw

 

[severus68]

I don’t think soooo, or else we could all do what we want according to our own discernment. That’s what has lead to so much immorality in our society already. Jesus gave us His Church to guide us and that’s the only safe way to go. A wrong never makes a right. A poorly informed conscience or one in error is certainly not the way to go. We are responsible to make sure our conscience is rightly informed and the only way to do that is to turn to the teachings of the Catholic Church. God Bless, Memaw

No, the Church says that a couple and only that couple makes the decision. . They can , of course, consult a priest for advice.

 

[Memaw]

No, the Church says that a couple and only that couple makes the decision. . They can , of course, consult a priest for advice.

Sorry but your way off base with that one, You should talk to a priest maybe. God Bless, Memaw

 

[severus68]

Sorry but your way off base with that one, You should talk to a priest maybe. God Bless, Memaw

I would say the same to you. The links have been posted many times on CAF.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I would say the same to you. The links have been posted many times on CAF.

Of course a couple and only the couple should make the decision. I think Memaws point is that a couple should do this being informed by the Church and what She teaches. I certainly have no problem suggesting that any couple should educate themselves and their souls in this subject and that the Church and Her theology should be the driving force behind informing their consciences. The common answer of “just pray about it” or “just you and your spouse decide.” is just not sufficient. Personally, I think this is all fueled by a “keep God and the Church out of the bedroom” mentality. I think the Church should not only be involved but should be even more involved.
NFP and “grave or serious or just” reasons are left up to the couple. I cannot think of another moral subject where the Church guides us less than this very one. Perhaps because it is a newer subject and the Church acts upon Her own time. But I think in the future we will be given more guidance on this issue. For now we do have the Church to guide and there is some biblical and Church tradition to inform our selves about and to align ourselves with God’s will properly.

I think it is quite wise to advise any couple in any situation to seek out a priest or other Church source to help them decide. This is not just a study and decide in one weekend for all time subject. It should be prayed about, discerned and revisited regularly and in front of the Blessed Sacrament as much as possible!

And that is my advice for a previous poster who tried to get me to pin down medical issues that I deemed worthy to avoid. Each situation is different. If we could construct hypothetical couples we could debate what each one should do. But in my opinion too many people decide that since it is up to each couple and each situation is different that it gives them some kind of blank check with their own morality. It does not.

It also matters how the couple avoids. And in this original situation I think it is a sign of if they are in tune with God’s will for their family is if they are following God’s will in family planning.

I’m assuming they are not. I could be wrong but the OP balked at that subject all together, and not many NFP users make blanket statements like “never have any biological children.” If they are using NFP, they are more confident in their practice of it that any couple I have ever met to make sweeping statements like that!

 

[severus68]

Of course a couple and only the couple should make the decision. I think Memaws point is that a couple should do this being informed by the Church and what She teaches. I certainly have no problem suggesting that any couple should educate themselves and their souls in this subject and that the Church and Her theology should be the driving force behind informing their consciences. The common answer of “just pray about it” or “just you and your spouse decide.” is just not sufficient. Personally, I think this is all fueled by a “keep God and the Church out of the bedroom” mentality. I think the Church should not only be involved but should be even more involved.
NFP and “grave or serious or just” reasons are left up to the couple. I cannot think of another moral subject where the Church guides us less than this very one. Perhaps because it is a newer subject and the Church acts upon Her own time. But I think in the future we will be given more guidance on this issue. For now we do have the Church to guide and there is some biblical and Church tradition to inform our selves about and to align ourselves with God’s will properly.

I think it is quite wise to advise any couple in any situation to seek out a priest or other Church source to help them decide. This is not just a study and decide in one weekend for all time subject. It should be prayed about, discerned and revisited regularly and in front of the Blessed Sacrament as much as possible!

And that is my advice for a previous poster who tried to get me to pin down medical issues that I deemed worthy to avoid. Each situation is different. If we could construct hypothetical couples we could debate what each one should do. But in my opinion too many people decide that since it is up to each couple and each situation is different that it gives them some kind of blank check with their own morality. It does not.

It also matters how the couple avoids. And in this original situation I think it is a sign of if they are in tune with God’s will for their family is if they are following God’s will in family planning.

I’m assuming they are not. I could be wrong but the OP balked at that subject all together, and not many NFP users make blanket statements like “never have any biological children.” If they are using NFP, they are more confident in their practice of it that any couple I have ever met to make sweeping statements like that!

So we do not disagree. I do think it would be difficult for the Church to come up with concise criterea as circumstances vary so much and only God knows what in anyone’s heart.
The OP may not know and I have said that my opinion was on the assumption that NFP or abstinence is are used. I don’t think we should make any or the most uncharitable assumptions as a 3rd party asked the question.

 

[Rau]

So we do not disagree. I do think it would be difficult for the Church to come up with concise criterea as circumstances vary so much and only God knows what in anyone’s heart.
The OP may not know and I have said that my opinion was on the assumption that NFP or abstinence is are used. I don’t think we should make any or the most uncharitable assumptions as a 3rd party asked the question.

I agree with both your points. It is difficult to see the Church becoming prescriptive beyond the principles that it refers to now. It does not seem feasible to codify behaviours around number of children, or financial burden, or details of lifestyle or which medical risks qualify and which don’t, etc.

While the OP did not specify that NFP was the adopted measure, I chose to “assume” that for the sake of the discussion, given the whole discussion would become “black and white” (and hence not worth debating) if artificial birth control was the intended means of avoiding pregnancy.

 

[severus68]

I agree with both your points. It is difficult to see the Church becoming prescriptive beyond the principles that it refers to now. It does not seem feasible to codify behaviours around number of children, or financial burden, or details of lifestyle or which medical risks qualify and which don’t, etc.

While the OP did not specify that NFP was the adopted measure, I chose to “assume” that for the sake of the discussion, given the whole discussion would become “black and white” (and hence not worth debating) if artificial birth control was the intended means of avoiding pregnancy.

Agreed.

 

[Rau]

…

And that is my advice for a previous poster who tried to get me to pin down medical issues that I deemed worthy to avoid. Each situation is different. If we could construct hypothetical couples we could debate what each one should do. But in my opinion too many people decide that since it is up to each couple and each situation is different that it gives them some kind of blank check with their own morality. It does not.

I’m the “previous poster”. I was asking what kind of medical issues you viewed as justifying NFP, and you replied that there are many, but didn’t elaborate.

I agree with much of what you had to say in your last post to Severus68, but I would like to understand what separates the medical issues that you see as justifying NFP, from those that don’t. Could you list a few that do justify?

 

[Eleanor61]

My son has decided never to have children. He is not married but will probably be someday. He will, of course, marry a woman who agrees to this, and does have a serious relationship currently.
He has an autism spectrum disorder, severe Aspergers, as well as a progressive neuromuscular disorder, hereditary sensory motor neuropathy. He inherited both from me. There is a very high statistical chance of passing them on, and only one parent need be a carrier. I would never have chosen not to have him, even if I knew all the facts at the time, but I totally respect his decision. He would not be a good parent. He is not a practicing Catholic, and will likely be marrying a non-catholic since he lives in China, where he is an English professor.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m the “previous poster”. I was asking what kind of medical issues you viewed as justifying NFP, and you replied that there are many, but didn’t elaborate.

I agree with much of what you had to say in your last post to Severus68, but I would like to understand what separates the medical issues that you see as justifying NFP, from those that don’t. Could you list a few that do justify?

No, I can’t. You could provide a hypothetical couple and a hypothetical situation and we could speculate. The Church could. But I can’t. Rest assured that they do exist. But in my opinion they exist on a scale much smaller than people think.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I do think it would be difficult for the Church to come up with concise criterea as circumstances vary so much and only God knows what in anyone’s heart.

The Church does this all the time. In subjects more complicated than this.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My son has decided never to have children. He is not married but will probably be someday. He will, of course, marry a woman who agrees to this, and does have a serious relationship currently.
He has an autism spectrum disorder, severe Aspergers, as well as a progressive neuromuscular disorder, hereditary sensory motor neuropathy. He inherited both from me. There is a very high statistical chance of passing them on, and only one parent need be a carrier. I would never have chosen not to have him, even if I knew all the facts at the time, but I totally respect his decision. He would not be a good parent. He is not a practicing Catholic, and will likely be marrying a non-catholic since he lives in China, where he is an English professor.

What does your son think the purpose of marriage is? Is it just about companionship for him? Being a Catholic you understand what we teach about marriage and you probably understand why. Do you support this?