Catholics that say they'd never have any biological children for this reason

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I hope I’m not intruding, but I think what he’s trying to say is not that you have to consult a priest, but that your decision must be based on Church teaching. So I think he would be perfectly fine with a couple who has carefully formed their conscience according to Church teaching (Humanae Vitae etc) spending time in prayer to discern whether or not they had a good reason to avoid deciding to avoid children on their own without consulting a priest. I think you two actually agree and are speaking past each other. But then again I could be mistaken.

I would agree with that as long as it is a Church formed conscience. And is not necessarily ones “interpretation” or bending of Church theology.

 

[maryjk]

You are backtracking. At this point I am not sure what the fruit of this discussion is at all.
**You are trying to make the point that one need not seek council of anyone other than a doctor. **

I am saying that one doesn’t HAVE to seek the advice of a priest.

That is all I am saying. That’s it. We can dance all around the topic but all I am saying is that there is no obligation to talk to anyone. A couple can discuss it, pray and come to the conclusion that NFP is a moral solution.

That there is no obligation to talk to a priest, your bishop or even read the writings of the Church fathers.

If you have a well form conscience, you can use it.

I hope I’m not intruding, but I think what he’s trying to say is not that you have to consult a priest, but that your decision must be based on Church teaching.** So I think he would be perfectly fine with a couple who has carefully formed their conscience according to Church teaching (Humanae Vitae etc) spending time in prayer to discern whether or not they had a good reason to avoid deciding to avoid children on their own without consulting a priest.** I think you two actually agree and are speaking past each other. But then again I could be mistaken.

Sounds good to me.

But, and I could be wrong, sounds like Hoosier Daddy is going to have to add some qualifiers.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am saying that one doesn’t HAVE to seek the advice of a priest.

That is all I am saying. That’s it. We can dance all around the topic but all I am saying is that there is no obligation to talk to anyone. A couple can discuss it, pray and come to the conclusion that NFP is a moral solution.

That there is no obligation to talk to a priest, your bishop or even read the writings of the Church fathers.

If you have a well form conscience, you can use it.

Sounds good to me.

But, and I could be wrong, sounds like Hoosier Daddy is going to have to add some qualifiers.

Does one have to seek the advice of a doctor?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But, and I could be wrong, sounds like Hoosier Daddy is going to have to add some qualifiers.

Nice shot!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am saying that one doesn’t HAVE to seek the advice of a priest.
.

Mary. Where did I say one HAS to seek the advice of a priest? Where? I didn’t what I said was that one needs to consult the Church. A common way for that to happen is to seek the advice of a priest. I DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING ME OF. And we have been over and over this. Is it that important to you to win?

 

[nodito]

I would also like to address your concept of “the church”

What Church are you speaking of? The Church of me? Because that is what you describe and it sounds radically protestant.

God’s Church is the Holy Catholic and apostolic one you experience at the Mass. It is to Her that Jesus gave the keys. It is quite mistaken to think those keys are the possession of a married couple that prays by themselves. And that church which you allude to could never be the One True Church because it would be a different Church in each bedroom in the world.

Well, I didn’t intend to address the concept of Church at all. I would agree the Church is that institution founded by Christ, given the keys of the kingdom, protected from error in matters of faith and morals, guided by the Holy Spirit, led in person by the Holy Father, etc.

That Church that we agree is the One True Church has never taught that married couples must consult it before using natural family planning. Certainly couples are required to have just reasons for using NFP, but the Church has never said that it must vet these reasons prior to a couple morally deciding to abstain during the woman’s fertile times.

When you argue that couples “must consult the Church” I wondered where you were getting this from and concluded it was possible that you were referring to prayerful private discernment, because to insist otherwise is to require something of couples that the Church does not require of them herself.

 

[Rence]

I hope I’m not intruding, but I think what he’s trying to say is not that you have to consult a priest, but that your decision must be based on Church teaching.

She is already basing her answers on Church teaching. T

So I think he would be perfectly fine with a couple who has carefully formed their conscience according to Church teaching (Humanae Vitae etc) spending time in prayer to discern whether or not they had a good reason to avoid deciding to avoid children on their own without consulting a priest. I think you two actually agree and are speaking past each other. But then again I could be mistaken.

Mary and you are in agreement here. If a couple has read the Catechism and Humanae Vitae, they have enough information to discern on their own, unless they need or want the counsel of a priest. Mary also believes that if the issue is a medical one, simply consulting with her doctor is enough. Practicing Catholics will have the information they need to make a decision based on what the doctor says. I agree with both.

The issue, yet again, is some people insisting that others don’t have “reason enough” to choose to use NFP in their particular circumstance. Again, that’s a decision only that particular couple can make. Not everyone else.

 

[Rence]

Well, I didn’t intend to address the concept of Church at all. I would agree the Church is that institution founded by Christ, given the keys of the kingdom, protected from error in matters of faith and morals, guided by the Holy Spirit, led in person by the Holy Father, etc.

That Church that we agree is the One True Church has never taught that married couples must consult it before using natural family planning. Certainly couples are required to have just reasons for using NFP, but the Church has never said that it must vet these reasons prior to a couple morally deciding to abstain during the woman’s fertile times.

When you argue that couples “must consult the Church” I wondered where you were getting this from and concluded it was possible that you were referring to prayerful private discernment, because to insist otherwise is to require something of couples that the Church does not require of them herself.

Thank you!

 

[Rau]

How about this to clarify your misunderstanding. The Church must be consulted. One way to do that is through a good priest or spiritual adviser, or an adequate education of Church theology on a matter.

Plainer language is required. By “consult the church”, is meant - make your decision with the benefit of a proper understanding of church teaching. For some, and in some circumstances, a discussion with a priest may be appropriate.

 

[maryjk]

She is already basing her answers on Church teaching.

It just seems that when someone says “the Church,” it is a little ambiguous.

Mary and you are in agreement here. If a couple has read the Catechism and Humanae Vitae, they have enough information to discern on their own, unless they need or want the counsel of a priest. Mary also believes that if the issue is a medical one, simply consulting with her doctor is enough. Practicing Catholics will have the information they need to make a decision based on what the doctor says. I agree with both.

The issue, yet again, is some people insisting that others don’t have “reason enough” to choose to use NFP in their particular circumstance. Again, that’s a decision only that particular couple can make. Not everyone else.

And this is the crux of the matter.

Who needs to be involved in the decision?

I agree with you Rence. Only the couple can make that decision.

 

[thewanderer]

She is already basing her answers on Church teaching. T

Mary and you are in agreement here. If a couple has read the Catechism and Humanae Vitae, they have enough information to discern on their own, unless they need or want the counsel of a priest. Mary also believes that if the issue is a medical one, simply consulting with her doctor is enough. Practicing Catholics will have the information they need to make a decision based on what the doctor says. I agree with both.

The issue, yet again, is some people insisting that others don’t have “reason enough” to choose to use NFP in their particular circumstance. Again, that’s a decision only that particular couple can make. Not everyone else.

I think you need to re-read my post. We are all in agreement here. Even HoosierDaddy, though he is putting more emphasis on forming ones conscience according to the Church than other people are. But ultimately we are all in agreement that it is necessary to form ones conscience according to Church teaching (and that means official teaching not any individual’s interpretations of it) and that once so formed it is not necessary for any couple to make any further consultation.

 

[Rau]

I wonder what approach a priest would take in counselling a couple as to whether certain medical circumstances constituted Just Reasons to use NFP?

I think in the cases which are not black and white (if black and white cases exist at all!), it is very unlikely that he would express a definitive view. More than likely, he would review the relevant elements of the church teaching with the couple and ask them to consider these things and ask God’s guidance, telling them that the decision is theirs.

Of course, we don’t individually all see the same cases as clearly fitting into the black, white or unclear buckets. And I am quite certain that not all priests would reach the same conclusion on any individual case (were they seeking to make a call). I think it is no accident, or lack of development of the theology, that sees the decision being left to individuals and their informed consciences.

 

[severus68]

Please read more carefully. I did not say they must consult a priest. But they must consult the Church.

Odd that you are pushing back so hard on such an easy piece of advice.

How do you consult the Church? Knowing the teachings of the Church and praying is all one has to do.Nothing wrong with consulting a priest but there is no requirement to…

I don’t think Maryk is pushing back anything. You have your opinion, she has hers.

 

[thewanderer]

How do you consult the Church? Knowing the teachings of the Church and praying is all one has to do.Nothing wrong with consulting a priest but there is no requirement to…

I don’t think Maryk is pushing back anything. You have your opinion, she has hers.

Severus, they’re saying the same thing. They just don’t like the way the other person is phrasing things. Everyone is in agreement here.

 

[severus68]

Severus, they’re saying the same thing. They just don’t like the way the other person is phrasing things. Everyone is in agreement here.

Perhaps HD should just make his point(s) more simply?

 

[thewanderer]

thewanderer;11184273:

I hope I’m not intruding, but I think what he’s trying to say is not that you have to consult a priest, but that your decision must be based on Church teaching. So I think he would be perfectly fine with a couple who has carefully formed their conscience according to Church teaching (Humanae Vitae etc) spending time in prayer to discern whether or not they had a good reason to avoid deciding to avoid children on their own without consulting a priest. I think you two actually agree and are speaking past each other. But then again I could be mistaken.

I would agree with that as long as it is a Church formed conscience. And is not necessarily ones “interpretation” or bending of Church theology.

How much more simply do you want him to state it? He says that if a couples conscience is formed according to actual official Church teaching (as opposed to individuals opinions and interpretations of Church teaching) then that couple has sufficiently consulted the Church to make the final decision themselves.

 

[severus68]

How much more simply do you want him to state it? He says that if a couples conscience is formed according to actual official Church teaching (as opposed to individuals opinions and interpretations of Church teaching) then that couple has sufficiently consulted the Church to make the final decision themselves.

I do not need any explanation, thank you. Was just making an observation and I do think HD could have said what he meant more simply. Not all of us have the gift of understanding long and complicated sentences.

 

[Rau]

I wonder what approach a priest would take in counselling a couple as to whether certain medical circumstances constituted Just Reasons to use NFP?

I think in the cases which are not black and white (if black and white cases exist at all!), it is very unlikely that he would express a definitive view. More than likely, he would review the relevant elements of the church teaching with the couple and ask them to consider these things and ask God’s guidance, telling them that the decision is theirs.

Of course, we don’t individually all see the same cases as clearly fitting into the black, white or unclear buckets. And I am quite certain that not all priests would reach the same conclusion on any individual case (were they seeking to make a call). I think it is no accident, or lack of development of the theology, that sees the decision being left to individuals and their informed consciences.

Anyone have thoughts or comments on the above?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Anyone have thoughts or comments on the above?

I agree with it.

(anything else might be confusing.)

 

[severus68]

Anyone have thoughts or comments on the above?

I agree. Each couple has their own circumstances. Only they know their own hearts (other than God).